Hmm. Not sure if that is true or not, but Leonardo is one person in the Milan family who I do believe.

@ Kurt

Pato has started more games? SO WHAT? he has spent less minutes on the pitch!!!

Maybe you misread the arguement zd, I'll show you exactly why I was talking about starts.


He says Pato didn't start 13 games. Does it, or does it not look like we're talking about starts? Oh, and he did start 13 games in the league last season, do you, or do you not agree with that, zd?


See the highlighted bit? Does that say starts or minutes/games? It says starts doesn't it? Hence why I bought up the stats for games started. He also states it wasn't better, but his games:STARTS ratio was better, or do you want to disagree with this as well, zd?


Giancarlo then says he made more starts than pato? Yup, I'll agree with that. But scored less.. eh? He scored less? No. Bojan scored 10 to Pato's 9. Whether they played 1000 games or just 1, the fact remains Bojan scored more goals, or do you disagree?

This is why I was talking about starts. You obviously misread it or something?

P.S. This isn't a shot at you zd, just trying to get my point accross.

What have I got to do with Giancarlo's posts I'm saying Bojan has played 2 and half more games compared to Pato and yet has scored just one more goal. Pato has done better considering he has spent a considerable less time on the pitch.



NO I disagree!

Bojan has played 31 league games and scored 10

Pato has played 18 league games and scored 9. he obviously has done better both in goal:game and goal:minute ratios.

Question: does the minutes played : goals ratio really determine how good a player is?

No. that's why I said on the other thread Pato is not overrated because he did more than scoring 9 goals in 18 games.

But it is obvious for a striker the number of goals is very important and many people judge them based on this.

You're missing the point, zd. The reason I bought up the stats I did was to prove Giancarlo wrong. You're talking about something entirely different. I am not in disagreement with the things you said. I'm not entirely sure why you got involved in the arguement in the first place.

All the things I said are statistically and mathematically correct and so are yours.. but we're talking about two different things! Me and Giancarlo were arguing about 'starts:goals' hence me highlighting the word 'start' so much so you'd realise this

You disagree? Pato scored 9, Bojan scored 10. Giancarlo said he scored more.. I just can't see how you can come to this conclusion, he scored less.

And no Tennie, it doesn't mean they're a better player.

I'll tell you what I meant by that while I'm still awake. Pato has scored more goals per minutes played. How many games he played compared to Bojan is irrelevant and has nothing to do with the facts.

Pato scored more frequently. Regardless, Bojan had far more playing time than Pato. That's a fact.

You can deny the facts all you want, Kurt. It doesn't make you right.

It is also my opinion, Bojan is a special guy as is Alexandre Pato. They shouldn't be called overrated because they are just kids. I think both will be stars in the future. I however think that Pato will score more than Bojan, but that's my own opinion.

Kurt, I understand what you're saying. but just one more thing: the number of goals scored alone has no value at all if it's not considered and examined next to another factor like the number of games played, or the number of minutes. Bojan scored 10 and Pato 9. that's right. but we can't overlook the fact that Bojan did it in 31 games and Pato in 18 games (or 1540 and 1300 minutes respectively). number of games played and goals scored are always next to each other at any website. that's all I've been trying to say.

I wasn't denying facts, everything I put was statistically correct. You just worded your arguement wrongly by saying goals:starts instead of goals:minutes, that's all.

Pato to score more than Bojan? I don't disagree. I think Pato, although he's not a #9 type striker or anything, the position he plays will give him more goals, in my opinion. While Bojan will play a wider role for the most part of his career.. well, as long as he's at Barca I think he probably will.

My last post on the matter, PM me if you feel you want to continue anything.

I did misstate. I'm not exactly feeling well right now.

So I may have misworded. My point is Pato has scored more frequently than Bojan, because Pato has had less playing time than Bojan.

Guys, scoring isn't the only criteria to measure a player's success. Otherwise we'd all be talking the best player of all time were either Pele or Romario. Maradona would be no where near the top.

My $0.02.

Your .02 cents... not mine. Scoring has quite a bit to do with it.

I simply don't think Bojan is better than Pato in any way...

