I personally believe that he'll be able to regain form and start to play well again in the near future. That's just my personal opinion on the matter though

Of course I could be totally wrong, but with that being said, what's there to lose be giving him more time with us? It's not like Pippo is playing him each week no matter what, it's not like he's on a large wage, guys like Muntari earn more than him just to put that into perspective.

Selling him now only means we'll be losing out as we'll be losing on what we initially paid for him.

Basically, we have nothing to gain by selling him now aside from a few million that won't be reinvested wisely anyway, and nothing to lose by sticking with him for another season or two and giving him a chance, (even better if it's not as a starter as the pressure would be completely off him).

If he's still not doing well by then, we can see about selling him, his price at this point won't make any drastic jumps unless he starts scoring again, it can only sky rocket (as it's already plummeted as far as it could go imo)

Chelsea's official Twitter have confirmed we're getting Torres on a full-time deal, hope they've been hacked.

That seems to be a common theme as of late...

Nope, official. We've basically turned the ludicrous wording of the original deal, a two year loan, into what it really was - a permanent free transfer.

He now goes out to Atleti and the way loans work, THEY pay the wage. I suspect this was done to avoid paying the wage while he was at Atleti - smart move really.

And we will pay Cerci's wage while he's here, however long that is.

So we've ended up with a top class winger worth £20M by using Torres as currency, who himself we got for free.

Galliani is many things, but f*cking clever in the free transfer market is one of them.

Using that phrasing VERY loosely there Danny

For me there's:

Average: SES

Good: Enner Valencia

Great: Cerci/Menez (Close to top class)

Top class: Iturbe, Gervinho

World class: Ribery, Robben

It was a loose use of the phrase top class. I know he's not incredible. Same with Menez when he's not on his game. But we'd much rather have these guys than not.

I'd put Cerci in the 'good' bracket. He's not great IMO.

I agree Galliani has done some rather amazing deals over the years. However, sometimes he is a little too clever for his own good, missing out on opportunities (while trying to "squeeze" the most out of a situation) or focusing on the wrong player (as he looks for "deals" rather than "quality" and "fit").

As for this one, it looks like it could be great for us, though I have some nagging concerns about Cerci (FWIW, my brother, who is a Fiorentina fan, thinks we are crazy for wanting him - not so much his playing ability but his attitude).

Looks like there were some teams interested in him, so we may still get a reasonable amount if we sell him now. I agree that we should not sell him for peanuts. However, the problem with holding on to him is that his form may never improve, in which case other teams will lose interest and we will get even less when he leaves. As I see it, we have given him enough opportunities this year, and he is not getting any better. Even Pippo has kind of given up on him.

We'd have said the same about Menez. But his performances this season have suggested he's capable of great/top class.

Cerci hasn't achieved a lot in his career, but his path is similar to Jeremy. Spent his whole career (Roma aside in Menez case) in his home country getting a decent chunk of caps without ever really being courted by the giants of the game.

And indeed Menez' attitude was cited as a reason he hadn't made it truly. Maybe same applies to Cerci.

After all, if we can get this much from Menez, maybe Cerci will give us similar.

It's a signing I wanted last summer, and I remain delighted with it.

We're one striker away from the best we can realistically be in our current guise.

Oh yeah he makes mistakes, but we all do.

But ultimately he's brought in Armero, Agazzi, Lopez, Bonaventura, Van Ginkel, Menez, Alex, Torres, and now Cerci for a combined total of £6M.

Attitude as in dedication to his profession or what...?

And every signing is a gamble. Of the list above though, only Torres has been a blatant flop. Even Armero started to improve.

Yeah, (despite all of my criticism) I have to admit that this has been a very good year for Galliani. (And I am not going to blame Torres' lack of form on Galliani, it was worth a try plus he has found a way to use him to improve the squad.)

