"couldn't beat us" is a quote that speaks for itself and the level of ambition the English have for this game.

In all seriousness though Italy outclassed England in the Euros and had they advanced it would have been a huge injustice. In all honesty Italy should have won that game in the 90 minutes.

But I don't really get what your initial point was about pace... I'm supposing you meant that Italy's lack of pace would be beneficial for England. But in what way? Since going by your latest comment you don't expect to win, just to not lose

I really don't think the state of the domestic league has much baring here though, was the league any better in 2012, or even in 2006 when it was already going down hill not to mention all the corruption that had just been revealed?

Personally I think this side is as good as the 2006 one, probably better as a collective because that squad had some real stinkers thanks to Lippi and his obsession with Palermo players

Yes that Italy side had bigger names in defence like Canna, Nesta and Zambro, while Rino was probably in the middle of having 2 of his best seasons. but other than that. Totti and Del Piero were both irrelevant, Totti was a starter but I always saw him as a peripheral figure in the team, there was Camoranesi, Perrotta, Grosso, Gila, Iaquinta, etc all starting regularly in that world cup.

He's the exact same player as Modric. Identical style, identical technique. Italy have a gem in their hands. Definitely gonna become a football great, if he already isn't.



Um, like Han said, the quality of the league has really got nothing to do here. England have the best league in the world yet their NT is pretty average currently compared to other powerhouses.

I think Italy have about 14-15 very good players in there, who know each-other well. Their midfield is as good as Germany's and Spain's IMO. I honestly think you're underestimating them.

Errrr no, England have the most competitive league of the big 3, not the best. Didn't you see how their clubs struggled in ALL European competitions last season?

Spain, now, is the best league, thanks to having 3 titans challenging for the title and a very strong Bilbao.

I've never been fond of Spain on any level but anyone calling the EPL stronger than La Liga currently, is, well, absolutely potty! And I mean that fondly of course



We shall see but I stand by my last 4 prediction. I think Italy are poor and it'll be reflected in their world cup.

England have had an all English final in the CL, have had 2 teams winning the CL since the last 2 world cups (2006 - now), and always have at least one club representing the league in the semi finals. How is that poor?

Yet in every one of those WCs the English side has just been shameful in their showings imo

Spain has 2 giants and an overall poor league where the other teams struggle to stay financially afloat each year. Atletico had a massive season thanks to their coach who made them a strong unit. But this is a side who has already been picked off of its best players. And that's just 2 or 3 who are really class, the rest are all pretty average who were part of a great collective, once tha collective is picked apart they won't be that great.


Can you explain how this side is poor?

This is a side that got to the Euro finals 2 years ago, did very well in the confed cup just last summer, went through their group undefeated and qualified with 2 games to spare.

No they don't have the star names Brazil, Spain and Argentina have. I just don't get where that poor tag comes from. But make no mistake, Italy do their best when they're underestimated and derided by the international media, and I seriously hope everyone, especially the English think the same as you do

If you can quote my saying the EPL is poor I'll be interested to see it.



I agree, hence the league has become more competitive and the big 2 are now big 3, borderline 4. And you will have noticed I haven't got Spain as a semifinalist.




Got to the Euro finals 2 years ago? What do you mean? As for their group, it was awful. A completely hideous Czech Rep (their great teams are something of the past now) and a rather weak Denmark. Even a half decent team could have won that group with something to spare.



I don't rate Spain or Argentina any more than I do Italy.

But make no mistake, they'll beat England. Uruguay and Italy will go through from that group.

Yeah, but the game was 0-0. Did I say we would win? No. Did I say we would draw? No. I just think a lack of pace certainly helps England. Italy didn't have any pace at the Euros and it helped. They couldn't get in behind, they didn't have players that would run at us. It was shots from distance or them trying to play the ball through our defence and not being able to. I don't really know what you expect me to say. One minute you say Italy are better than England, the next you find it odd I think us not losing is good thing.

As for La Liga, I think it's an average league overall. People make the mistake of judging a league by it's very top teams. We've had about 7 different European Finalists over the past decade or so. Most countries have never had that in their history.

Sorry, that poor comment on Italy was still gnawing at my mind so I wrote it there with regards to my bit on the EPL.

