Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Pirlo
AC Milan - Milanfan.com > AC Milan > Players > Past Players
Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21
X-Offender
QUOTE (Fillipo Simone @ Oct 3 2011, 05:07 PM) *
Dida vs. Leeds - remember the first one?


It was raining, so the ball slipped. tongue.gif

QUOTE (Fillipo Simone @ Oct 3 2011, 05:07 PM) *
You are right about Abbiati. When he becomes insecure, he tends to drop balls easily. The only thing I'm not confident with is Amelia - I don't think he's first team material; he could easily turn into the next Kalac.


Yeah, Amelia's not exactly top notch either. But he's reliable, that I'm sure of. He's a world champion after all. Definitely no Kalac.
Fillipo Simone
He sure is better then Kalac, but he ain't first team material either. But we don't have many options left.
han2503
QUOTE (Rossoneri7 @ Oct 3 2011, 01:00 PM) *
To be fair, Cesare Maldini commented on the Pirlo saga ... He stated that Pirlo was offered a reduced contract value and a tenor of one year ... Pirlo on the other hand demanded more and a 3 year contract. He was also a free agent and Juve presented him with a more lucrative offer than Milan were prepared to offer (key being he wanted a 3 yr contract).

He earns 3.5m at Juve. Our other oldies are earning an excess of 4m per season. And I'm talking about Seedorf, Ambro and Rino here. Pirlo would have earned more at Milan. Money never factored into it. Like Filippo said, had Allegri made Pirlo a priority then the club wouldn't have had any problems offering the contract length he requested. Allegri never viewed Pirlo a priority from the start since he deemed him as a defensive liability and wasn;t worth the effort to incorporate him into the system, and now we're seeing the fruits of that labour

QUOTE (kurtsimonw @ Oct 3 2011, 01:10 PM) *
This is becoming worse than the Villa forum I use. Pirlo wants a new challenge, so that's Allegri's fault. Milan weren't willing to match the contract Juve offered, so that's his fault too?

That's what Pirlo says, but he was clearly unhappy with the way things were going with Allegri and wasn't willing to stand for it. He's a classy guy so he won't say anything bad about Allegri. But if the challenge was what Pirlo was really after he would have left a few seasons ago, not now.

QUOTE (X-Offender @ Oct 3 2011, 03:13 PM) *
It's ridiculous, really. Allegri does the contrary of how things should be run. I completely agree that Seedorf should be moved as trequartista. If anyone remembers, I firmly said so after the Plzen game. And yes, Boateng needs to be relieved from his attacking duties and play in a role more suited to his abilities.

If Allegri has any brains left, then from the next game onwards, this is how we should be playing:

Amelia
Abate - Nesta - T. Silva - Taiwo
Boateng - Van Bommel - Aquilani
Seedorf
Pato - Ibrahimovic


I think Abbiati has filled the cup. Not only he's been quite disappointing in his saves, but now he's starting to make childish errors. I closed an eye after his howler against Udinese, but what he did last night was simply horrific. Even Dida in his worst moments couldn't match such an amateurish mistake. Give Amelia a chance and see how he fares.

Taiwo should be given priority on the left. He's by far our best leftback. He only needs trust and match fitness. Nesta and Mexes should alter with each other.

Van Bommel should be our only DM. Boateng must be deployed in his natural box-to-box position, where he can give a hand in both defending and attacking. Seedorf must be our trequartista, but he must be rotated. Play Robinho or El Shaarawy every now and then to give him a break.

Only with that system and line-up we can play a more dynamic and offensive football.

100% with you. But Allegri is obviously set in his ways, so we'll continue to see Nocerino/Rino on the right, Prince behind the strikers, and Aquilani on the bench
X-Offender
QUOTE (han2503 @ Oct 3 2011, 07:24 PM) *
100% with you. But Allegri is obviously set in his ways, so we'll continue to see Nocerino/Rino on the right, Prince behind the strikers, and Aquilani on the bench


Which is why someone should give him a kick in the butt! His stubbornness is what irritates me the most. Doesn't he watch European football? No top club plays the way we do. It's quite ludicrous to believe that we have a shot at winning the Champions League when we're playing with three defensive midfielders!
Milan Are Brilliant
QUOTE (Fillipo Simone @ Oct 3 2011, 04:07 PM) *
Dida vs. Leeds - remember the first one?

