Point is you're wrong

Lukaku at West Brom and then Everton. Beckham went to Preston.

that's 5 examples, dst, is this enough yet?

Team MF 1 - 0 DST

Well first of all we're talking about a player that could possibly, as some people that have seen him play one and a half games tell us, make it at Chelsea and you're giving me two examples of players that didn't. Sturridge and Lukaku. I'm pretty sure MvG can achieve that feat.
I don't remember what happened with Beckham.
I'll take Wilshere and Marchisio as their case is similar. Still, as you might notice all these players stayed in the league their loaner team play at. That's not by chance, you'd want a young player to play in the league you're competing in and get used to it and you'd especially not want your player playing in his third different league in three seasons as is the case with MvG. Also, none of them came off an ACL injury.

I could take all of them as good examples and my point still would just change to it's rare for that to happen.

Honestly, give me one reason not to believe that post-surgery MvG is a hyped-up nothing rather than a great talent that Inzaghi refuses to play because they have different tastes in music or something. There's nothing you could say to change my view of him. Until MvG actually plays again and is good he's a big fat nobody.

Why's that an issue? You seem to pretend it's not for Glass Rose.

I'm not saying it should be an issue, I'm saying it could be. And that's because MvG is not playing. Rose is and is actually looking good.

I'm supposed to believe that a player who has appeared in a couple of games for Chelsea and supposedly looked good has had this unquestionable talent of his not affected by an ACL injury and despite that is getting held back by Inzaghi for whatever reason.

Why would I believe that? I can't and I won't until he actually plays and plays well.

Basically none of us knows if he's good at all, none of us knows how (if at all) his injury has affected him yet this is still somehow an issue!!

**** MvG I hate him already!

All I can say is the 30 minutes he actually got was some of the best midfield play we've produced all season.

I'm guessing you didn't see it.

OK I'm sorry I thought we were basing this on nothing but it's actually 30 minutes. This changes everything!

No I didn't.

So, we're saying that a nobody coach has this great talent in his hands but is unwilling to help himself out and improve his chances of keeping his job by playing him.

I'm not saying this couldn't be the case, I've seen crazier things happen probably (I don't know, have I?), but my view of him is not gonna change based on nothing. Oh, sorry again that's 30 minutes.

Give me a reason Inzaghi is doing that to himself and Milan.

Is he such a bad evaluator of a talent? After all, he sees this kid every day and we only needed 30 minutes to see the kid's got great potential.

Does he hold a grudge on him?

Is he punishing him for some reason?

I can't see why. And until the kid plays and plays well I can't say Inzaghi is doing anything wrong. This is at the moment a huge non-issue.

4 draws, 1 defeat and 2 wins in 7 matches suggests he's doing something wrong.

I'm not saying MvG is the answer to Milan's problems, but the fact he's been unwilling to play him despite a very impressive half v Empoli yet continues to play the unreliable firecracker that is Muntari (when available) suggests questions can rightly be asked.

After all, this promising Chelsea kid cost Mourinho £8M last season but few players of his age could breach the sensational midfield they have. Would I play him over Matic, Fabregas or Mikel - no - because Chelsea are MUCH better than Milan. But MvG has the talent, to, in time, improve. Who knows what level to, but then to develop promising young players you LOAN THEM OUT to 'lesser' () clubs so they get game time and experience.

No wonder his agent is having a rant.

Even our other 'big' summer midfield signing (£7M) Bonaventura himself has only started 4 matches while Muntari has 8 starts. What's the point of bringing in these players if you don't intend to play them and continue with the same players you already have - you know, the ones not actually performing at all?

Then there's the embarrasing Armero. Before the season started I wondered why we'd bothered signing him at all, you guys will remember me saying it was pointless given he was a Colombian LB world cup quarter finalist but with MDS did we need a player of that quality in that position given we already had one? Yet even when MDS' form dipped violently (there has been recent improvement) and indeed it cost us 2 points v Fiorentina Armero remained on the bench. So, if you're going to sign a player of that quality as 'competition' for your star LB but won't actually play him when the star LB's form crumples anyway, it's just a complete joke.