Dear friend, there's no such thing as goals:starts. where have you brought it from? it's goals:appearances. in every website, every official club website, every sport channel, every paper, etc. it's apps(g) not starts(g)!!

Maybe a striker starts 10 games but make 30 appearances overall and score 15.

Does that mean he's scored 15 goals in 10 games? NO. he has scored 15 goals in 30 games...
Again does that mean he has a 1.5 goal per game record?? of course not!! it's 0.5 goals per game.

krkic and pato are at about the exact same stage. It's arguments like these where we start to get a little too far ahead of ourselves. There's no evidence either way that bojan is better OR pato is better..all that's clear is that when the dust settles about 15 years from now we may be talking about 2 of the greatest ever.. Nobody will ever be able to say who out of Zizou or Ronaldo Fenomeno was better than the other..all that can be agreed upon is the word "legends"..with that said Ronaldo scored tons more than Zizou did..



agreed. whether or not Bojan got more minutes of playing time than Pato last season has little to zero meaning when attempting to figure out whose better. Bojan had 10 and Pato 9? that doesnt really say anything to me anyways, who cares about those numbers?..ultimately all we can gauge is quality. players all develop differently, and ultimately their greatness will be defined by what and how much they win, AND how much THEY contributed to these wins..krkic scoring 10 and pato scoring 9 last season goes almost nowhere to explaining how good they both are/will be anyways..i feel it's impossible to gauge at this point how their careers will go..

one this is for sure that neither of them are like messi. cuz messi came onto the scene, and after his first year on the senior squad he was their best player and his country's best player..

Not Pele, me no like him!



Are you taking the piss? I showed you why I was talking about goals:starts.. because that's what Giancarlo said, do you even read my posts and the posts I quote.

I never use goals:appearances, it's the most misleading stat in football when you look at goals. Marlon Harewood scored 5 goals in 23 appearances last season for Villa. Do you think that's a good record for a striker? I certainly don't. Yet only Ronaldo had a better goal scoring rate than him in the whole of the EPL last season. Very misleading indeed.

OK, I know why you used starts:goals. no piss-taking! but agree that it's as misleading as apps:goals. that's why I always got with minutes played:goals because that's the most accurate one of all.

Quite a bit. But not all. What would you say about players who are vital for a team but don't get on the scoring sheet so often because they like to keep back? Stats will be just that. Stats. How many goals did Rivaldo scored? Or Juninho to a lesser extent? They were about as vital to the Brazil team as any.

Of course, scoring goals has it's perks and benefits, I'm not the one to deny that. Besides goals are never a bad thing, as long as you're the one scoring them.

Me neither. But I thought you disliked Maradona more than him? What with is hands and God stuff.

Yeah sure, I understand what you meant but to me the work rate isn't something technical, it's more of a personality aspect, Seedorf for example can run but he doesn't want to, and even when he was young he was playing that way. Pato could improve a lot of things but I don't think (I hope I'm wrong) he'll be a hard worker on the pitch!



No but it tells you how lethal he is. Someone like Trezeguet has a high goal ratio but it doesn't make him great player!

I must add, the Serie A is one of the most defensive leagues in the world, so I think 9 goals here says more about Pato, then the 10 Bojan had in the La Liga...

As long as he keeps hitting the back of the opponent's net, that's alright with me
But I think he will improve his fighting spirit, because everybody involved in his career wants him to. don't be premature and don't write him off yet. that's all I can say

Trezgay is an average player at best. There are far better players than him, both skill and technique wise.

How about putting an IMO at the start of your comment? because maybe some people rate him highly.

IMHO he's a funking penalty-missing idiot. But yeah, I can live with that, some people like him. Maybe they have their reason, and I completely and wholeheartedly respect that, but I'm personally not so much of a fan of Henry let along Trezagay. He's a good player that's known on the international stage, but personally I never saw too much in him. Only things that almost all other strikers have. Nothing special.

My honest $0.02. Of course, you are free to think otherwise.

I'm a fan of Trezy... especially after that important penalty kick he missed in 2006...