God I remember that night.
Zed.D
QUOTE (Fillipo Simone @ Oct 3 2011, 06:20 PM) *
Man...Allegri's fault is that he didn't say "Stop! Pirlo is a priority". He just let that happened. He simply removed Pirlo because he didn't know what to do with him. He's more comfortable with guys like Rino, Nocerino or Bommel. You can see it from his comments also - even when we were searching for our mr. X he used to mention Asamoah or Lass Diarra. And that was before Flamini's injury. The problem is, he didn't realize what he's loosing with Pirlo. It's that simple.

There's no proof. Ganso could come in January and everything you said in this post could be proven to be false.
Fillipo Simone
QUOTE (Zed.D @ Oct 3 2011, 09:27 PM) *
There's no proof. Ganso could come in January and everything you said in this post could be proven to be false.

You think one Ganso can solve the problem? No proof? Well, we don't have proof's for anything, Allegri from 2010-11 may be kidnapped by aliens tongue.gif

Yet, don't you recognize the pattern? All creative players except Seedorf present a clear problem to Allegri. Only difference was that with Pirlo and Dinho he couldn't play around, move them back and forth, search their position, etc. He's messing around with Aquilani, Boateng and Seedorf as well.
Zed.D
I don't know if Ganso would solve our problems. but it's a fact that he's a creative player and should he come at the request of Allegri, things you said about him Max being against creative players and all would be proven wrong.

I don't think Pirlo left because Max didn't want to use him. Pirlo was unavailable most of the last season so it's understandable to me that Max didn't oppose his departure - we won the title without him contributing much. I believe we really wanted to buy a creative midfielder (Mr. X) to replace Pirlo but somehow it didn't go through. yes we were caught with our pants down but again it's more Galliani's fault not Max's. either Mr. X or his alternative Mr. Y should still come in January IMO. I could be wrong. time will tell.

QUOTE
we don't have proof's for anything

And yet we all keep passing our opinions as facts...

QUOTE
Allegri from 2010-11 may be kidnapped by aliens tongue.gif

You'd love that wouldn't you? biggrin.gif
Fillipo Simone
QUOTE
And yet we all keep passing our opinions as facts...

Do we? Can't recall the last time I mentioned anything what I've said being a fact.

QUOTE
I don't know if Ganso would solve our problems. but it's a fact that he's a creative player and should he come at the request of Allegri, things you said about him Max being against creative players and all would be proven wrong.

I don't think you're getting my point. Naturally we'll get a creative player, even a blind coach would see that. And naturally he'll eventually bring someone in - in the end, it isn't his sole decision. The thing is, I don't think he know how to handle them.

QUOTE
I don't think Pirlo left because Max didn't want to use him. Pirlo was unavailable most of the last season so it's understandable to me that Max didn't oppose his departure - we won the title without him contributing much. I believe we really wanted to buy a creative midfielder (Mr. X) to replace Pirlo but somehow it didn't go through.
I think Allegri didn't show any interest in convincing Pirlo to stay. Dammit, sometimes you gotta do exactly this! Berlu convinced Weah to stay once! Anyway...no more history...
X-Offender
QUOTE (Zed.D @ Oct 3 2011, 11:08 PM) *
I don't think Pirlo left because Max didn't want to use him. Pirlo was unavailable most of the last season so it's understandable to me that Max didn't oppose his departure - we won the title without him contributing much. I believe we really wanted to buy a creative midfielder (Mr. X) to replace Pirlo but somehow it didn't go through. yes we were caught with our pants down but again it's more Galliani's fault not Max's. either Mr. X or his alternative Mr. Y should still come in January IMO. I could be wrong. time will tell.


Pirlo had decided to leave since February (his words). The duty of Allegri and Galliani was to convince him to stay. Allegri by declaring Pirlo's importance as the kingpin of our midfield, Galliani by offering him a 3-year contract. Neither did what they had to do. At the time, I wasn't that depressed cause I thought we'd certainly sign someone worthy of replacing Pirlo (the world class signing Berlusconi bragged about when we won the scudetto), but right now I feel cheated and disgusted by our board. They let go of the only player from the old guard still capable of maintaing the quality of this team high and replaced him with an average midfielder, whilst at the same time keeping all the useless duds, such as Gattuso, Ambrosini etc. at high wages. Talk about upside-down logic.
TriniKing_CE
Before Xavi, I was entertained by the Italian maestro is his glory years!

