Firstly I'm no more a Pato fanboy than most people here so that's just irrelevant.

I should be critical of what? unlike you I don't think his weak mentality is what's getting him injured. that's freakin' absurd, saying it. weak mentality could affect his performances on the pitch for sure and we've seen that many times, even his passing is a result of that not because technically he can't pass, but injuries are a separate story altogether, whether you can grasp it or not.

Btw, you said as soon as he feels something, he asks to be subbed. how many times has that happened in his 4-5 years at Milan?

X-Off belongs to this school of thought:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYxCrugJj_o...eature=youtu.be

It's all in the mind man...!

Ambrosini got over his injuries in his late 20s. Before that he was constantly injured. Saying that Pato can't get over himself and his psychological issues while comparing him with Ambro doesn't make any sense, as Ambro took his sweet @ss time to get over his issues as well.

The main points here are whether the club will stick with him or not, and not whether you yourself and a couple of other fans are tired of waiting. Another huge example which dru briefly brought up is that of Van Persie at Arsenal. How long did Arsenal wait for him to finally have an injury free season? This is his first full season during his time at Arsenal which imo says it all. Sheva as well had a terrible season with us in his first few years. And when Real were sniffing around, some fans were saying we should cash in because they were "tired" of waiting. But the club had faith and stood by him, and this is the main point here. No one at the club cares about what you or I think. They'll make the decision they see fit. I'll be very happy if we keep him and he gets over his troubles, if not, and we do sell him, I'll only be happy if we use the money wisely and not cr@p on it by buying Tevez, as you seem to wish they'll do.

My final point, atm, we have a lot of luxuries in attack that for example a team like Arsenal did not have and yet, still stood by RvP. We have top top players like Ibra, Robs, Cassano and even someone low key but reliable like Maxi. This affords the club and Pato time to make a level headed decision and not one spurred on by idiocy like they were about to do in the winter window for someone like Tevez.

ey khoda mordam az khande! kheili appropriate bood!

ahaha,good one!

The issue of his injuries being psychological has been discussed plenty of times in the media, and I made a specific reference to it. The fact you don't buy it doesn't make my point absurd. I didn't say it's the main reason, but it's been preventing him from making steps forward. And there is some truth in that.



It happens to everyone, but not on a regular basis as in the case of Pato. Consider Boateng against Arsenal. He was coming from a month-long injury, yet he made a terrific performance, even though he wasn't ready yet and it was giving him problems throughout the match. I wish Pato would show such determination, at least in the games he's fit. But no, he's too scared to force himself, otherwise he'll get injured again.



Damn, you got me!



But this season Cassano had to forfeit and Robinho was having a crappy run until the match against Arsenal. We had to rely on Ibra once again. That's why I wanted Tevez so much. If we had an all-star attack like you say, then Pato would have been excused. But the current circumstances required his presence. And that's why fans are frustrated.

I do believe that his psychological issues factor in. But I don't think they're the reason that he get's the injuries to begin with, I do think that as you say, they hold him back from playing 100% when he returns but imo, they're not the cause for the injuries themselves. They're the cause for the hesitancy in his play though, that I do agree with you

Boateng is only just starting to experience such injury issues in his career (which is another huge worry for me), this is the 3rd season for Pato, when it was just the first few occasions, he got back in no problem and played with that confidence he used to have, but last season, and this one, when they started to come more frequently, he started to hold back a lot more. You can't really compare the 2 situations. It's understandable for him to have that worry at the back of his mind, while for Boateng it's not as pressing as it is for Pato.

You do have a point with Cassano and Robinho. But Tevez wouldn't have solved anything, not this season anyway, he hadn't kicked a ball for months, you think he'd just have slipped into the team seamlessly and started playing every 3 days from the off. He'd still probably be doing preperation training now with us.

And yes Robinho and Cassano were unexpected issues, but Cassano will be back next season while Robinho is always a bit of a gamble but has chipped in a lot this season and last, even while playing like c@p (it's mostly his finishing that is cr@p btw). And now with El Shaa's rise and Maxi also chipping in, it will give even more breathing room for Pato. I know it's frustrating, and you just want to go there and shake the sh!t out of him. But for me, I'm willing to wait a maximum of 2 more seasons before I throw in the towel. I know you feel that's too long a time to wait, but I think we canot really judge until he's around the 25 year mark. Plus he's not going to be worth a lot now either, so I'm willing to wait it out, because if he does get over this it will be hugely beneficial to the club. Think a Balo, Pato, El Shaa attacking trio in the future would look good

For now, both sky and gazzetta have the same line-up (though, like always, it might change):

Abbiati, Abate, Silva, Mexes, Mesbah, Nocerino, MVB, Muntari, Urby, Pato, Robinho

The only issue for me is Urby behind the strikers. He'll get smorthered there against Juve.