For me, Cerci and Menez would go into good and Iturbe and Gervinho would go into great (I don't think Gervinho is all that and Iturbe hasn't gotten into the top class bracket yet imo)

As for Menez, his reasons for not being considered a great player by people in general is because he's inconsistent and his attitude doesn't help matters much. With Cerci it's different, first off, I don't think the talent is comparable, I think Menez is a much more naturally gifted player, the problem is that he never really applied himself. Cerci is a decent player but would never call him great. I think you're forgetting that he's flopped for every half decent to decent team that he was ever with. He's how old now? And only has one good season with Torino under his belt, he got the big money move he wanted and just wasn't good enough to deliver on it

For me when saying top class/world class there isn't much of a difference, those 2 levels are reserved for the best players around


Agreed


Yep, agreed, especially about the Cerci bit


As I said above, I really don't think Menez and Cerci's situations are all that similar, Cerci has never really had any problems with behaviour as far as I know, his problem is that he's a fairly limited player and has never been able to cut it for a big club, Menez has the natural talent that imo, had he applied himself when he was younger, he'd be in the top class bracket now, but that's never been him.

I think you're waaay overrating Cerci imo. By your standards he should be considered average as he's had just as many good seasons as SES ;)

If I were Gallaini I'd push for a permanent swap between him and Immobile. Maybe Dortmund are interested?

Not sure I'd agree. Cerci's a winger, and Atleti don't play with them. His signing raised eyebrows this summer, no one could understand why Simeone had brought in a winger at all, never mind that particular one. He didn't start many matches as he simply didn't fit into the system.

And I wouldn't say he flopped at Fiorentina? 7 goals in 19 starts in 2012/2013 isn't a flop for a winger. Since basically 2012 he's just got better and better. A late bloomer, you could say. Many stories of that in football.



Yeah there's a difference. Top class is a highly regarded player who will regularly get yer 10-20M moves, but world class is reserved only for the truly, truly best. Diego Costa is world class, Vidal is world class, Iturbe top class.



Apart from Fiorentina. Roma he barely played and didn't suit them, same as Atleti.



None?

What's so different between Immobile and SES anyway? Both had 1 good season, both talented and both in a crisis. Why do you think substituting one youngster out of form with another would do any considerable move forward?

And especially the tactical line is more then just problematic. You see how Dortmund struggle without a true 9 striker. They had Lucas Barrios and Lewandowski which made their system work. Now they replaced them with the likes of Kagawa, Ramos, Immobile and Aubameyang - none of which is a true 9 striker.

I think we need that kind of player for our system, not Immobile who exactly like SES is somewhere between a winger and a central striker and tactically very hard to pinpoint.

Hold your horses there. Costa and Vidal world class? I think they're great, top class, but world class is reserved for very special players. Nesta, Pirlo, Seedorf, Kaká, Shevchenko, these were world class. Costa and Vidal don't even come close.



Say what?! Immobile is a true 9 striker if there ever was one. What you on about...

As to why I'd swap him with SES, it's because we need a CF with Torres gone and because I rate Immobile higher. SES is overrated.

Just one

Had it not been for SES we would not have made it into the CL that year (probably our last time in it for quite a while)

As for the difference between world class and top class, I think that's subjective, and splitting hairs, but I wouldn't put Gervinho or Iturbe anywhere near either of those terms

See, I think you're making excuses for Cerci now, he didn't fit here and he didn't fit there. Problem is, he really only delivered great numbers in a counterattacking mid-table side, no big club is going to play the way that Torino do, even with us, he's not going to find many opportunities to run in a straight line, cut in and cross as he did for Toro on many occasions, we play a relatively slow game, I personally think he'll struggle with us


Agreed totally about Immobile (Although imo he's a pure #9, he just isn't good enough to replace Lewandowski the way Dortmund need him to)

I find it funny how people here use different weights to suite situations that best support their arguments

Immobile had one good season with Toro, he's so far struggled at Dortmund

Agreed


Well, Klopp seems to disagree. All analytical explanations of Dortmunds downfall point to the lack of a true 9 like Barrios or Lewandowski.

Well, they're all idiots then. Immobile is pure CF, ask anyone and that's what they'll tell you.

Idiots? I don't think so. Point is, Immobile is struggling to do just what he's supposed to do: be a pure 9.

No, he's struggling because Dortmund are crap. Last in the league FFS!

The fact that they are last in the league is exactly why I don't want SES for Immobile now. If they don't pick it up, they will be relegated, and you can bet that there will be a fire sale of players who don't want to be playing in the German Second Division. Patience is key here with those players, next year we could have a shot at Immobile, and Aubuemyang given our history with him.