No you didn't say it was poor, but you implied that it was going through a rough patch. My point was that during the last 2 WCs, English teams have been great in Europe but were still absolute pish (as you Scottish laddies would say) in every major tournament they played


But really, during Spain's last major 3 tournament wins there were only really 2 teams in the thing, Atletico have only really emerged as a force over these past 2 seasons or so and I personally think it will end with this season as them selling their best players now will spell the end of them imo

Sorry, forgot your predictions. Belgium, Brazil, and who were the other 2?


Euro 2012 runners up was a big achievement imo, especially for a side that no one really touted as a possible challenger. And once they rolled up against Germany were completely written off. I think having a momentum in competitive tournaments is a good indication of how a side will perform imo

And HEY NOW, Malta was in that group!!!

But seriously, when are these qualifying groups really that hard? But even the biggest team sometimes still manage to flounder


Nah, rating Belgium a totally inexperienced side but not Spain or Argentina? I think Spain will still do seriously well, I don't think they'll win it but I can see them in the semis easily. Argentina are a toss up but the talent they have is unquestionable.


lol so we're arguing whether Italy are good or not, but the person who thinks they're poor predicts that they'll beat England and the person who thinks they're good predicts that they won't beat England. What a pair we make

Exactly. Except for Barça and Madrid, the rest are all Europa League level. Atletico doesn't even count cos next season they'll be a former shadow of this season's side. Mark my words. Seasons like this happen only once in a lifetime for clubs like Atletico.

It's only happening to Atletico because Chelsea have just taken their best 4 players! I now agree Atleti are unlikely to sustain this next season simply because no team on earth could cope with their star striker, goalie, midfielder and LB all leaving.

And that's without even mentioning Miranda and Turan who'll probably move too.

Shame, they've become prey to the vultures.

Mainly because the EPL and its best teams don't rely on English players. The last two sides to win CL from England, Utd and Chelsea, relied on Ronaldo and Drogba. Whereas Barca and Atleti/Real relied on their Spanish core and Bayern on their German.

The English squad, while not abominable, is so far off what it's been in the even recent past it's almost sad to see. I look at that squad and it is just so below even an England team from a decade ago.



Germany and Uruguay. Stand to pocket £750 if I'm right!



Germany ALWAYS make the semis in pretty much every tournament, and I agree that Italy did very well to make that final. Just think other nations are even stronger today and by Italy's normal standards their current team isn't really that special.



All true but don't use an unbeaten record as evidence of a team's strength



Spain were inexperienced in 2008

Belgium are very very strong and I think they can do real damage in this tournament.



Beats arguing over Milan

I was just making a sort of joke because your expectations are to not lose rather than to win.

With regards to the game in 2012, Italy had a bag of chances, not to mention hitting the post once or twice. Plus, I think that England defence was better than this one imo. John Terry and Ashley Cole imo still should be in there as they're better defenders (note my enphasis on defenders) than Baines and Jagielka (did I spell that correctly?). Not to mention that in the Euros Hodgson was basically playing to lines of defence. Young was more pre-occupied with covering Abate's runs than actually trying to do anything attack-wise for example, I don't really think England's new, young and exciting (as per the advertising done by the English pundits) players will really want to put in all that work. Yes, they're trying to go in the Liverpool direction but there was one big flaw with Liverpool this season, their defending was absolutely horrible.

Agreed on that 2nd bit about La Liga and the EPL


True, but it's also true that most of the English players were also important parts of those squads that won the CL.


Hope you don't win! I want Italy in there


But as I mentioned before it's not really all about the names, it's how the team gels and works together. Italy in 06 were far from the best team in that tournament. the 2002 squad were miles ahead of that 06 one and this current one imo.


I still think it's an important factor, not to mention that Prandelli has only had 2 losses in competitive games throughout his tenure as coach of the NT


I don't think they had as much young raw talent as Belgium currently do, most of their players were established and were winning CLs with their club. But agree that in 2008 they were considered a team of underachievers and really banished that stereotype


It sure does

Even if they don't sell anyone it still wouldn't matter. When a club overachieves one season, the next season players are drained of motivation and energy, morally and physically. Milan in 2007 and Inter in 2010 are prime examples of that.

Fair enough. I have to be honest and realistic about expectations though. To me, it would be a successful World Cup if we make the round of 16. Ro16 isn't special, but it would be a big achievement to get out of that group.

