Ditto. Pato was in the Internacional squad too. He wasn't needed much though, as Barca really didn't play to their potential. Oh, I love the feeling of watching matches like these when big titan clubs get squashed by smaller unknown ones. Unless the titan club in question is Milan, of course. AC.

Apparently Altafini criticezed Sheva's return and Berlusconi Link

THAT'S THREE MILAN LEGENDS AGAINST $heva.....discuss......

I think it's too early to put judgment on this. Since it was on a loan (according to lega-calcio) and since we have enough other strikers... it's not like there is much to risk here. I'm sure there have been some Milan legends who were in favor of this, but the media focuses mostly on negativity).

Which Milan legends were in favor of the move?

That was an assumption.

Shevchenko
Maldini

All against $heva: Seedorf (always against everybody , Ancelotti, Altafini, Boban (no reheated soup ), Costacurta
All for $heva: Kaka?

Well, anybody that hasn't said anything is happy for him to be here, surely? Otherwise they'd have said something negative about him.

Well, yes and no. Dirty laundry at Milan is not usually aired in public. Even if current employees (to include Milan players and coaching staff) are unhappy about the loan of Shevchenko, I'm not too sure anyone will say anything out loud.

Ancelotti never said anything negative regarding Sheva, and never said he didn't want him back or anything like that.

As for legends not wanting Sheva back, sure they might speak out but what's important is the players that we have and so far everyone has greeted Sheva back, Kaka, Pirlo and Kaladze seem the happiest to have him back, especially from the clips I've seen on Milan channel so does Maldini who has spken about Sheva, and if Maldini can accept him back and the Curva can give him the welcome he had on Sunday, I don't see any problems


Exactly

He called him a traitor. That's worse than saying he doesn't want him back. Which he doesn't. It's all Mr. B's idea. The coach is just playing along nice. I mean, everyone was of the opinion (Paolo, Kaka, Gattuso, etc) that what Sheva did was wrong, but no one went so far to call him a traitor.

That was more then a year ago, agreed that Carlo would never go against Silvio. But before Sheva came Carlo said nothing in the negative about Sheva, of course that would go back to the Silvio issue, but it is what it is. That is Carlo for you, it wouldn't have been Mourinho or Cappello who would stand for it and keep their mouths shut

As for Kaka, he never said anythin bad regarding Sheva, they've always been really great friends, the only times I can recall Kaka saying anything regarding Sheva is when a lot of rumours about him moving to Real came out and he alluded to the fact that he sees the whole Sheva ordeal as something that he looks at when thinking of moving to another club.

Other then that he's never mentioned anything.

That's actually what I meant. Only past players would say something negative about Shave, they don't want to strain their relationship in the dressing room.

Wasn't that Carlo calling Sheva a traitor a joke after all?!

A bad one. I mean, Carlo never liked Sheva much, but that's not what I'd expect from my former coach. Even the Real Madrid coach who kicked out Ronaldo said he was the most talented player he ever coached.

Well, Carlo ain't no class. calling Sheva a traitor, giving Juve fans the finger, etc. but he is professional. I'm sure he will get along with Sheva...

It's not that Carlo and Sheva never got along, I think they have/had a healthy working relationship, but there hapve been little arguments here and there, but let's not forget that these haven't happened with just Sheva, Seedorf and Kaka were seen argueing a bit with him not long ago near the touch line during a match, but it never gets out of hand.

I think it's more about Carlo and how the players' respect for him isn't what it used to be in the past.

just stating facts!

Sheva did score that one goal winner for Ukraine... I hear he was like a 70th minute substitute. He came on and had an immediate effect...

It was a penalty.

True. But I did hear he did a few good things in that game...

Not only that, it could be a confidence booster too..

I'd be very surprised if he didn't. The two had their fair share of arguments in the past, but got along. I think they will too now.


Pinpoint accuracy right there and then, Han. Carlo's had his fair share of trouble, and that could be a very possible reason. Respect. But since it's a family sort of thingy at Milan, they never let this get out of hand. Which is good.


