With all due respect ... His talent was always there, I never questioned it one bit ! Even in the 15 mins that Carlo gave him from time to time I saw Zidane in the chap, in his ball control and dribbling ... But the lad just didn't have it in him to hold down a starting spot at Milan.

Kaka' exploded in Milan and so did Pato, both under Carlo Ancelotti ... It's just the bias that looks the other way ..

In the French league, what kind of damage do you think Kaka' or Pato can do ?! I'd say multiply by 10


P.S. He will become very good when he is older, that I believe to be true, but as of now he hasn't done much to push Kaka' to the bench - which is the position he is playing at Bordeux.


EDIT: And how on earth can a news report stating 'Milan sell Gourcuff to fund Becks' encourage us to think in such a manner ? 15MM ? to fund Beckham ? yeah right

You know, I met and saw many of them that needed "just" that "one" push. Still, they've never made it.

That's always fine. Agreed. No matter how much one loves a particular club, you can't love every single thing about it. Same goes for all other things in life, I guess. The good follows the bad, the bad follows the good. Besides, like you said it'd be boring. LOL.


Who has? It's up to the management and coaches to make sure they do. Either don't buy them, and if you do, then at least give them a fair run to gauge their talents. Even when Brocchi/Emerson and other first XI choice players were injured, people were left shouting to give Gourcuff a chance a couple of years back. And frankly those who know any better understand Carlo is doing the same to Flamini what he did to Gorky. He's being paid millions to sit on the bench, free transfer or otherwise. If I didn't know any better, I'd half think Carlo as a racist who hates French footballers.

The players that are mentioned that thrived under Carlo weren't exactly all youngsters. Some were rejects too. And beside no one will agree with that had they not been played regularly and shown confidence they won't be known as fine individuals such as Pirlo, Seedorf, Gattuso, Sheva, Kaka, and more recently Pato. The last player he gave an extended run was Gilardino (who couldn't fit in with Carlo's system), I'll give the coach that. Always remember, players like Pirlo, Seedorf, Gattuso, Ambrosini, Dida, Kaladze, Emerson, Brocchi, and friends aren't the future (just past, a glorious one). The way forward is/was Gourcuff, Flamini, Pato, Kaka, Darmian, Antonini, etc.


Not bias. Realism. Do you honestly think Kaka would have been shown so much faith if Rui was 5-8 years younger and in his peak? He'd have been just another Gourcuff (and other young talents that Carlo didn't bring the best out from). Pato? Had Sheva not left and was in his very late twentys, or R99 been with us and fit, Pato would have been loaned along with Paloschi.

Ancelotti does a whole lot of things right, but breeding youngsters is not one of them - this even he'll agree with. He likes his mature players, those with experience, those elite guns, proven talents, and big names. He likes his Seedorfs, Emersons, Brocchis, Ambrosinis, and what not. He's an elitist coach. Saying otherwise would be bias. I personally have tremendous amounts of respect for what we've achieved under Carlo, but I'm the sort of guy who likes to call it right in the middle. Give as much praise as is due, no matter who I'm talking about or with. Keep everyone in their rightful place: Add neither sugar nor salt.

And I hope Carlo stays with us for the next 10 years, and if he continues like this, sees his preferred choice of players retire all within a year of one another. And then see the damage. He didn't breed the successor to Dida, and we're stuck with a stop-gap solution in Abbiati. Same with our defense, it's in tatters. Where's our next Gattuso? Where's our next Pirlo? Where's our next Seedorf? Oh, excuse me, he's loaned out to a mediocre French club called Bordeaux with an invitation to buy him.


I wish it worked this way, but it's always easier said than done. Gourcuff's job is not to score goals, but he's got 11 so far in 20 matches. I'm joking here, I know, but ten Kakas or Patos can't get 110 goals in 20 matches. The French league isn't competitive, yes, but that doesn't mean that players who play there don't know a thing about football, and top players from other league will run them around.