I personally think both England and Italy will qualify. That first game will obviously be a draw but I think both teams can do well against the South Americans, Especially if Suarez isn't fit and Cavani is in his PSG form

Whoever gets out of this group will get to the quarters imo unless they f@ck up big time in the round of 16 against a team from group C

Inter in 2010 lost their manager. Jose (and his PtB tactic) is why they were so good. Nothing else.

Milan squeezed the last iota out of an aging world class squad and rested on their laurels, and did the same again in 2011 after Scudetto.

But Atleti are a young world class team filled with superb ethics and great tactics. Well...they WERE...

I just don't think Atleti overachieved. After all, did the 'overachieving' Borussia side who made the CL final in 2013 come close to winning the Bundesliga that season? No...they were 30 points behind Bayern!

How long do you think it will take before Atleti lose their coach as well?

They lost their coach and suddenly they're losing 5-2 to Schalke like a Sunday league football club? Nah... They had all their players sans Balotelli, but you could clearly see that they were drained of any energy and motivations.

And no, I don't consider Dortmund overachieving because they have a fantastic team. They won the Bundesliga twice in a row, then made the CL final displaying some fantastic football. This season they suffered from a vast string of injuries that decimated their team and made it quite difficult to compete at all fronts (even though they nearly KO'd Madrid in the process).

You're damned if you have realistic expectations & you're damned if you want them to do well.

The thing is, it feels like England pundits and the majority of fans are continually trying to play down their chances, but underneath the surface you can almost feel like that constant need they have to restrict themselves from overhyping their team, their young talent (they're sill doing this a lot anyway).

So it mostly feels like they're fake trying to underplay everything when it comes to England atm, but you know that underneath all that there's that English reporter just screaming on the inside to stir things up, declare them as world beaters and then start rubbing his hands gleefully at the prospect bashing and slamming them down when they return home as quarter finalists once again

Ribery out of the WC.

Falcao, Ribery...................... Oxlade Chamberlain

First 2 are, in my opinion, hilariously overrated players.

What can we actually say? Saying we can get out of a pretty tough group is a realistic expectation for this team, however that's apparently downplaying. Yet should anyone suggest they could do more than that are overrating them and calling them World Beaters?

I have no idea what we're even meant to say without being criticised & people thinking there's some pre-agenda

---

Also, agreed on Ribery, almost never turns up in big games.

Agreed about Ribery as well. One of the most overrated players currently playing.

Don't think Falcoa is overrated in any way, Ribery, yes


The problem is that it's your own media that will feast on the leftovers the most gleefully, which I find relatively hilarious.

Like I said above, I expect England to qualify, some of the things I read and listened to were even trying to downplay that possibility.

Every time I read something about England they're making a point of mentioning how the team is going into their first tournament in a while without all the hype. Imo they're hyping the young players the most, and if they fail to show up I'd hate to think the reception they'll get

Only one will. England lose against Italy, they are out, they draw they are out, they win, Italy is out. I am fairly confident that beating Uruguay in their continent is going to be tough for both teams. They have the most world titles for a reason. All relatively safe guesses, of course, but I feel that only one of Italy or England will move ahead.

Yeah Uruguay are essentially at home, that's why I think they'll go through.

Reus hurt tonight, his World Cup in doubt.

A draw wouldn't be the end of the world for either team imo, and I have a sneaking suspicion that that's what they'll aim for.

But if either team wins that opener... Yeah, whoever loses is most likely out of this before its even started

Still, my prediction is England and Italy to qualify. Simply cannot stand Uruguay, even more than England, and that's saying something

Must say I feel you just totally ignored everything I just said

Agreed - I think Simeone will move. If they'd won CL I think he'd have stayed but now with the team being decimated I think he will be attracted by a big-money move to some rich team. Probably in Russia.

I'd love him at Milan but that's not happening.

I personally wouldn't

No, I honestly don't think I did.

Your rebuttal was very weak then and filled with conjecture. And I think we can leave it there.

He's arguably the best tactician around right now. Indeed, the only mistakes I saw him make were in the final. And I knew what he was trying to do, it just wasn't good enough.

Nah, that's just you not wanting to be proved wrong. Conjecture? What conjecture? C'mon now, Danny...