Nah, the list you just gave are legends. They're beyond world class. Del Piero, Vialli, Zanetti fall into this. They fall slightly short of being the absolute best of all time but they're far better than just 'world class'

World class for me is a contemporary term to basically describe the best 100 or so players around in the world today. Guys who have won almost everything, or are capable of doing so. Who excel in the CL and world cup. Who are at home on the biggest stages in the biggest teams. Costa, Vidal, Rodriguez, Robben, Ribery, Messi, Ronaldo, Suarez. These are today's world class players and maybe 4 of them could go onto be legends, and two look certs to be classed as among the elite of best of all time.

Of course, this is completely subjective and just my opinion.

SES had 4 months



Alas not true. His scoring glut was between August and November. Kept us midtable to be fair to him. We'd have been even worse without him. It wasn't till AFTER that though, and Balo's arrival, that we moved into the top 3. That was actually when SES' form disappeared.



I wouldn't put them anywhere near world class either but they're great to top class.



Of course I am, I like him. Like you like SES and do exactly the same with him.

We will make arguments and cases to suit our personal favourites.



Yes, because Abate never does that...

PS we ARE a counter attacking midtable side! It's how we beat Napoli and drew with Roma.



I find it even funnier how I hadn't even read this line but used exactly the same point two minutes ago about our Cerci/SES debate



As has the rest of their team, to be fair. But here's a point - many Italian players DO struggle away from Italy. They come back and find their game again. Look at Balo - his best years were at Milan and arguably Inter. Did meh at City and f*cking shite at Liverpool. Vialli was glorious at Juve and underwhelming at Chelsea.

I wouldn't necessarily use that argument against Immobile.

You can't pick and choose, his goals were crucial for us and kept us in it for most of the first part of the season, his 4 months produced double figure goal tally and a handful of crucial assists as well.

Had he not scored those goals and earned us those points we'd have never been in a position to get into 3rd by the end of the season. Trying to dismiss how important he was for us that season is a low blow. Let's not forget the goals that kick started our good form, his double against Napoli


Nah, Gervinho never was and never will be anywhere near top class, Iturbe has the potential to get there but is no where near that atm imo


Agreed there


Well Abate is a RB not a "tricky winger" as Cerci is classified under

And sure, we did play that way against Napoli, Pippo sets us up that way against the more difficult sides because he's afraid we'd get spanked otherwise.

However that's not how we play regularly, we tend to go for a slower approach and that's where Cerci will struggle. I've never once seen him do well with Italy for example. And the way Italy play is similar to us; slow, possession based football


Sure, but the key point here is that I never declared SES was great or anything other then what he is atm, I've always said that I believe he has potential, which is why I am patient with him because I do think he'll come good.


It was his choice to go there, and I would have imagined his style suited Dortmund. I just don't think he's as great as you guys are making him out to be, imo he's at SES level, he's got the potential but atm, he's just a 1 season wonder.

I'd rather do as maldini03 suggested above and wait out to see what happens with Dortmund and try to go in for him later rather than directly exchange him for SES.

For the moment we can still go with SES as the central striker or the winger with Menez in the centre, especially if we get Cerci in

11th is hardly 'in it'. It is, as I said, merely midtable.



Oh no, I'm not dismissing his four months and the importance of his contribution during those, I'm dismissing your claim he ultimately led us to third. He was crap after December. Scored 5 goals from Dec 4th till end of the season, and managed 6 assists all season. His goals during that period won us a grand total of 4 points.

And if you can't accept that and consider it a low blow, it's really not something I'll lose sleep over

"yeah but..."



Many would argue it was the visit from Silvio that kickstarted the form, but I will side with you on this, he did score two wonderful goals in that match and that was the beginning of the team's form. Unfortunately his two goals at Catania a fortnight later was the end of his own.



We're disagreeing on semantics. I class top class as different to world class whereas you don't.



So basically we can't take a word each other says seriously



I've not seen any Italian player do well with Italy in the past 24 months. Even Pirlo. Seems a bit unreasonable to pick on Cerci based on the shitty NT they have.



