?

I really don't know what you're trying to say.

you can laugh it off but your still not proving your point

If someone like Iniesta is going to come, sure, cash in on him asap! seriously, who's going to come? I can't think of anyone..

If you want him to dominate the Siena's of football that is fine, I would rate him much higher if he done that against Manu or merda.

also ronnie took over the sampdoria match...like hardcore...

i will just reiterate my original point. Wether you like him or not, he was one of our brightest performers in a team that had so few, We need an overhaul, not to upgrade the positions we already have down for the moment! would you guys HONESTLY get ANOTHER WINGER instead of GK, RB, Mid.

Oh but I am, I have shown you 18 games where he didn't score and all you can come up with is excuses like "Oh and that stat shows nothing, there was a period of time where all our players were injured and ronaldinho was really unlucky hit the post, goalkeepers making final good saves" and "Oh and dinho was a winger this season, his job wasn't to score goals" - we don't play wingers and then "its not all about the goals" yet one of the stats that seems to crop up is that he's our second highest scorer!

+1

I agree that he was a very good player, but I just think in certain games he could have and should have done a lot more. It's all well and good playing blinders against Siena but I'd prefer him to rise up in the big games.

And it would've been nice to see him step up a little more when Pato and Nesta were both out.

Umm yes we do,maybe thats why dinho and pato drift into the wings. I did say its not about the goals, for a winger goals are not important, its the fact that he either plays well and contributes to the team and gives assists. the fact that he is our leading goal scorer shows us that he did more than he should of done. besides this stat shows us more than the "18 games stat" of yours, as this shows what dinho did the whole season while yours just shows something he didn't do in 18 games, besides your stat shows nothing, so what if he didn't score in 18 games he did give many assist during that time and that all that counts. whats the point of looking at things negatively, when we have a bright side?
Lstn i am not saying Dinho is back or he is the best, but what i am saying is that its unethical for us to kick him out and sign another winger when we have other problems to think about, its not fair for dinho since he did have a good season at the end of the day.

All you said was that you had not seen Ronnie dominate a game. He dominated Siena.

He did do pretty well against Man U if I remember correctly. Had a goal and an assist. Man U had quite a few bogus goals ( the wiff goal) and some pretty lenient refereeing decisions ( Ferdinand's demolition of Ronnie just outside the box that was not called) and we deserved to win that game.



@ Fishy

I'll agree with the Pato point. We could've used more goals and assists from him when Pato was gone though I believe 6 assists from him during that period is not too bad, but goals would have been nice. As for stepping up when Nesta was out, Dinho has really no control over the defense or should he be held responsible for it. It would have been better if say Kaladze had stepped up and played like his old self.



But as I said before, when you spray poop (Milan Reserves ex. Mancini) with deodorant (Ronnie), it will still smell like poop.

I'm just tired of these silly arguments. People have no trouble at all defending Ronaldinho at all costs and yet I feel like I'm trying to push a boulder (galliani?) uphill when I struggle to say anything postive about a whole lot of other players whose positive contributions are brushed aside.

And I still think that what Ronaldinho contributed is being overemphasized while the important contributions of some other players are...not so much being noticed. It's clear that people disagree on the point and that is absolutely their right. I'm just not going to argue about it any more.

Exactly, big players can be relied upon in the big games and as much as he had a very good season he still wasn't there in the big games we played.

hasn't dinho scored 4 goals against juve? didn't he score against roma? didn't he score against man united? didn't he score against madrid? the only big team he messed up against was inter, and even messi didn't do anything to them.

+1

I just cannot be bothered to argue anymore as I have far better things to do.

Exactly. He's got no leg to stand on, Ronnie DID turn up in the big games.

Um. What about the derby then?

Sure, I'll conceed 2 out of the 10+ big games of the year.

Do you also concede that perhaps Milan has other players who are halfway decent?