And don't get me started on the defence - while injury excuses the Palermo debacle (to an extent) Pippo's cast-iron refusal to start the same defence twice in a row this season is quite simply shocking.

No wonder we concede repeatedly.

So yes, I do ask questions of Pippo, and his approach. I don't even think he's out of his depth - was Allegri? Leonardo? Seedorf?

No. I just think we get the wrong managers who have a bizarre stubbornness (in their own unique ways) and it's their way or the highway.

They pay no attention to results or form, but start teams based on their own favourites.

And I'm pretty tired of it.

Are you serious?

Hey, the man plays Muntari each and every week like he's some masochist, so your theory couldn't be all that far fetched

I'm not going to join the jump the gun bandwagon and agree with Danny here (with regards to his supposed greatness). But the point is we have a horrible midfield and yet the coach still chooses to play the duds that have so far shown nothing but terrible football in these 10 weeks of Serie A games while VG has sat on the bench doing nothing.

At least if the others aren't doing the job give him a chance to prove himself, it's not like he's benching Xavi/Pirlo/Vidal/Pogba so van Ginkel could play

Yes, I was right, he didn't see it.

All I'm saying.

Essien and Muntari are like Modric and Kroos in Pippo's eyes.

But now I'm baffled. Against Palermo Pippo played a different midfield without Muntari, yet you say there was no evident difference. What does that mean now?

No evident difference in how we cover spaces (i.e. it's non existent either way even with the extra defensive minded player)

Muntari is not just a problem because he's an extra brainless player in a midfield that's desperate for some creativity. I'm sure if he did his job half decently most Milan fans wouldn't have the kind of problems they have with him. What's really terrible with Muntari is that he thinks he's better than he is. He tries ridiculous sh!t that never comes off and as a consequence of this he puts the entire team under pressure.

Someone pointed out an anecdote during the Verona game I think it was. Muntari has SES open right in front of him, Pippo is screaming his head off for him to pass it to SES, and what does Muntari do? Tries to dribble 2 Verona players, gets caught and loses the ball, handing over possession to them in a dangerous area of the pitch

This is the type of BS that I can't stand to watch him do, and it's why in my eyes, no matter how many pot shot goals he's managed to score, he'll always be a liability to play in midfield.

Bottom line is, any which way you look, we have 1) a tactical problem and 2) a midfield problem.

I just know that Muntari isn't completely useless, he does add something positive to our gameplan. Yet, the negatives outweigh the positives and he can't be considered a starter. Yet, Poli can't be either. Saponara as well. And soon we're reduced to van Ginkel being our "sure thing" and "hope".

I personally do not see a single positive that Muntari brings to our game aside from the occasional long distance goal, and that's never enough to justify his current status in the team.

He is useless because he is the liability that you also acknowledge that he is, he's also a tactical nightmare to have in midfield unless he's played in a position where he's shackled into it and isn't able to free roam like he does currently.

The only time during his stay at Milan that I've actually said: "huh, Muntari did okay today if not very good even" is when Seedorf played him in a double pivot in a game or 2 when De Jong was unavailable.

But in our current system there simple shouldn't be any room for him unless it's to sub De Jong.

Aside from Poli, we also have Bonaventura who has always played well so far when given the opportunity aside from the first half against Cagliari where he was mostly MIA rather than bad. So yeah, for me the midfield pecking order right now has to be; De Jong, Bonaventura, Van Ginkel, Poli, Muntari and Essien. Until Monto is fit again.


And I agree, the personnel problem is only part of it, the other is a huge tactical one that I don't think Pippo has any clue as to how to fix. But my point has always been don't exacerbate the tactical shortcomings by piling on even more cr@p onto yourself and playing liabilities like Muntari and Bonera to add even more to your headaches. And Pippo has so far done this in spades

Its a lost cause mate .. Even Ancelotti was criticized for playing Gattuso/Broochi/Emerson.

Maybe thr fifa games know more than our coaches.

Suso remains on our radar - seems he's stuck between two fallen giants and can't find a better gig elsewhere.