I'd rather we played a flat 4-4-2 if it came down to it. At least Urby will be in the game

If Boateng got injured as much as Pato does I suspect he'd be the same. it's true that Pato doesn't show as much grit and determination in coming back from injuries and returning to top form as he did two or three seasons ago, but that's because with each injury he's finding himself more and more helpless facing a situation that's out of his hands. he has all his career ahead of him, but can't stay healthy for a half season if his life depended on it. you say you're frustrated, but you can't seem to imagine how frustrated Pato himself is, and even expect people to be critical of him. I mean, what the hell.


You ducked my question.

This could have saved me typing my last post if I'd actually read it beforehand. great minds think alike

I said it happens to everyone, but in Pato's case he has one recurring injury after another, 90% of them being muscular problems.

You all seem to have blind faith in Pato, faith I don't really have anymore. And if the board itself got fed up by his situation, I wouldn't be surprised if we see him playing for PSG next season.

Maybe Real would be interested. Marca had a Ramos for Pato story, though it's probably BS.

You seem not to know how young players bar CR7 and Messi progress. That is to say there isn't any specific formula for all. However MOST truly bloom between 23-24. It's around that time Aguero has exploded, Messi reached where he currently reigns and so on. Additionally Messi, RVP were also VERY injury prone in their early 20's while others like Rooney, Nani Pastore etc were wildly inconsistent. 24i seemed to be the magic age for most of the aforementioned including 99% of the forum's dream transfer names. I suggest a significant lack of panic till then

Blind faith? Fanboys?

You said Zeddie is a fanboy, so his perspective may have been clouded. So what's my excuse? Am I too protective or what? Cause I agree with han and Zed, and it's not about having blind faith or not. It's about what Pato means for Milan's future. He's the nearest thing to world class we have right now that is still way before his prime. Ibra, Abbiati, Nesta, Cassano and Robinho ain't our future; Thiago and Pato are, or at least should be. And I intend to hold onto them as long as possible: an alternative is nonexistent IMO.

And I'm against it especially if it's for a washed-out shabby player like Tevez. The plan of selling Pato and "investing" into an Argentinian beast has more flaws then a Swiss cheese has wholes. Firstly, how much can Tevez give us? Two years? Maybe, just maybe, more.

Did you forget his injuries, Fillipo? Because that's the biggest issue here. Nobody doubts his talent. What I doubt is his physical integrity, and will he ever overcome his problems? Han said he's willing to give him two more seasons before throwing the towel, but something leads me to believe that in two years time nothing will have changed.

You could also rephrase it like this:

The plan of selling Pato and "investing" into an Argentinian beast WHO has more flaws then a Swiss cheese has holes, has more flaws than a Swiss cheese has holes!



Btw, you said as soon as he feels something, he asks to be subbed. how many times has that happened in his 4-5 years at Milan?

This was my question. I asked you for a number but you gave me anything but a number.

It's these little accusations that bother me. if you sustain the kind of injury you've had a dozen times, it's enough of a sign - you have to be subbed immediately. what's that got to do with weak mentality.

Top post!


You can't predict these things! Just like I can't tell you that he'll be 100% in 2 years time, you cannot assure me that he won't be 100% by that time. For all we know this could be his last injury (wishful thinking). You just cannot predict these things.

And being pre-mature about it and selling him for a minimal fee to get an idiot like Tevez would be stupid imo.

In 2 years time certain clubs would still be willing to pay the same amount as they are now if he's still having problems. His name still attracts a more than decent price tag to the billionaire clubs. So imo, there is no rush to sell him at this point

If our medical team really is as crap as we suspect...then I think Tevez is also just gonna go down the injury route right?

Anyway, I'm against selling Pato. But I do want him to get his head out of his ***, forget the media overhype of his relationship with Princess Berlusconi and do some hard talking on the pitch.

He needs to learn when to pass, when to shoot..develop some footballing brains which is what will carry him on his career when his legs have long gone. He'll never have a better place to learn it than with wizened veterans like Zee, Pippo, Sandro and Ambro. But he has to make some really rapid progress...coz he's running out of time and wasting his potential.

If Allegri won't carry him into the spotlight, then he needs to walk there himself.

So in the end it's our blind trust against your blind ignorance, if simplified, right X-O? Because all we have is "feelings", me and han "feel" we should give him more, you "feel" we should cash in now.