Hey, please do let Trez take penalties both for club and country. Don't forget his miss in the CL finals.

I agree he's not a good penalty taker (I wonder why his coaches hand him them in the first place...) but he's a great poacher. he has scored lots of important goals against big teams too (those against Madrid inevitably come to mind). he ain't no small striker...

Oh nonono. Trez is a very good striker indeed, Zebra cooties notwithstanding -- I didn't mean to imply otherwise. It's just that he's known for a couple of significant penalty misses.

Personally I don't think there's anything wrong with his fighting spirit. His first few games showed how eager he was to get the ball back, drop deep and help in the build up play. He just got a couple of unjuries later on, especially the one against Fiorentina and he became a bit hesitant in the way he played. It's only natural for a kid his age to become reluctant a bit. Fearing he'll get a really serious injury might play on his mind and that porbably why he's become so hesitant

It's not his form. I watched a couple of his games with Brazil and especially in the friendlies and the first 2 games of the Olympics he played really well. It's just in his head, and with a couple of good games he'll get back into the swing of things.

Personally I don't know why Pato is being compared to Robinho, first of all there's a big age gap, in football that 5 year age gap is counted in dog years. Robinho had 2 years with Madrid were he was a complete dud and did nothing but do step overs and lose the ball while Pato has scored some crucial goals for us in his first year and undoubtedly will score more in the future.

As for the whole Robinho and the EPL, I personally don't think he'll make it, he can be compared to Cristiano in terms of ability and both I wouldn't consider particularly smart players, both are quick and techincally gifted players, but Cristiano has the physique for the EPL while Robinho is a light weight. Would I think either of them could make it in Italy I don't think so, in EPL Ronaldo has acres of space to run into in every game, that kind of space would never be allowed in the Serie A, you have to be a smart player to play in Italy, which I think neither of them are.

Robinho won't cope the same as Ronaldo in the EPL, no way. Robinho is a tiny guy, in a league that demands alot of strength. Ronaldo copes because he's actually pretty big and strong. Robinho will do okay, but I don't think he'll ever become the Worlds best player over here.

I don't know why coaches insist on having Trez taking penalty kicks... he's never been very good at that.

Exactly what I'm thinking. It's ridiculous to compare the 2

Exactly, after that Fiorentina injury he became so cautious about making challenges. I'm glad someone else noticed that too

Wasn't the injury in Fiorentina from an awkward fall, not from a challenge? I don't quite remember clearly... maybe I'm mixing it up with someone else.

He was challenging for the ball and consequently twisted his ankle. wasn't a fall.

No comment

None needed. An R99 type of a free kick. No swing, but straight and immense power. I was talking to my brother 'Gee, what a joke, they're going to let him take it, when guys like Sheva, Kaka, Seedorf and Janku were there?'. And guess what, a few seconds later, the joke was on me.

You should have seen my face. Seriously. You go, Duck!

(R99? more like Sheva of old days I'd say)

I too was surprised to see him willing to take it. kinda unexpected. he really made my night a few seconds later thuogh

Maybe Sheva too, but I've seen early free kicks from Ronaldo, and he just put them straight through an opening in the wall. Shevchenko is known to bend them, not like Beckham, but still bend them enough.

I'll give a comment:

****ing happy, huh Ancelotti? It ****ing feels good, doesn't it? Now keep ****ing with these kids and their confidence... You might have sent Gourcuff packing, but ****ing bench Pato and play with his confidence and see who will leave this time... I dare you, I double dare you...

Now go have a cigarette and have those orgasmic dreams about Gattuso, Brocchi, Ambrosini and Emerson getting it on...

Kinda unfair. I think.


We hear he had a productive discussion with Pato, and the next thing he's done is play the kid. Maybe there were some issues to be sorted out. It doesn't look for one second in that pic of zd's, like they have a problem with each other.

perfection can only describe this post. i agree with you 100%.

100% fair. Go Mad Max!!!

STFU dozer...

20.

Man, I can't stop watching Pato's goal. what a cracker..

Lol @ Kaka's face impressions.

Great way to break the 'duck' for the season.

First European goal and no 'heart' celebration..