Considerably. But at least he had something good to say after all those years.

@ Giancarlo, Sheva never had any problem with his NT during these 2 years, he got a 1 goal per 2 game ratio for his country during his spell at Chelsea which imo is pretty good for any striker. It's his club form that dipped radically after his move, which imo is a sign of numerous reasons why he failed at Chelsea and being a washed up former star player is not one of them

While I agree with han about Sheva, it was just a penalty. no big deal. did he earn that penalty?

Ah if Pato scored a winning penalty no doubt we would be hearing how he single handedly won it for Brazil

Sad, but true. No offense to anyone, but that's just how things work in this world.

As acid said, it's sad, but very true.

Football fans are as fickle as they come, and until Sheva scores a ridiculous ammount of goals everyone will say that he's washed up and not good enough anymore mostly because he 'betrayed' us. But as soon as he scores those goals again he'll be a hero again.

I would never say that because I don't really get excited when my favorite players score on penalties.

I was probably the only one here who felt kind of embarrassed when Kaka scored penalty after penalty at the start of last season and couldn't convert during open play. my posts are in the archives, if you want.

Please stop this blah blah...

We say the word Pato, zd shows up

It's not about just the penalty, it's about the fact that any other player on our team could have converted a last gasp penalty to win the 3 points fot their country and even though it would still be a penalty everyone would be happy to see one of our players score a winning goal (no matter how it came), it's just because it's Sheva some don't look at it as important because it's a penalty whereas if it were any other player they would be happy.

Pato is being used as an example because he's still the kid with the massive ammount of potential to be our next Kaka, not only that, he's new and he can't do no wrong in anyone's eyes (that is including me, because I love the kid and can;t wait to see what he goes on to become in the future)

What I think Kaka Is Brilliant is trying to say is that some on here should lay off on Sheva, just because he made the mistake he did in the past

I think Brill's request is a fair one and I'm trying to be fair to the guy.

Whatever the sins of his past, he's a Milan player this season and he should be supported.

Caveat: I'll admit that I've never been a particular fan of his, even when he was at Milan the first time round. (I'm old. To me, nobody's come close to what Van Basten was for Milan. Not Sheva and not Kaka). That said, I'd be thrilled to see him coming back to something approximating his previous form.

I didn't say I was unhappy with Sheva's goal. what I meant was that a penalty goal doesn't mean he's back to old form and I still stand by my word. Ronaldinho in his worst day not just converted his penalties, but most of his FKs. so what? he still was labeled crap by some people. Sheva has always taken his penalties well, and scoring this one doesn't tell anything about his form.

And Pato is being used as an example because someone here happens to dislike him. I think it's clear what the venerable mod meant by that post and at whom it was aimed. and your posts just worsened it for me!

Now let's forget it.

I've heard he did well for his team when he went on in the 74th minute... lets face it... that's only 15 minutes to make an impact. They were mainly relying on former liverpool striker Voronin...

It was said in jest more than anything I'm surprised there were actually a few people who agreed with it...

As for me not liking Pato, I think he's overrated currently, yes. I don't know why we felt all our attacking problems were over when we got him. He probably will become good I don't deny that and if he does I'll be happy to eat my words.

You like him, just like I like Sheva and will defend him yes? That's good, I'm not here to change opinions it would be the world's most boring forum if someone made a point then everyone said, 'yep agreed' don't you think?!

I mean it's easy for me to just say to everything ah who cares you don't like Sheva so what's the point of listening to your opinion. That seems to be how your portraying my opinions of Pato, so I doubt him currently that doesn't mean my point of view is worthless?...

You don't like Sheva currently, I'm not the biggest fan of Pato currently. I think it's slightly unfair to slate someone for doing the exact same thing you are just on another player personally.