I've seen him play in his Barca days, and let me tell you, aside from when he had the ball he was ridiculous. Ronnie imo has improved in leaps and bounds when it comes to actually tracking back and working for the team. But back then everyone was blinded by the R10 magic and no one took notice. Imo, I'd rather have this Dinho, who is far less selfish and lazy then the untouchable Barca Dinho. There was a time that I just couldn't stand the site of him. I think sitting on the bench and being called Gordinho has more then humbled him


EXACTLY!!!!

I don't understand why everyone is making this out to be some team Dinho thing. When to me it's only logical that you don't sell undoubtedly one of your best performers when you have so much more problems in the squad it's ridiculous. That some want to sell the good points of the team while over looking the real problems.

Now fish tell your person to not jump on me for this because I'm only using this as a metaphore. It's like me saying that we should sell Nesta at any decent price we get becaue he's injury prone It's stupid!


Dinho not scoring for a long period of time isn't a stat. The stat is the overall numbers that are accumulated at the end of the season. And the stats don't lie. Dinho is the top assist man in the league and our joint top scorer. Every forward goes through dry spells, Dinho is certainly not perfect as he had a few stinkers this season, no one is saying that he is here.

And Seedorf can do the same thing? Are you really serious man? Dinho might have a lazy bone in his body but Seedorf takes the cake in that department. I've seen him mess up passes shorter then a meter because he's so lazy. Plus Seedorf can never make as many assists, not even Pirlo, neither of them are as accurate as Dinho when it comes to giving that final inch perfect ball.

Plus we've tried Seedorf in that wide attacking position this season and it was an epic fail. He's huffing and puffing by the 15th minute and can't even run.


Agreed, but unless I know for sure that we have a 100% solid gold proof backup that would replace Dinho and be an instant hit that will get us instant results there is nothing anyone can say or do to convince me that selling him would be a good idea.

And come on, The wage thing is BS, since we pay such high wages to players who don't even make the bench but the one that's weighing on us is Dinho's wage? Come on! He doesn't get injured, he performs consistantly most of the time plus the stats show why he is paid what he is, also he sells shirts


So you wanted him to go play as a defender??

Dinho got it 10 times harder when Pato got injured as most of the opposition's defensive focus was on him. And when you have 2 strikers that are not as mobile ahead of you it will make it even harder. But fact is that he still managed to make most of the assists for the goals we scored during that period. I don't know what else you expected him to do short of walking the ball into the opposition's net in every game


Again, trying to make this into some Brazilian agenda. Even though you didn't say it I know that's what you meant by it. I don't understand why you have to bring in other players into this since it involves Dinho. I didn't see you complaing when me and kurt would have one of our never ending arguments regarding Rino and Ambro.

And we've all complemented players who deserved to be complemented this season. If this was a Bori vs Hunter debate you know that I would be behind Bori 100% as I think he was great this season, and I'm not even talking about his goals when I say this.

And other players are not being noticed? Everyone has raved about Antonini, Nesta, Thiago, Bori and Ambro this season, So I can't see your point on that one, aside from trying to point out that only the Brazilians are complemented on this team while the others (Italian) are treated like seconds, when that is simply not true

^ +1...han2503 said it all and please stop about dinho cuz this is summer transfers thread, not dinho thread...

No, I don't really think it's a brazilian thing. It's more of a 'not the local boys' thing. I think everyone on the board but me, Kurt, and whoarethepatriots preferred - vocally - Flamini to either of the other defensive mids (and I do not recall you ever raving about him). I've seen repeated comments this season about how Nesta's past it and Thiago's carrying him. I've seen a lot of 'Borriello sucks, sell him' comments; that said, on this one it seems to be about even with the 'Huntelaar sucks, sell him' sentiment. The one exception has been Antonini.

I mantain that for the majority of boardmembers there is a bias - conscious or not - against the Italian players on the squad and that the foreigners - some at least, to include Pato, Silva, Ronaldinho and Flamini this season - are held to a much lighter standard than are Borriello, Nesta, Ambro, etc.