The thing is he can't overcome this problem by his own, he needs the specialists' help. but after three straight seasons and the same injury happening again and again, you can't help but think those specialists at Milan can't solve his problem. unless something changes within the club, Pato will continue having this problem. more than I'm hopeful his body suddenly starts behaving (that might happen as well, who knows...) I'm hopeful those changes within the club are made. whether it's the crappy turf or incompetent medical/fitness staff.

If the club's content with the state of things as they are, they might as well sell Pato in the summer to a club that have a clue on how to cure him and in the meantime we can continue to have a ****load amount of injuries to other players.

How should I know how many times that has happened at Milan? All I know, and what really matters, is that nobody's had such consistency in being injured since the Ambrosini days. And Ambro took his sweet time to recover. That's why I said I'm doubtful about Pato's integrity even after two seasons, even though you never know these things, like han said.

And it's got to do a lot with mentality. Pato plays with the fear of being injured. That alone is a big factor that might influence his repercussions. You find it stupid, but I find it very believable. Try to bear with it.



My blind ignorance? Thank you very much for the sweet words, Fillipo.

It wasn't meant as an insult; I said simplified

But in the end, we got nothing to argue. It's your instinct vs. mine. That was the bottom line.

Alright.

I agree that things need to change at Milanello, but that doesn't really just apply to Pato, but everyone.

Boateng was already mentioned, he keeps getting muscle injuries as well. Seedorf, another couple of muscle injuries this season when he's usually the fittest person in the team. Then there are all the other niggling injuries with Abate, Nesta, Mexes, Aquilani, VB's had a couple as well this season, etc

So, this will most probably be the line-up against Juventus: Abbiati; Abate, Nesta, Thiago Silva, Mesbah; Nocerino, Van Bommel, Muntari; Emanuelson; Pato, Robinho.

Boateng should recover, but he'll start from the bench.

the movement of the front 3 should be interesting....

When did you become so slow?!


You say that, I ask you how many times that's happened, and you reply "how should I know"?! then don't make claims about things you don't know. I know you think that helps your point, but really, it doesn't.


OK Einstein.

Alright, first of all, I thought you asked how many times has it happened in the past 4-5 years at Milan in general, not only for Pato. Hence my response. But still, does it really matter? When something happens too often you lose count of it and must look at statistics in order to get an answer. And for Pato it's happened way too often. Everyone that follows Milan regularly knows about it. 90% of his injuries have been of muscular nature.

I don't get the point of this either way. Why does it matter that he signals to come off when he feels the twinge in his muscle? He obviously knows when it's something wrong and he needs to come off.

Would you be happier if he troops on and makes it 10 times worse than it already is?

I remember one incident with Gattuso, he had a knee injury during a game and stayed on, everyone thought it was nothing until we later founf out that he'd seriously screwed it up.

I'm not saying that han, I'm not saying that at all. His injuries are only due to the rushed growth MilanLab forced on his muscles over the past 2-3 years. However, the fear of being injured might be a catalyst. That's why, as soon as he feels a little disturbance, he inevitably thinks of the worst and this only aggravates the problem. It was the same with Ambrosini. People kept saying his injuries were mostly psychological. I remember very well, because I used to watch Milan Channel very often back then. In the end, it all boils down to the player's mental strength. You may all think of it as a sorry excuse, but personally, I think there is some truth in it.

So you think he's getting more injured because he's afraid of being injured?

No,his injury is due to either Milanlab,and the fact that he's injury prone too,they both factor into it.The mental stength of someone has nothing to do with recurring injuries,I for one would salute Pato for his perseverence.He's being injured again and again,and then working his way up to be injured again,now if that isn't depressing,I don't know what is.Ofcourse,the guy isn't getting paid,and stuff,and it's his job.But,as an athelete,it's a very process to pass by.Specially,if you really love the thing you're doing.It really is a tough test,after all the mess he passed through.

You know,I don't really get how thinking about the injury or being careful about it would cause the injury.Unless,you provide with an article to support your claims.But,as far as I know it if he's having muscular problems,then I just can't see how psychology can factor into it.We've spoken 100x about his muscular problems...But,idk if you just want to blame the player too.For example,Boateng is getting recurrent injuries as well atm.Could it be that rushing him back like that,and him performing at 100percent factored in his current injury?A sure thing is that MilanLab doesn't handle things quite well,and there is also the factor of luck,but this has been happening for some years too.Will research about the relation of psychology with injuries atm to make things more clear.