He's taking his sweet time about it then, because 4 good months of 48 is absolutely abominable.



They finished second last season, this season they've been a complete disaster and tonight there were rumours of Klopp quitting. So last season's Dortmund, maybe. This one? Doesn't appear to suit anyone.



I agree to an extent. I don't think he's Diego Costa either, but the difference between him and SES is Immobile scored plenty last season in a league SES is struggling in this season. Plus he's even managed 3 in this catastrophic Dortmund. So '1 season wonder' isn't really fair - given that one season was last season whereas SES hasn't even managed one yet.



Not for me

I want someone who will score.

Have you been watching Dortmund lately? Beside a shaky defense and a few more injuries, it's pretty much the same thing as for the last 2-3 years. With one big exemption - they don't score the goals they used to. Main culprit? I'd say Ramos, Auba and Immobile simply cannot replace Lewandowski.

Don't score the goals they used to? Shaky defence? You aware they won their group in the CL having score 14 goals and conceded only 4?

While it's true the above 3 strikers aren't as good as Lewandowski, bit weird that they're absolutely fine without him in the CL but not in the league.

Nah, losing their best player isn't why they're so weird this season, something else is at play and I don't know what.

I never said he single handedly lead us to 3rd, I'm saying he had provided a major contribution to get us there, whether that was in the first 4 months of the season or the last doesn't matter in this argument imo. My point was that he was a crucial reason as to why we managed to make it in that season. And he was scoring these goals while the rest of the team was an abomination, which is the excuse you're making for Immobile not scoring at Dortmund


Meh, Silvio or not, it took one player and his 2 goals to restore belief in the team.


No, my point was, he wouldn't fit in either my definition of top class or yours, he's just not that good. He's fast sure, but the rest of his abilities are questionable at best, it's when you see him against top opposition that his clumsiness really comes out not when he's running at the Sassuolo defence


He wasn't good when Italy were doing great under Prandelli either before the WC. Candreva (who imo, is a more mediocre player than Cerci) has done better with Italy than him. I just don't buy into the Cerci thing like some here do, but as I said, I'm more than willing to give him a chance with us, especially if he comes as a swap for Torres and because we need a proper winger if Pippo is going to continue to insist on the 4-3-3


Like I said, the number 48 you're providing is given very loosely. As he's only been a major first team player 36 of those months and was injured for an entire season, meaning another 12 months missed


As I mentioned above, SES performed for us when we were at our worst moments, and as Filippo said above, Dortmund's team is as it was last season minus Lewandowski, who they've replaced with Immobile, who has failed to deliver the goals that Lewandowski scored


For me SES has managed 1, just because his goal scoring was mostly clustered into 4 to 5 months of the season doesn't mean he was terrible for the rest of it, he was still very important to how we played


Well, technically speaking SES isn't considered a striker by the coaches we've had, so for people to expect big numbers from him when he's playing on the wing is already an unfair benchmark, not all wingers are prolific scorers, so I don't get why people expect similar numbers to that of a striker from SES when he isn't playing that position, he's so far scored 1 and assisted 3 this season, if it was anyone else no one would be calling him a flop

But take your time and think twice. Anderlecht and Galata are from what I've seen far from any solid Bundesliga team. Galata especially played a horrible campaign.

I watch the Bundesliga regularly. The main problem, I repeat, is Immobile, Auba and the others missing chances. Dortmund with Lewandowski would have been up by 2 or 3 while the Ramos/Auba/Immobile Dortmund, especially when Reus misses as well, makes zero goals and the concede the most peculiar ones.

Yes, only 4 goals conceded in CL. But you know what? 26 in 17 matches isn't exactly good, Weidenfeller being benched for Langerak, no Hummels for most of the time, a few desolate performances by Hummels and Subotić,...naah, if you had been watching Dortmund regularly as I did, you would have known what I've been saying.

But bottom line is: why are you guys so eager to swap a talented striker in crisis with just the same thing?

Your reply didn't address the difference in form between UCL and Bundesliga.

'Rubbish CL teams' doesn't cut it; Gala and Anderlecht would be midrange teams in Bundesliga yet while they lose to that team in Germany they easily beat them in UCL.

PS they also beat Arsenal...