Woah, absolutely 100%. Antonini, Pato, Ambro to name just a few.

So then how does it work? We pay for example 8m to dinho than after taxes his wage is 4m?

I'm not sure the tax rate is at 50% in Italy but basically yeah. They pay income tax like everyone else. According to the 2008 audit (the most recent one published) player wages in total were 162.13 million for 48 total players. We paid a total of 1.3 million in income tax -- I correct myself there, didn't think we paid any - but it's not indicated who it's for. Even so, 1.3 million is less than 1% of 162 million.

I've got a friend who's working on a financial analysis of the club, will share data when that's done.

the tax rate in Italy is 43% for anyone earning over €75,000 p.a

My question to you guys all is why are we arguing over Ronaldinho like he's kaka?


He is worth at most 15-20m Euros. He is 30 years old. Hi swage demands are high. Who are we exactly going to sell him to and what is the garuantee that the transfer money will be used wisely?


I personally think we should focus on other areas like fullbacks/midfield/striker etc that require attention.

Well I think you're the only one that sees that. And that's why it irritates me so much when you bring that up. You make me fell like a cannot even say a positive thing about a player that is not Italian because you'll immediately jump to the conclusion that we have some anti Italian agenda, when that is not the case. I personally love everything that is Italian, I support the Azzurri, Milan, Ferrari and my favourite foods are pizza and pasta, yet I also like Flamini's playing style, think Thiago Silva is a great defender in the making, Pato is awesome and that Dinho redeemed himself, at least in my eyes. I don't understand how that makes me biased toward the Italians, seeing as most of my favourite players are that and find it just as easy to complement them as it is to complement Pato, Flamini and the others you mentioned.

At the end of the day this is club footbal, if you don't want to see any foreigners on the team you might as well only watch the Azzurri every two years...

Also Nesta has been nothing short of bowed down to on this forum this season, Boriello yes has been criticised by some but strikers tend to evoke that reaction from people. Ambro is a moot point for me, I admit that e was amazing for the first half of the season, maybe even through January, and I've admitted this a million times even though it pains me Although I still think that Rino on a good day wipes his @ss out

wow, Thats shocking!

+1 beautiful post

Well I don't really get what you're trying to say here blue. But basically no one here is saying that Dinho is in anyway untouchable. But let's face it, he was great last season, and given the fact that we have so many other problem areas in the squad we should no be paying attaention to an area (Dinho's position) that is in good shape when the other areas of the team are the real problem not Dinho

Basically don't fix what's not broken.

My last post re this debate:

I agree with han, Jack, Dracoris, etc.
Disagree X-Off, I_Ross, Fishdoll, etc.

Finito. oh that's so easy!

What i'm trying to say is if we could sell him for a decent price (30m), which we can't; I would be all for it. But given our mgmt's incompetence in the past few years; selling dinho will be a mistake as we probably will pocket the money instead of spending it.

I say keep him because there are other areas that need more attention.

No, I don't think I'm the only one. I'm just the only one stubborn enough to comment on it.

You guys are the ones who make me feel I can't say anything positive about Ambro or Pippo or Pirlo or Nesta or quite a few others without being slammed for it -- and take a look, han, there's been rather a lot in the last 6 months that's been all 'Silva's the best cb we have, Nesta's past it, glad his contract is up' stuff.

Admitted, Antonini is the one we all seem to agree has done well.

That said, the only time I recall you complimenting Ambrosini is when it's followed by...'but he's sucked since january, Flamini should start in his place' or something like that.

I have no problem at all with players being praised or criticized if such is warranted. What I'm saying and have BEEN saying for the last couple of years here is that it's not being done equally to all players on this board.

LOL

Cop out!!!

We were linked with Simplicio earlier this year as he was on free transfer this summer. We can officially cross him off the list now

I'd like Bale, I think. As a LM though, not LB. I think a Antonini, Bale, Dinho left side could work out really well.

