Yeah and they finished 7th for two consecutive seasons till last year where they won the Scudetto. That was a direct result of their rebuilding process post demotion to Serie B.

But to their defense, they always have been the jewel in the Italian crown, after-all they have the majority of supporters in Italy and are the most decorated in that light.

I would never trade Milan for any team, let alone them. I just meant in "this moment in time" I envy how well things are going for them. they look nothing like the old defensive Juve we used to know, they play very good and modern football. I also envy their health (as Danny said), because that plays a big role in how they are playing, and how we are. everything right now seems to be going their way. well, except Conte being in the stands


To be honest I did. but that was a pointless pre-season friendly, this was a CL opener in the Stamford Bridge. big diff.

Health, I'll give you. But my feeling is more of an intrigue, than envy. Drugs, maybe? It's not like Juventus did not take performance enhancing drugs back in the late 90s. Once a poozer, always a poozer. As for things going well for them, well they sure are. One more goal from Chelsea, and I was expecting 4-0 or 5-0.

It's a darn shame they took the pedal off the metal and Juventus climbed their way through to a draw!

God knows he's only played about 4 games!

In his first 4 games at Chelsea, they scored 8 goals. His record was something like scored 1, assisted 4, won 2 penalties or similar crazyness.

I've always rated Vidal and Marchisio, Marchisio especially is quite underrated. Good movement off the ball, can dribble, hardworking, tough ... typical box-to-box type players.

Good player but his finishing sucks a bit. lost many chances in the Euros and a good one last night as well.

Yeah, if only he had Nocerino's finish. But his long range shot isn't bad at all.

We can barely hold up against Juve's quality now. Why you wanna give them more?

True

Well techinically Nocerino is a product of their system

Juve being owned by Shakhtar big time so far.

So close.. Shakhtar almost scored a last second winner. FT 1-1.

BATE beat Bayern 3-1 and with 6 points already.

Wow, isn't Bate the team we played last year?

yep.

Shakhtar are a very good team BTW, played absolutely without fear in Turin and were more dangerous than Juve.

They owned Juve is the right phrasing.

By the way, I was very impressed by Henrikh Mkhitaryan. His dribbling and runs reminded me of Kaká in so many ways. I'd never heard of him before. The guy's 23, Armenian, and plays as attacking midfielder. He's scored 15 goals in 13 appearances for Shakhtar so far. Definitely someone to follow closely.

The problem is most teams in the league don't do that...

Last season Juve battered you with their energy, they played like it would be the last games of their lives in every single game they played. I think this season there's that over-confidence aspect to their games. Which could be a problem for them down the road

Anyone watching any other games today? Checking out Porto - PSG right now...

Currently watching City-Dortmund.

How's that one?

Decent.

Completely forgot other games were on.

Joe Hart is saving City's @ss.

Hart proving again how good of a shot stopper he is. If he learns how to come for crosses we have some keeper.

I think he needs to improve a little on pushing shots away that he can't save too. A few times he'll make a good save, but put it on a plate for someone else. Think sometimes he tries to hard not to conceed a corner and ends up giving up a good chance/goal.

Benzema scored a fantastic goal earlier.

Goal Dortmund.

Brilliant!

Reus nearly scored again, good save from Hart.

Dortmund are really good.

In other news, Malaga are destroying Anderlecht with another 3-0, so far. It's gonna be tough against them.

Hart MVP, regardless of the result.

All Aguero had to do was play it accross goal for a simple tap in for Dzeko and he passed it to the defender.

Gungodan. Wow. That's brilliant, truly brilliant. Amazing hustle to win the ball back, great touch to beat Clichy then a superb ball in for Lewandowski, should've scored.

That's disgusting. Dortmund made a sub and didn't even let Kehl get into the box before the ref let them take the corner.

Then City score the resulting penalty. Nice job ref.

Ronaldo's career record with Madrid: 154 games, 158 goals. Just stupid.

Thought was only possible in PES master league records... Not in real life... And in such a big team too. I am sure he would not score that many in Italy though. Just two different philosophies of the game.

Yeah, people said the same about him 'not performing to that level outside of the English league' too

I think English football is harder for a forward than a Spanish one. I think he can succeed anywhere. Just wouldn't score as many goals as he did in Spain in Italy.

Yeah, he's a 25 or so league goals a season player in any league. Just in Spain he's a 35/40+.

For me generally, if a forward performs in the English league, he is good enough for almost all places. But defenders are a different matter. I still rate the Italian philosophy of coaching defence to be the best. Unfortunately due to the oft repeated 'troubles' of football, the quality of the players putting that philosophy into practise is not good enough.

Efficiency:
Messi has 338 professional games for Barcelona with 263 goals to date. That translates to 0.78 goals per game.

Cristiano Ronaldo has 477 professional games for all of Sporting, United, and Madrid with 281 goals. That translates to 0.59 goals per game.

Major Honors:
Messi - 5 League titles - 3 Champions League titles - 1 Club World Cup - 2 Local Cups -

Cristiano Ronaldo - 4 League titles - 1 Champions League title - 1 Club World Cup - 4 Local cups


Conclusion, Messi is more efficient. Yet both spectacular, and major entertainment for neutrals.

We'd have to slightly redo the math. For one, I would remove the Sporting matches from his record. That hardly seems fair, since Messi had an advantage to start with Barca.

446 professional games with 276 goals. translates to 0.62 goals per game. Without Sporting, specially for you thats 0.78 vs 0.62. Giving Ronaldo a helping hand here are we

*Waiting for Kurt's usual "Messi has Xavi and Iniesta" argument*

Well, I don't see why it would be fair to remove the Sporting matches either. Yes, Messi had an advantage, but in terms of statistic this advantage does not matter.

The same logic would mean Kluivert's ratio for example should tell us more, because he played for a inferior Barcelona, etc.

Do you really believe that logic? I could just as easy follow it and say.

Ronaldo has been far better for Madrid than Messi has for Barca

Ronaldo @ Madrid - 154 games - 158 goals. (103%)
Messi @ Barca - 339 games - 263 goals. (78%)

Yes, Ronaldo had an advantage, but in terms of statistics this advantage does not matter.

The above is clearly not true, the fact he has an advantage does matter.

I think this comparison is more suited for this argument. Had Messi played in England or another league, then we could use the one r7 posted.

Does anyone take into account that Messi is two years younger than Ronaldo here?

Not really. If you want to compare Messi in Spain vs Ronaldo in Spain, you need to compare from the time Ronaldo arrived there (3 years with change) when they both on top. Kurt's comparison taking all the Messi Barca years including when he was a teenager while only taking Ronaldo last years.

So it's more like:

Messi: 178 games - 183 gaals
Ronaldo: 154 games - 158 goals

Which is pretty much the same, though Messi has more assists and scored less on penalties.

Though don't know why start all this all over again, nobody's gonna change his mind about who he's prefer and we have this argument every few month.

I might change my mind if the price is good.