EDIT:Ok,so I'm reading this article about your point,how psychology affects injuries,and here is what I have:


So,there has been several models,and the most inflential was Williams and Andersen’s (1998) “stressinjury model” that proposes to divide psychological risk factors into three main categories: personality factors,
history of stressors, and coping resources.

Hypotheses:
• Is it possible that personality variables, such as high
somatic trait anxiety(related to physical responses such as sweating,muscular tension etc...), stress susceptibility and psychic trait anxiety, which influence the risk of injury among
soccer players?

• There are a number of coping strategies, such as high
levels of worry, self-blame, and behavioral disengagement
that will significantly influence a soccer player’s
risk of becoming injured.
• The players, who incurred an injury, will experience a
significantly higher level of daily hassles than the players
who did not incurred an injury.


So,to try and prove the pypotheses,they will follow some methods,experiments if you'd like to call them:

Method/Experiment for the study:

Forty eight male soccer players competing on 3 different teams at a competitive level in Sweden (division 4 – 6,
middle – low league), who ranged in age from +16 to 36 years (M = 22 years) were involved in the study. The players reported to practice 2 – 3 times a week and play weekly games (April – October). Most of the players have been playing soccer regularly for approximately 10 – 12 years.



They had to do several measurments,I'll summarize them below:

Football Worry Scale(2003):Measure the athlete's competitive worry by survey.Questions include stuff such as fear of injury,fear of social evalution(what other people might think of you),as well as other stuff(16) not mentioned in the article.

Swedish universities Scales of Personality (SSP):Also,has questions such as social disrability,verbal trait agression,physical trait agression...

Life Events Survey for Collegiate Athletes (LESCA):was used to measure an athlete’s life history stressors to test how it might be related to injuries as well.Test had outcomes ranging from -4(extremly negative) to +4(extemely positive).


Daily Hassles Scale:Unlike the other,this one is used to measure the daily problems of the athlete.

Brief COPE:Was used to measure how the athlete copes with stressors.Options were:selfblame,self-distraction, active coping, denial, substance use, use of emotional support, use of instrumental support,
behavioral disengagement,planning, humor, and religion.

Procedure:Not really essential to the topic,they just stayed took the information of injuries with other amounts of statistics as well such as goals scored etc...And the statistical anlysis showed:

Results for subsequent Analysis showed that the group of injured players compared to non-injured players had a significantly higher level of somatic trait anxiety,psychic trait anxiety,stress susceptibility,and trait irritability.A model which included self-blame and acceptance could explain 14.6% of the total variance of injury occurrence.

Hypotheses 1:Results actually showed that injured athletes had a significantly higher level of somatic trait anxiety and psychic trait anxiety in comparison to non-injured players.A possible explanation to the effect of the athletes that have somatic anxiety is that they deal with situations as stressful so their peripheral ability decreases leading to the injuries.Peripheral ability has to do with coordination of body movements as well as autonomic movements.

Hypotheses 2:The results showed that injured players used the coping strategies, behavioral disengagement and self blame,more frequently than the players in the non – injured group.It was concluded that they are related to the injuries,and that they are "bad" way to handle stressors.A statistic showed that coping variables acceptance and self-blame could explain 14.6% of the total variance of injury when seen collectively.An important thing as well is that sometimes the coping variables work in another matter.The article states that is sometimes better to accept stressors as they,but in other cases,it would be called as an "ineffective way" to deal with those stressors.

Hypothesis 3:There was an old study that showed that their is indeed a relation between negative life event stresses,and injuries.But,it wasn't found in this study because of the "younger age" athlete's studies.

Limitations of the study:The fact that they had only 48 participants,and they could follow only weekly the reports,because they had several teams to handle.

Conclusion:(Straight from the article)

The current study found a number of significant psychological predictors that increase the injury risk among adult
male soccer players. Although the two regression models explain several of the injuries that occurred, the results also show both similar and different findings, compared to previous research. One explanation could be that the
current study is based on an adult population, while previous research focuses more on younger soccer players
(Rogers and Landers, 2005). One implication for both players and coaches is to be aware of identified variables
and their impact on injury risk in order to prevent sport injuries. Further research could investigate how daily
hassle affects injury risk among soccer players in a larger sample and at more highly competitive levels as well as
studying both male and female players. It would also be interesting if further research, with knowledge from previous
studies, could design an intervention based on oneexperimental and one control group, to investigate the
possibility of using mental skills training to prevent sports injuries. Previous research has shown positive results
regarding adult soccer players at risk , but not involving a low-risk soccer population.Therefore, a research design including non-risk players will enhance the research area even more.