Ambro has been a big favourite this season, and noe one has jumped on anyone for complementing him, Pippo I'm meh about these days, I think he's finished but whatever, he'll probably keep playing with a cane, I just don't like him tarnishing his past. I even have an old Pippo shirt from his old Juve days that's how much I liked him, I just don't like what he's become that's all. I still don't understand the Nesta bit as I don't recall ever seeing anything negative towards him except for the mistake he made against Man U which I personally am sill too stubborn to admit that it was an actual mistake

And o ahead and complement Pirlo all you want, I will only revel in it as a I love Pirlo, I even love the way he runs as strange as that is, and I can't wait to see him kick @ss in the WC

Ambro like I said is Ambro to me. I've admitted when he was actually good and kept it at that, but obviously I wanted him out the moment he started playing badly, but maybe I am just a tiny bit biased on this issue It wasn't really about Flamini, even though I do like him and did think that he should have played in the latter stages of the season.

I think every player on this team has been criticised when deserved.

Pato has been criticised, same goes for Flamini, Rino, Seedorf, Hunter, Bori, etc. But usually all after certain games where they played badly.

I still think you're looking into something that is not really there. Everyone has their favourites, whatever nationality they are, and tey will be biased towards them, I personally have favourites that are Italian, Brazilian and French, that does not make me a traitor because I like Thiago Silva, or Flamini. I think this is a very black and white way of thinking, like there is no in between

In reply to the rumours, No thanks to L.Fabiano, didn't want him last summer and I certainly don't want him now, same goes for Bale.

Are we acually going to be linked to someone decent at one point this summer window??

No, han, you're not getting what I'm saying.

But hey, I'm not going to argue with the collective consciousness here any more. It just isn't worth it to me. I'll keep my opinions to myself regarding players.

I kind of like Bale (as a player!), why not?

And I don't think you understand where I'm coming from either.

I think everyone should be allowed to state whether they like player X or player Y without having to answer to the nationality issue. I personally don't care about where a plaer comes from and that should apply to everyone else here. I just feel like everytime a foreign player is being dicussed you'll come in with your usual ultimatum which is the fact that the player is not Italian so it's obvious why we're defending him. I'm just not comfortable with it...

Nah, he only adjusts his hair and looks pretty.

Lets all just grab a beer and drink our disagreements away!

^^

-

@ han

No he DOES NOT look pretty!! he has a great body, though!

And I'm not comfortable being jumped on every time I say 'I think Pippo is good' or 'I don't like Flamini, he fouls too much' or 'I think Nesta is better than Silva' or even something reasonably benign like 'Favster had a good game'. Because people will pull the nationality card on me and I don't think it's necessarily the case. If it's not about the players collectively perceived as the 'stars' (and to my mind right now for MF this does NOT include either Pirlo or Nesta) then it seems easier to be hypercritical and to overlook positive contributions unless you have a complete breakout year like Antonini has had. It goes both ways. The only reason I'm stating what I believe firmly to be the case is because I'm tired - very tired - of seeing the same constant double standard.

So for the good of the community, I'm going to just shut up on the issue. If you all want to think i'm biased or crazy or whatever, go for it. I'm tired of the arguments and tired of having to defend myself whenever I think perhaps someone did a good job or bad job. It doesn't seem like folks want to hear what I've got to say anyway. I'll stick to translations and financial analysis.

Well, that depends. I want Italian beer, is everyone else going to be OK with that?

Hardly to call him a reject. He is AWESOME

(I wouldn't mind Van der Vaart in a Milan jersey.)

You can't think of anyone? Krasic, Pastore, Jovetic, Robinho, Ganso, van der Vaart. Honestly, I'd prefer if we signed a trequartista and returned to the old 4-3-1-2 line-up. Pastore is my dream, but that tw@t of Zamparini will never let him go for less than 30-35m.

If we're going for any Real players it would have to be Gago, Higuain and VdV. All the others are not worth our time. I can't see Higuain beingan option anytimes soon.

Zeddie, you are disturbing on many levels!