Forza Pirlo!


Suck on this haters!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mw8rlvdPhs
X-Offender
QUOTE (TriniKing_CE @ Oct 5 2011, 02:54 AM) *


king.gif
il_diavolo_mtl
QUOTE (X-Offender @ Oct 3 2011, 10:13 AM) *
Amelia
Abate - Nesta - T. Silva - Taiwo
Boateng - Van Bommel - Aquilani
Seedorf
Pato - Ibrahimovic


I think Abbiati has filled the cup. Not only he's been quite disappointing in his saves, but now he's starting to make childish errors. I closed an eye after his howler against Udinese, but what he did last night was simply horrific. Even Dida in his worst moments couldn't match such an amateurish mistake. Give Amelia a chance and see how he fares.

And you said i had given up on Abbiati too early after Udinese tongue.gif ...
Fillipo Simone
QUOTE (il_diavolo_mtl @ Oct 5 2011, 06:20 AM) *
And you said i had given up on Abbiati too early after Udinese tongue.gif ...

Naah, he meant that by removing him from the first team after one big mistake would make him even more unconfident and insecure for the rest of the season. You simply don't change your keeper directly after his first mistake. But after two goals gifted to the opposition - it's pretty much obvious.

Because once Amelia is set as a starter, he has to stay in that position, no matter how many mistakes he makes. That was the thing with Kalac too. You simply cannot rotate goalkeepers.
kurtsimonw
Yeah goalkeeping rotation never really works. It can also have negative effects on the defenders. If the coach doesn't trust them and keeps switching them round, it'll make the defenders feel the same way.
X-Offender
QUOTE (kurtsimonw @ Oct 5 2011, 11:23 AM) *
Yeah goalkeeping rotation never really works. It can also have negative effects on the defenders. If the coach doesn't trust them and keeps switching them round, it'll make the defenders feel the same way.


Very true. But Abbiati has been getting on my nerves lately. Not only because of his horrible howlers, but also his attitude stinks big time. Anyone noticed how very often he tries to lose time when we're on the lead? Against Barcelona he was doing it on every single free kick. But not only that. He makes a save when most of the opposition is in our own half, and instead of relaunching the ball quickly for a counter, he takes his time nice and easy. He's the very reflection of Allegri's small-club mentality. I hate it.
Fillipo Simone
QUOTE (X-Offender @ Oct 5 2011, 05:39 PM) *
Very true. But Abbiati has been getting on my nerves lately. Not only because of his horrible howlers, but also his attitude stinks big time. Anyone noticed how very often he tries to lose time when we're on the lead? Against Barcelona he was doing it on every single free kick. But not only that. He makes a save when most of the opposition is in our own half, and instead of relaunching the ball quickly for a counter, he takes his time nice and easy. He's the very reflection of Allegri's small-club mentality. I hate it.

We're doing this almost constantly - remember Madrid also. We're unable to take a normal corner-kick if we're ahead. So this one goes more on Allegri then on Abbiati, but yes, I've noticed the same thing.
d'Arc.LP
Andrea Pirlo recorded the most passes attempted (81) and completed (72) in the game vs Serbia last night.
d'Arc.LP
Yesterday v Northen Ireland Andrea Pirlo completed 113 of his 129 total passes, creating three scoring chances.
Jack Sparrow
Ok..you don't have to rub it in! sleep.gif
X-Offender
I know I said it was a good thing to let him go in order to move on, but I really miss him right now. sad.gif
Fillipo Simone
There isn't a day in this whole season I forget regretting his exit.
Zed.D
I didn't and still don't disagree with the decision to move on without him, but it was stupid that they didn't make sure of a worthy replacement first. we lost Pirlo and naively hoped to get Fabregas or whoever Mr. X was and in the end ended up with nothing. and what hurts more is that the management is still more worried about adding more attackers to the team instead of acknowledging what the real problem is.
William405
Mr. X was Hamsik as his agent said.
drucurl
Miss uuuuu cry.gif
d'Arc.LP
QUOTE
Pirlo has departed, with Mark van Bommel in his place, but Pirlo remains the most gifted, and the most prolific, passer in the league. He completes 81.2 passes per game at Juventus, a figure the Milan midfield can only dream of. Their top passer is actually a centre-back, Thiago Silva, with 64.1. Granted, van Bommel is not far behind on 62.5, but the style of passing is completely different to Pirlo. Whereas Pirlo plays 2.7 key passes per game, van Bommel’s figure is just 0.2.