Just two things:

1- You say 'Pato is currently overrated' but 'will probably become good'. excuse me? does he have to pull a 1999/2000 Shevchenko at the of 19 to convince you he has promise? it'd have been alright with me if you just said he's not world class yet, because that's true. but I think it's utter harshness to say he's overrated i.e. he's not ahead of his age; because he's been very good for an 18yo. you can not name a similar player who at the age of 17 moved to one of Europe's biggest clubs and scored one goal in every two games (and that's not all he did). I don't know... maybe you have not seen enough of him (including his Inter days) but I guess I have to get along with the fact that there's one or two members on this board who don't rate him. it's easy to bash him now and it's easier to take the criticism back if someday he proved you wrong. it's alright with me, but I hope you don't claim yourself a fan if he did turn out world class in the future nor celebrate when he scored goals for us.

2- Where'd you get the idea that I don't like Sheva? you're completely wrong.

I can say that Pato has had a better goal scoring ratio than either Bojan or Balotelli. So I think it's quite wrong to say he's overrated or poor. While he has some things he can work on... he's just a kid. He has a very bright future and I'm willing to put my credibility and everything on that! I dare someone to tell me otherwise...

In 32 games, Bojan scored 10 times. Pato nearly did that in little more than half the number of games. Yet, I hear people talk about Bojan all the time about how special he is.

Football isn't all about goals.

Pato better than Balotelli? I'll say so. But Bojan is a year younger than Pato, yet is a more complete player. He offers so much more than goals, but even talking of his goals, you do realise he scored 10 league goals in 14 league starts last season? I'd say that's a pretty awesome record for a then 17 year old.

Pato is over-rated, that's for sure. His first season at Milan he had the advantage of being an unknown, now teams will start to know how he plays, what he likes to do, and they'll try and stop his strengths.

Actually sometimes it is... that's how you win points in the domestic tournament and such.

I vehemently disagree with that. I think Pato is far more complete than Bojan. I can't agree with that one bit. Bojan scores every now and then and misses absolute sitters...

Pato is not overrated. He can vary up and change things. But to call him overrated? I demand proof for that one. "That's for sure"? How can you possibly back that statement up? You can't. If anything, it's Bojan who is overrated... he's very predictable too.

I'll defend Pato, because I actually think he's underrated and the amount of bashing of him is kinda strange. Strange to think of it especially when Milan fans do it. When he starts scoring tons of goals this upcoming season, you'll eat your words.

Can't believe so many people are WISHING HE FAILS. I'm so disgusted.

Childish, childish comment, I had more respect for you than to expect something like that back. I don't dislike him I just don't feel he's that good yet and is overrated by some of the media, as I will say below I want him to prove me wrong.

2. I can't help but get that impression from some of your recent posts.


That's exactly how I feel about Sheva.

Come off it, if that's aimed at me I've never wished he fails. I'm a Milanfan aren't I? I don't want Pato to prove me right I want him to prove me wrong. I couldn't care less about a few people I'm never going to meet say I 'told you so' because Milan is far more important to me than that.

I'm challenging him, I challenge a lot doesn't mean I want them to fail...

Bojan? again, Bojan comes from Barca's youth system. that's a huge advantage over someone who's come from a different country, different league, different style of football, different teammates, etc. (gosh, how many times do I have to repeat these words!?)

I have no doubt Pato's goalscoring record was better than Bojan's. Pato (if you count the minutes he played) played 13 or 14 full games and scored 9 goals. Bojan I believe played much more, I welcome it if you do a search on Barca's website about the number of minutes he played in La Liga last season. anyway, I don't want to take anything away from Bojan as he's a rare talent as well.



We'll see how he will do this season. but I better than anyone remember what you said about him when we signed.

Bojan played roughly 30 games, and scored 10 times... not 14... Pato played 17-18 games if I recall and scored 9 times.

I think people are simply wrong about Pato and saying he's overrated? There is no basis for that. Sorry.

And a question about teams knowing how he plays... well... people know how Inzaghi plays yet he still manages to score plenty of goals. Knowing is one thing. Preventing is another. Many defenders simply can't prevent Pato from scoring. That's my view on it.