MY conclusion:Yes,it seems there has been some good studies regarding this manner.And,although I still haven't found 100 percent how psychology can affect physical performance...I guess I'll research that when I have time for it.(finals etc...)But,according to the current studies,pyschology may affect injuries.And,it may be a cycle Pato has entered.Pato didn't use to get injured at Internacional(as far as my research goes),and in his first few seasons at milan(as far as my memory goes).This gives those options:
a-Milanlab interfered with Pato's muscular growth which led to some problems.
b-Pato got a muscular injury because he couldn't handle playing at a top leauge yet(I desperatly need statistics of his injuries to work with here...)Maybe,one his first injuries came after playing a series of straight games?This muscle injury could have led Pato to develop some anxiety due to those stressors,and so he didn't know how to handle these injuries.

Now,his muscular problems wouldn't have started if it wasn't for the incapability of Milanlab,and the coach of dealing with the player at the first place,so I'm choosing to blame Milanlab anyway(that part was a joke ;p).Now,even if Pato developed some anxiety stresses,there should be a question posed here.Can't those stresses be handled as well?I'm sure with our current advancments in medicine and psychology everything has a solution.I'll be looking forward to see in the future for a better final conclusion.Will Pato be sold to another club that will able to handle his problems better?Or will his anxiety problems ruin his career?Interesting.

For crying out loud, I've never said he gets injured because he's afraid of getting injured. How did you come up with that? I explicitly stated in my previous post that "his injuries are only due to the rushed growth MilanLab forced on his muscles over the past 2-3 years". What I'm trying to say (and I'm bewildered that you still haven't grasped it) is that his fear of getting injured might be a contributing (psychological) factor that influences his overall injury proneness. Maybe it's bullshit, maybe there's some truth in it. You're free to form your own judgment. I'm not trying to impose this hypothesis on anyone.

And that's about it. I'm tired of explaining the same thing over and over again.

X-off,read my previous post.Though it was what you were implying,and I'm sorry I made "fun of it",but the idea didn't sound really practical to me,sorry.Still,the idea isn't even 100percent proved to.Maybe,I read your post too fast,skipped to the "it's Pato's fault part" ,but sorry again...I hope you accept my apology in the form of the research I made ( I know boring...;p)

Okay X-O, and how much time did Ambro get to shake these psychological problems?

OK fair enough. since you're tired of arguing (so am I).

Let's wait and see how he does in this game, playing as a starter with Robs and no Ibra. that's the kind of occasion he might take advantage of.

A decade give or take.

Yet the club still stood by him

Not expecting too much myself, he's just coming off injury so he'll be rusty. But I expect him to score should a chance fall to him

It's OK, I wasn't offended or anything. I'm just trying to provide an alternative explanation to Pato's peculiar situation.



Because nobody was willing to spend €30 million for him.

Matri: "Thiago Silva difficult to over come? Barzagli is strong as well"

Senile old frog!

Allegri: "Pato is ready. Boateng and Maxi Lopez won't play vs. Juventus."

That's that, then. Here's looking forward to a Pato strike, or two. Fingers crossed he can be the same difference maker he was in the inter match last season with his two goals.

Pato will shine again,I can feel it.

Hell of an important match for us to hope Pato hits his old form. Given he's been appalling for so long. And bringing him out of the cold?

RISKY!

As for Boateng - if he's even 70% fit for this we should start him. He's crucial. Without Ibra, we will struggle for creativity and Boateng is our man for that.

This is too big a game to start him from the bench.

Might only get a half out of him but that could be enough.

Am I putting Milan before Boateng's health? Maybe I am, and maybe that's bloody selfish. But this is one of those occasions where we need our big players.

ALLEGRI: "Boateng may not be ready vs Palermo, Maxi has pain in the calf since he arrived, we won't risk Aquilani until he is 100% back"

The squad vs. Juventus: Abbiati, Amelia, Abate, Antonini, Bonera, Ely, Mesbah, Mexes, Nesta, Thiago Silva, Zambrotta, Yepes, Ambrosini, Emanuelson, Muntari, Nocerino, Van Bommel, El Shaarawy, Inzaghi, Pato, Robinho.

IMO we should go like this:



Mexes to start only if he's 100% fit. If not, Nesta instead of him.
Muntari as AM, to make pressure on Pirlo and not give him space.

Is he really comparing Barzagli to Thigao?

I mean he is having a solid season, but it's an idiotic statement to make. At least use Chiellini in the comparison, even if he's still not anywhere near Thiago

Is Maxi injured?

It works on FIFA.

I'd go with D'Arc's team.