Fact is they won 4 matches in UCL against UCL quality opponents.

Yet are shocking in Germany.

There simply is no way losing your best striker puts you bottom of the league.

Not even Liverpool, who were absolutely ghastly in the UCL, ended up rock bottom after losing Suarez. Midtable.

Because Immobile isn't in crisis in Italy. And as recently as May was scoring for fun in this league.

I would also be happy with Destro.

I'd be happy with a lot of strikers. But bluntly put we need SOMEONE, be it Destro, Immobile or anyone else because we simply don't have a goalscoring striker.

Saying the right things. Let's forget about the messy past few days, and hope he does the business for us, as I believe he will.

As much as I'm not a fan, I hope you're right about him, we need this to really work out for us considering we're left with no out and out striker aside from the ghost of Pazzo

Although I do think that a front 3 of SES, Menez and Cerci could be very versatile

Likewise my feelings about SES. I'm not a fan, and hope to be similarly wrong about him - and if he plays centrally and gets confidence back, maybe we'll see 2012's version of him.

Like you say, Pazzo is basically all we have other than SES right now.

Tomorrow's match in Dubai will be interesting - SES set to play as striker.

I don't watch the Bundesliga, you do, so you know way more about Dortmund than me. Even so, saying Dortmund are bottom of the table because their strikers are not scoring is way too out there. When a team faces a crisis like Dortmund are, it's the collective as a whole that's not working properly, not just a few individual performances. Like Danny said, there's no way losing your best striker puts you bottom of the league. There has to be something else that's jammed their mechanism.

As for you question, Immobile managed to cut it by playing for Torino, scoring 22 goals none of which by penalty if I remember correctly. That's a huge achievement for a 23 year old. That's why I'm willing to give him a chance. These 3-4 months of poor performances don't overshadow the skills he displayed last season, especially considering the shambolic condition of the team he's playing for at the moment.

Do I think Immobile has what it takes to become a top class striker? No, I don't. But given our circumstances, he's the best we can afford, and I prefer him 10x more over an overrated and long-term under-performing El Shaaraway.

Apparently we are linked with Chicharito, and also are in talks to swap Armero for Antonelli. (Link.)

The problem is, SES is not considered a striker

I really do think that under the right direction and given good guidance from Pippo he could be a really lethal striker, he has the ability to be a great finisher and he's quick, he just needs to be used correctly, and for me being played as a winger is definitely not that.

Personally I believe that part of the reason why he dropped off so much that season when he was scoring is because defences started to figure him out and could easily neutralise him since he's not a real winger, it was easier at first because he was mostly an unknown quantity to most teams, but once they started to focus more on him he could easily be isolated out wide for the majority of games and not create that much trouble for the opposition

Chic = good.

Antonelli...the worst LB I have ever seen at Milan in my lifetime and we're bringing him back? Keep Armero!

Yes, that is the advantage Immobile has. But I still don't think it's worth all the fuss.


Did I say exclusively Immobile or the strikers are at fault? I said a crazy amount of injuries, instabilities in the defense and as a crowning factor a inability to score goals. I can name you countless examples of matches where they conceded 2 or more against a team that barely attacked while missing 3-4 big sitters.

As for Immobile, okay. To me it's pretty much a gamble I'm not likely to take.


Surely you mixed up Antonini and Antonelli. Both were Milan players for a time, but if you have seen Antonelli play for us I salute you, it's a rarity.

Haha totally misread that! Thank God. Antonini = no. Antonelli = not got a clue about him.

PS Antonelli DID play for us once... made one appearance in two years...

So, feel free to salute me as I almost certainly watched said match given I've only missed about two in the past decade.

I'd be lying if I remember how he played though...

Yes, I know he was one of our lads, but he only managed to play 1 or 2 times I think in 2006 under Carletto.

Perhaps we should not give up on SES quite yet ...

Yes, cos two goals in a friendly are the turning point...

No, but they may be a good start.

Indeed. He's flattered like this before in meaningless matches only to return to utter crud when the real stuff kicked in.

When was that? He's been struggling for some time now, both in friendlies and official games

Pre-season. He was actually quite impressive at times. Then the season started for real and his form disappeared pronto. Unless there's been another friendly since then I forgot?