It's always a team game. My local club would give players like Kaka/Pato a tough time, because well, they know their game too, and if they get their tactics right they might be able to give other top players in the world a tough time. Sure they'll lose. And may lose by a big margin. But that won't mean their opposition will hammer than 200-0.


Oh dear, dear. You want him to bench Kaka?! Only Kaka can bench Kaka. I mean, last time I checked there weren't any players who could match the Brazilian in world football. It'd be too harsh to expect that from a 20-something, inexperienced youngster. Rotating with Kaka is a thing in of itself, but really benching him is a no brainer. That too when Kaka is in his peak.


Fingers crossed you're right. I still consider Gourcuff a goner. Whoever suggested that 15 million buyout clause should be shot point blank. A 50 or so million I can understand. We could have extended his loan for another year or two. But that's just an open invitation to other clubs to snatch players right from under our nose.


I agree with your statement. A lot of young guns never made it through. But I just want Gourcuff to prove you wrong. And me too. Become so good a player that the game of football considers itself lucky to have bred a player like him. And I kid you not, football as a whole could always do well with high quality players (and I don't mean Yoann in general, other upcoming stars too). More competition, more action, greater skills, interesting matches, and overall good time. Who cares about a dull, uninspiring game of soccer?

PS. This post isn't against anyone personal (none of my posts are). I just wanted to write some big posts (and brush up on my typing skills which are pretty decent at 100 wpm) after my return after the little break. Who better to bash than Carlo? LOL.

I'm going to respectfully disagree with a couple of things stated above.



Disagree. The fact that Flamini hasn't played very well probably has as much to do with him not getting more starts as does his injury and the fact that Beckham has been playing very well indeed.



There's absolutely no way of knowing something like that. Predicting a result with negative overtones to a hypothetical is, well, not entirely objective.

Yoann was never given regular playing chances and there's no way he could set the world on fire while playing so little. you people can never say it was his problem that he failed. we bought him, hyped him to the skies, publicly called him le petit zizou several times, yet never let him play as a starter [not a 80th minute meaningless substitute] more than two consecutive games. the statistics are there for everyone to see and you can't deny facts. if you think Yoann could actually become someone under those circumstances, think again.

Oddly enough, he did start both games I saw at the San Siro in the 06-07 season, zeddie. And played all 90 minutes.

I personally tend to give a little faith to the club - if Gourcuff got practically no time last season, I think there was a valid (yet unknown to us) reason for it.

The thing you didn't see Zd is all the trainings, preparations, conditionings, etc. If Ancelotti decided not to pick him up for most matches I'm sure that's the reason. You know, a coach doesn't just judge players on how they perform on matchdays, they see the overall. And if Carlo decided not to pick him even in serious and bad times, it means something. But this debate is irrelevant. Most of you think Carlo's an idiot and that ONE season destroyed Gourcuff so badly that he has to flee from Milan because his indesputable talent will be wasted. I give up, yes he's the new XXXX...

Btw. would someone please check wikipedia - Gourcuff stats? It says Gourcuff played 56 matches and scored 21 goals for Milan! So please, don't come to me with the excuse he didn't play too much!

Two games? seriously, Tennie, what was he supposed to become in 2 games? it takes a YEAR for some young players to finally adapt to a new team/find their feet. I'm not saying Yoann should have been given a year, but I disagree he could have done something in 2 games.

When we keep bringing young talents like candies, it indicates to the fact that we do want to make great players out of some relatively cheap youngsters [remember Galliani saying we want to be more like Arsenal than Chelsea?]. our problem is that we don't know how to do that, unless they're some of the world's most promising youngsters, like Pato was when we brought him.

the injury yoann got very earlier in his milan time i think after than he lost a bit of form and then coudnt break into carlo plans unfortunatly

It's interesting how you try to [excuse my language] **** up a healthy discussion...



I say Gourcuff didn't play much and I have acmilan.com's stats to back it up.

I've looked over the last couple of pages of this discussion and again Gourcuff comes up and again a whole bunch of people seem really seriously pissed off.