Interesting article about Milan's midfield http://www.whoscored.com/Blog/sanfjxo5eeuqpcguytstca/Show/
CHU-LIP
QUOTE (d'Arc.LP @ Feb 10 2012, 05:46 PM) *
Interesting article about Milan's midfield http://www.whoscored.com/Blog/sanfjxo5eeuqpcguytstca/Show/

Obviously our midfielders lack creativity like Pirlo has. Van Bommel I prefer as anchor, but that's because he is defensive wise much better than Pirlo, but of course creativity wise much lesser. Seedorf is old and preforms weak this season. Aquilani did a good job this season. He gave a lot of assists, later he played deeper (though playing the same position) to do the needed defensive work for the team, because Nocerino didn't do that enough (he goes forward a lot, hence his nice amount of goals). And Aquilani has been injured for a while now, still he and Cassano have a nice assists record, which is impressive.

Having only Aquilani (and Seedorf if he still counts) as our creative midfielders is simply too little, especially since Aquilani is known to be very injury prone. I do want Aquilani to stay, because he was our best midfield this season in my opinion. Our only creative midfielder anyway (bar Seedorf), so I hope we sign more creative midfielders, because I don't want us too see struggle next season aswell when our only creative midfielder(s) are out injured.
William405
When has van bommel's gameplay been about decicive passes?imo Van Bommel at the anchor position is much better than Pirlo,ofc he has to be coupled by a playmaker beside him for the system to actually work.We couldn't have relied on Pirlo anymore defensively,specially at that age,we were too exposed.So,letting Pirlo go imo was a good move,but the problem is that we have Aquilani out,and allegri playing seedorf as an AM
CHU-LIP
QUOTE (William405 @ Feb 10 2012, 06:04 PM) *
When has van bommel's gameplay been about decicive passes?imo Van Bommel at the anchor position is much better than Pirlo,ofc he has to be coupled by a playmaker beside him for the system to actually work.We couldn't have relied on Pirlo anymore defensively,specially at that age,we were too exposed.So,letting Pirlo go imo was a good move,but the problem is that we have Aquilani out,and allegri playing seedorf as an AM

Our creative player doesn't have to be an anchor anyway. I prefer our creative midfielder to be in LCM, RCM and/or AM [edit: because from there you can do much better playmaking than the anchor who needs to stay back and focus rather on defending than making key passes, a CM/AM can do that way more often]. The anchor needs to be defensively very strong which Van Bommel is, and he is also a decent ball playing midfielder which also is important for an anchor to at least can do something with the ball on his foot (because messing up in anchor position is dangerous).

Therefore Pirlo makes more sense as LCM, which he has played in the last part of his Milan career, usually. Still there he had obvious downsides in my opinion had a lot to do with Pirlo having a lack of motivation when playing for Milan during his last years. I think Pirlo simply needed a new challenge, something similar he himself said too.
William405
Agreed.
CHU-LIP
QUOTE (William405 @ Feb 10 2012, 09:05 PM) *
Agreed.

smile.gif

And I agree with Seedorf being played as AM being a problem. He disappoints there so much. I hope to see him as LCM, because that's his best position, and he is our only creative midfielder available now. Which brings us to our issue: no one left to play AM then. Boateng is our only proper option for the AM position. That's quite sad.

So both when it comes to AM's and creative midfielders, it's very sad looking in Milan's squad. sad.gif
Fillipo Simone
I can't agree letting Pirlo go was the right decision. IMO he's a world class player every team should try to keep, build around him and integrate. If the system didn't work, change it for Pirlo! IMO Allegri's system wasn't worth sacrificing Pirlo. But, enough said, I know people usually don't agree on this.