Got no issue being proven wrong, but you didn't do so. To humour you though...I will reply.

Yup. That was the kind of shoddy result they had under Zacherroni, Mancini, Benitez...
That often happens when a great team loses its marquee manager.



Because Jose left and was replaced by infamously poor Benitez who couldn't handle domestic football outwith Spain.



No, I was referring to the season before this one where they made the CL final but were MILLLLLLLLLLLLES off Bayern in the league - 30 - points behind.

This season, without Goetze especially, they really struggled - nowhere near the same force in CL albeit still about the same in the league.

But the point is about Atleti - how have they overachieved? You say Dortmund 'have' a fantastic team. Does this mean Atleti don't?

Why are you even mentioning Zaccheroni? We're obviously talking about post-Calciopoli Inter here, when they grounded themselves as a local powerhouse. Before Mourinho took over they had two excellent seasons under Mancini. Granted, they failed in Europe, but so did Mourinho in his first season with them.

I'm not saying Mourinho's departure didn't have any effects on the team, but the players couldn't handle another season at extreme levels after giving their 110% in the prior one. In fact, that's why I think Mourinho left in the first place. He sniffed the inevitable deterioration and decided to leave as a winner.



Or maybe because the players didn't want Benitez? Yeah, remember those phone calls between Mourinho and the senators? Another aspect to take into consideration.



Klopp made it pretty clear that that season they were going to focus on the CL after coming from two consecutive league titles. So, that 30-point gap isn't such a shock.

And yes, this season they did struggle, but you yet fail to take into account the many, many injuries that plagued the team. Anyone who watches the Bundesliga can confirm this.



No, I don't think they do. Atletico's primary and only strength is the collective and discipline. They have very average players and play some boring and unattractive football, unlike Dortmund who have great players in every role and are a feast to watch. Plus Dortmund have been much more consistent than Atletico overall.

England don't have group from hell , Italy are on a dire run, Uruguay are shaky and Costa Rica should be beaten... but here are my predictions !

England vs Italy 1-1 or 2-1 to either side.

England vs Uruguay 2-2

England vs Costa rica 3-0

With englands defence we will concede goals we're just going to have to outscore them.

We could make it past the group stage anything more is a bonus , its all well and good the players have the mentality we are in it to win it , its good for the morale of the England camp. But as an england supporter i'm tired of putting so much pressure on them going there to win it , its just better to have lower expectations...

or we could just put on this track http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJqimlFcJsM

I don't know, I think this group is pretty much unpredictable.

It's not just about the tactical mistakes in the final. How he behaved was absolutely disgusting imo. I really can't stand the guy


What would be your predictions though Fillipo?

tbh he can urinate all over the ref and gesture obscene insults to the fourth official and opposition fans if he wants, I don't really care.

We need success, not 'dignity'. Of course this is a different thing to the hierarchy mistreating our current manager.

...so this proves me wrong? Ok...and breathe

It tells you that you shouldn't treat someone's opinion which you disagree with as conjecture.

Most opinion is conjecture. We base our views on our perceived facts, and use hyperbole, exaggeration, emotion and rhetoric to espouse them. Our opinions are caked in our own values - of course they're conjecture. Basic semantics

Not if an opinion is based on verifiable data, though. That doesn't make it conjecture. But that's besides the point.

You've disregarded my arguments as weak in the last two pages, even though I've perfectly explained my stance with all the necessary information in order to give it enough credibility. I never intended to prove you wrong, but it seemed to me that you didn't want to be proved wrong, which is different. Instead of acting like a wiseass, you could have simply argued back, or just agreed to disagree and move on.

Reus out of the WC as well.

Yes it does. If I say I think Ronaldo is the world's best player, I've based it on what I believe are verified data. But it's still just my bloody opinion and Messi fans will disagree.



One post. I dismissed one post. Stop over reacting!



You didn't though, your response didn't make your case any stronger, it only showed the weaknesses in your argument.
Saying that Inter lost 5-2 to Schalke or whoever didn't prove anything. It was pure conjecture.



Ah this forum needs its wiseasses (PS I did agree to disagree and move on, you're the one who wouldn't let it go because I called your opinion conjecture, wiseass )

I find these friendlies more damaging than good. Monto and Reus needlessly out of the world cup now.