I personally disagree for a whole bunch of reasons on the general issue (would I like to see Gourcuff back at Milan? Honestly? No.)

However, the tone is getting awfully harsh to my eyes. For that reason, I'm staying out of the way of any further demonisation-of-Ancelotti-because-he-ruined-poor-blameless-Gourcuff-discussions.

I'm not pissed off because we're losing him. we went on without Sheva, we will go on without Yoann too. but when I see some put ALL of the blame on Yoann, I get kinda angry! there's should be a limit in everything. Ancelotti is not GOD. people need to understand he might have had a part in this failure too. more than one or two people in this world believe that so it's not a completely baseless sentiment.



There's another side to that coin, too.

I'm not saying the exact same thing's happening to Flamini - but it's similar in a way in that he goes weeks and months apart in getting a regular spot. I know he's still adjusting, but people like him need regular playing time to do that. He's far from a failure as of the time of this writing. And the blame doesn't lie with Carlo (or anyone) alone. Thing is, a young and upcoming player needs all of these things in this order to shine and become a legend:

1) Talent
2) Confidence in his abilities
3) Trust of the coach/club
4) Playing time - regular variety of it
5) Luck - and that is being the right guy at the right time in the right place

I don't know on which point Gourcuff was lacking. Or in this case Flamini too.


This I'll agree with, what happens becomes history, what doesn't, hypothesis. Things like these one never can predict with absolute surety, lots of variables. But it also means that they may/could have happened.


Boy, one of these days I really would like to know these reasons. Besides, I'm not the type to hype up young players like there is no tomorrow. I like to live in the past a bit, remain realistic. But whatever the cause, fact is that Gourcuff failed to live up to his potential, and faults lie at a million different places. The player himself? The management? The coach? Teammates? Fans? Media? Time? Really hard to tell.


Trust Wikipedia at your own peril - that's my motto! One has to judge what's right and wrong there, it's such a place. You can't even trust regular websites these days, let alone community places like Wikipedia.

I can't wait for Gourcuff to come back..we need players that are consistent..pato, kaka(most times), beckham(so far)...we need players that are consistent and Gourcuff has been one of those players...I really and truely hope he comes back..I hope he's listening to us (milanfans)..GORKY COME BAK PLSSSS!!!!

I still don't get why this discussion has to be SO ****ING BIASED!!! Why does it have to be either that Carlo destroyed his career (hey check he's still playing and he's been scouted by the biggest European clubs so you're being silly) or that he's not good enough (if you're saying he's not good enough to come ahead of Brocchi when we need a creative sub you're being silly).

The truth is again somewhere in the middle... Gourcuff was not given enough chances in his second season but he did not send the would on fire in his first one either. Carletto will always pick an experienced player ahead of a not-so-explosive youngster but he did not exactly ruin Gourcuff's career. I'm sure he would not have been loaned out if he did not want to himself.

Are you referring to me? because I think I made it clear what I think, it's not either-or. I had said before that Yoann lacked confidence and needed someone to take his hand [unlike, say, Pato]. but I think Carlo has his share of faults too...

No that was not aimed at you, that was aimed at all of us.

Watching him in France and lamenting his loan by saying he would do the same in Serie A is biased as is ignoring the stats and saying he was given enough time to prove his worth last season.

There are facts here and they have to be acknowledged. Gourcuff was not given a fair chance in his second season at Milan but he did not exactly do with us what he does for Bordeuax now.

Unless we all agree on the only things we know for sure this discussion is worthless than a hairstyler is to Seedorf.

PhotoShop.

Ah... wish he had not cut it... he was much better then!

Isn't time to close this thread and start the summer transfer window thread?

Isn't that done already? I mean the new thread: Summer 2009 Transfer Window

Yeah, I hadn't seen that.

Given that the transfer window is closed, it's appropriate that this thread be closed.

Transfer discussions can be continued in the Summer 2009 Transfer Thread.