Chu, you mentioned Aquilani doing defensive work...well, it usually was plain awful. Giving away unnecessary fouls on dangerous positions, getting easily outtrixed and outsmarted, and collecting the yellow card usually early on in the game.
CHU-LIP
QUOTE (Fillipo Simone @ Feb 11 2012, 02:22 PM) *
I can't agree letting Pirlo go was the right decision. IMO he's a world class player every team should try to keep, build around him and integrate. If the system didn't work, change it for Pirlo! IMO Allegri's system wasn't worth sacrificing Pirlo. But, enough said, I know people usually don't agree on this.

Chu, you mentioned Aquilani doing defensive work...well, it usually was plain awful. Giving away unnecessary fouls on dangerous positions, getting easily outtrixed and outsmarted, and collecting the yellow card usually early on in the game.

Well, it shows he does contribute defensively. Nocerino seems to do it better because not making fouls so often? Oh wait, because he doesn't tackle much... and Aquilani's defensive contribution wasn't that bad you make it sound.

Change it for Pirlo? Build the team around a player that is not motivated anymore to play for that team? Smart.
drucurl
Easily the most annoying person ever.

Lost his passion at Milan? Lolz cool story POS drag queen smile.gif
Incredible that Costacurta, Maldini, Baresi, Seedorf...heck even Gatuso wants to PLAY FOR FREE for us but this fairy thinks that he's been there and done that at Milan dry.gif

We might sorely miss a player with his unique skillset but kicking to the curb shows that we at least have our pride and is the single greatest decision that Allegri has ever made in his entire life.

Overrated $#!t hasn't scored a free kick for us in NEARLY THREE Fu¢₭ing years but goes across to Ladri and does it no problem swear1.gif Milan legend my black @$$. No one ever held the natural effects of aging against him but IF YOU ACTUALLY WATCHED OUR GAMES YOU COULD SEE THAT HE SIMPLY DIDN'T CARE ANYMORE.

/rant
d'Arc.LP
huhsmileyf.gif
han2503
QUOTE (drucurl @ Feb 22 2012, 12:29 PM) *
Easily the most annoying person ever.

Lost his passion at Milan? Lolz cool story POS drag queen smile.gif
Incredible that Costacurta, Maldini, Baresi, Seedorf...heck even Gatuso wants to PLAY FOR FREE for us but this fairy thinks that he's been there and done that at Milan dry.gif

We might sorely miss a player with his unique skillset but kicking to the curb shows that we at least have our pride and is the single greatest decision that Allegri has ever made in his entire life.

Overrated $#!t hasn't scored a free kick for us in NEARLY THREE Fu¢₭ing years but goes across to Ladri and does it no problem swear1.gif Milan legend my black @$$. No one ever held the natural effects of aging against him but IF YOU ACTUALLY WATCHED OUR GAMES YOU COULD SEE THAT HE SIMPLY DIDN'T CARE ANYMORE.

/rant

laugh.gif laugh.gif

Too funny dru
X-Offender
QUOTE
You have chosen to ignore all posts from: drucurl.


I suggest you should all practice it.
drucurl
QUOTE (X-Offender @ Feb 22 2012, 11:21 AM) *
I suggest you should all practice it.

My life is like soooo ruined now sad.gif
Zed.D
If you want to ignore him, just do it, why make an announcement about it? what is this, a teenage girls' forum?
Jack Sparrow
biggrin.gif Are we actually arguing over Pirlo even more than over Sheva when he left!! I thought I was his biggest fanboy and even I'm over it!
X-Offender
QUOTE (Zed.D @ Feb 22 2012, 05:31 PM) *
If you want to ignore him, just do it, why make an announcement about it? what is this, a teenage girls' forum?


It was a suggestion, not an announcement. rolleyes.gif
drucurl
I hope MVB deals well with Mr. “Milan made a mistake in letting me go”. Won’t be able to stomach another one of his “I traded up” tirades. This is one situation where I could have done with iBra’s predisposition to transfer kinetic energy….to assist Il Maestro to orchestrate from on the treatment table smile.gif , after all he doesn’t have to actually play (well) to be acknowledged as one of the best midfielders in Europe. I wonder if Juve fans would blame the other 10 players as we have often done, for being “too static, slow, immobile and not making the correct runs”. Maybe they’ll even record his “almost scored” free kicks as a statistic of some note the way the rossoneri do currently with their recycled Ladri striker.