Wait. So you're saying I have no proof to say Pato is over-rated (Which is impossible, nobody can prove any player is under-rated/over-rated), then go on to say Bojan is over-rated?

Want Pato to fail? No, there's a difference between me thinking he's over-rated and me wanting him to fail.


I've never heard you say these things, but it's irrelevant anyways..


Err... Bojan STARTED 14 games last season. The rest of those 31 appearances were substitute appearances, often only coming on for 10 minutes or so. Hardly fair to use that as a basis of how many he scored, what exactly do you expect a 17 year old kid to do in 17 minutes?

There is also no basis for you to say Pato is NOT over-rated.

Pato started 13 games last season and scored 9 goals.
Bojan started 14 games last season and scored 10 goals.

Nojans goals:starts ratio is better, so..

I provided goal ratios...



How is he overrated?



Pato was a substitute a fair share of the time too, particularly towards the end. Often he came on in the second half. Please stop presenting such a one sided picture. The same argument can be used against you.



Pato didn't start 13 games, pal. He was often a substitute. There is plenty of basis... you're just dead wrong.



Bojan goals:start is NOT AND NEVER WILL BE BETTER.

You're statistical analysis is wrong in my opinion. Bojan wasn't just a substitute for just 15 minutes... he made more starts than Pato, yet SCORED LESS. That's right. SCORED LESS!

Go ahead. Defend him. I do not care.

I'm pissed off, sick and I couldn't care less.

Folks, could we stay on topic and save this for the Pato thread? Thanks.

Sorry. I should stop using the internet. My temperature is near 100... and I don't feel so hot. Some people in my class were sick (cold like symptons), and it looks like i caught it. Every damn time I start a new semester.

I'm gonna lay down and I'm sorry for any hostility.

Get back to topic... i'll talk to you all later.

Ha, it's called 'Freshers Flu' over here right at least in Uni anyway right pain in the ***!

Hope ya get better!

Eh... even in the masters program this happens... pain in the rear.

Thanks. Again I'm sorry for any problems. I still need to find the energy to finish my laundry.

I'm having about as much of luck this week as Italy...

Err... Yes, Pato did start 13 games. Feel free to prove me wrong.

Games Pato started
Atalanta (H), Torino (A), Sampdoria (H), Roma (A), Empoli (A), Lazio (H), Catania (A), Palermo (H), Reggina (A), Genoa (H), Atalanta (A), Udinese (A) & Napoli (H). That looks like 13 at my count. If you can prove me wrong, do it. But something tells me you won't be doing that.


Erm..

Pato started 13, scored 9. That is 0.69 goals per start.
Bojan started 14, scored 10. That is 0.71 goals per start.

So yeah, his goals:start rati IS better, and that is mathematical fact. Are you going to disagree with mathematical proof?


Pato scored 9 last season, Bojan scored 10. So how the **** did he score less?

Pato came on as a sub 5 times last season: 45th minute twice, 65th, 68th and 76th minute. So Pato also comes on early for his sub appearances!

Bojan came on as sub 17 times. I've only seen once where he came on at half time, the majority are between 69/79 minutes. So he hardly has tonnes of time to do much.

But to say he scored less is.. wrong. He scored more than Pato last season, and that is a fact.

Kurt, your numbers are absolutely inaccurate

Pato played ~1300 minutes (~14.4 full games) and scored 9 goals. (0.62 goals per game)

Bojan played ~1540 minutes (~17.1 full games) and scored 10 goals. (0.58 goals per game)

It's clear who has a better record (just in case you don't say Bojan), PATO. but I said before Bojan is an amazing talent. I don't want to take anything away from him!


Pato's stats on ESPN
Bojan's stats on FCBarcelona


(Will a mod please move these posts to Pato's thread? )

Thanks.

Regardless of how many games Pato started, Bojan still had more minutes than he did.