Rather interesting that Ancelotti (goal.com) was also of the opinion that he left for a better contract…..I mean who wants to retire in a Rossonero jersey? That only works for idiots like Maldini, Baresi and Costacurta who inexplicably didn’t lose motivation playing for Milan dry.gif Forza Il Maestro- a true Milan legend who disposed of all the Pigeons on the roof of the San Siro with his laser precision free kicks cool.gif
d'Arc.LP
Ancelotti some hours ago: "If I were coaching Milan, I would never let Pirlo go to Juventus."

source: MilanDiavolo/twitter
Jack Sparrow
Better contract doesn't always have to mean better money. In our case, we know that he wanted a longer duration instead of higher pay. In fact he earns less at Juve than he did with his last contract at Milan.
drucurl
QUOTE (Jack Sparrow @ Feb 24 2012, 01:15 PM) *
Better contract doesn't always have to mean better money. In our case, we know that he wanted a longer duration instead of higher pay. In fact he earns less at Juve than he did with his last contract at Milan.

Point well taken but I guess my main gripe with him is him aloof disposition. Far better players played their hearts out for longer than him and never lost the love or motivation to represent us. Who does he think he is that he deserves better than the other senatores who get by just fine with their one year rolling contracts? Heck even Nesta(actual Milan legend) has one that's expiring this summer.
d'Arc.LP
QUOTE (drucurl @ Feb 24 2012, 07:02 PM) *
Point well taken but I guess my main gripe with him is him aloof disposition. Far better players played their hearts out for longer than him and never lost the love or motivation to represent us. Who does he think he is that he deserves better than the other senatores who get by just fine with their one year rolling contracts? Heck even Nesta(actual Milan legend) has one that's expiring this summer.


You do realize that Nesta, Seedorf and Ambrosini are 3 years older than Pirlo, don't you ?
milanbuf88
QUOTE (drucurl @ Feb 24 2012, 01:02 PM) *
Point well taken but I guess my main gripe with him is him aloof disposition. Far better players played their hearts out for longer than him and never lost the love or motivation to represent us. Who does he think he is that he deserves better than the other senatores who get by just fine with their one year rolling contracts? Heck even Nesta(actual Milan legend) has one that's expiring this summer.


That's just his personality. He isn't loud or boisterous. He won't scream in your face like a Gattuso. That doesn't mean he isn't passionate or invested. He plays the same way. All intelligent, calculated moves, no wasted energy. At his best he makes it look effortless. Why should he try to be something he's not? He plays to his strengths just like everyone else.
drucurl
QUOTE (milanbuf88 @ Feb 24 2012, 03:34 PM) *
That's just his personality. He isn't loud or boisterous. He won't scream in your face like a Gattuso. That doesn't mean he isn't passionate or invested. He plays the same way. All intelligent, calculated moves, no wasted energy. At his best he makes it look effortless. Why should he try to be something he's not? He plays to his strengths just like everyone else.

Ok as much as I don't like him I'm really not trolling here. He makes it look effortless because....wait for it......a little more......HE PUTS IN NO EFFORT!! mad.gif

If you think that I'm merely an insufferable troll with an agenda go replay the game where Merda beat us last season...... you'd see that for each of the goals scored....Pirlo didn't do so much as stick a foot out.....meanwhile the other players were hyperventilating their lungs out trying to defend....I've seen him give up the ball sooooo many times with a leisurely pace at his languid style....bot even breaking a sweat but always moving and racking up the mileage.

His last season under Ancelotti was probably his worst. Now he's back at Juve he looks like his old self...scoring free kicks and the like



QUOTE (d'Arc.LP @ Feb 24 2012, 02:58 PM) *
You do realize that Nesta, Seedorf and Ambrosini are 3 years older than Pirlo, don't you ?
Im my opinion (which I concede is biased) ALL three have been better servants of Milan. Particularly Nesta, who's age isn't quite as much an issue as a midfielder with offensive responsibility.
d'Arc.LP
Fact: Pirlo has won 100 ground battles, 23 more than his replacement at Milan, Van Bommel.

Fact: Andrea Pirlo has had 2251 touches of the ball this season - more than any other player in Europe's top 5 leagues
William405
Way to lift our mentality bro wink.gif
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2026 Invision Power Services, Inc.