Armero: "I didn't ask to come to Milan. I wanted to play in a team where I would play as a protagonist. Inzaghi called me and offered me a starting position, that's why I accepted. However, I have barely played and the situation is very difficult"

Link

I am so disappointed for Armero. Sure, I didn't see why we were signing him but Pippo has pretty much lied to him.

His treatment of he and MvG has been shocking tbh.

Not quite. I kind of expected this, to be honest. You can always, from new coaches, as they have unproven man management skills. One of the reasons why I just don't rate the profession. Apparently Maldini doesn't either. Too much politics, far too much politics.

When I said 'shocking' I meant 'unnacceptable' as opposed to 'unpredictable'.

In this case though I'd argue for both given how well-respected and brilliantly he did with Primavera.

I got that vibe, though. Unacceptable, more than shocking. That ties into my reply, you need to be a real top coach to tread these waters, bringing the best out of players, playing the best ones, and not letting politics and personal bias and favorites to creep into your selection. Seedorf was a hot potato in this regard, so is Inzaghi.

Ironic, considering what Allegri put him through. You give respect to earn it, and frankly, we haven't had a nice guy coach in eons. Ancelotti had that mean streak in him, and all our coaches since then, including Leonardo had it too. Maybe it's got to do with the culture we have in place, or just petty personal politics.

But hey, their funeral, I mean, right? You do well, you'll stay, if not, the volatile environment of this current AC Milan will automatically push you out. The only real constant we have is Mr. B. And he's not much a constant. Galliani,, the coaches, the players, everyone else is on shaky grounds.

It's the start of the season, still, but I'm already prepared for some wild changes.

Think acid, its more to do with expectations here than anything else.

Milan is a club with a glorious history, bar Madrid no club could replicate this club's achievements.

Since the dawn of FFP we started to scale down on quality. We have become trigger friendly (as fans). And this is understandable, as our expectations are that of CL finals. Yet because of our lack of quality and lack of results, we quickly point the fingers.

We need to downgrade our expectations to what our club's capacity could support. We have to be aligned with this, otherwise we are left with frustration. Sure it is saddening when I go to watch a CL semi final at friends and they tease about Milan, but that is the circle of life if you will.

Berlusconi could throw in 200M, heck 500M the next day, but by doing so we would be barred from European competition and maybe fines from Liga Calcio. It has been cemented in these forums that Berlusconi does not care, that he wants to sell our best players to fill his own pockets, and these accusations/assumptions are fine since it is an internet forum. But for the record, he did do good. He made the Milan we are all fans of. While the current times, not only football, but all of Italy is bleeding. FIAT group spun off Ferrari to raise cash (last week).

Looking at Serie A today (or Italy as a whole), you can see the regression throughout. Roma were humbled by Bayern, the Roma for which we all consider title worthy contenders. It is telling of the times Italy's industries/exports are facing, and Milan is a product for which Italy markets. You would have to relate, otherwise it is all guess work.

In closing, Inzaghi is a sole we all love. Regardless of his coaching ability. However, after 10 or so matches since his Serie A debut we all have our guns aimed at him. We knew he was a noob and we all knew he could take time to adjust. The question remains is half a season enough time? is a season? what about two? or three? How long did Sir Alex take to start winning? how long did Ancelotti take? etc etc. Sacchi is a different story all together, as he was entrusted with a stellar team at a time when Italy was second only to Germany in terms of industrial capability.

Oh, I'm thinking alright brotherman. Can't say the same about the guys in our management.


Not even them. I don't count their first five wins. Backed by another fascist dictator. There was Milan in the 90s, and there was Barcelona in the 2000s, while decade no particular team has been able to cement authority, though there have been a bunch of three or four at the very top.

Then again, this decade is barely half done here, so maybe some team can.


No they're not, this is where we take a different route. As I mentioned before, most of us here, at least here on Milanfan, have reasonable expectations. They can live with the results as long as they're met. While being in full knowledge of the all the missteps the management (in particular Galliani) has taken in the past few years.

For me, I don't even care about the results, only the way we conduct ourselves on the pitch. And off of it. If there's a broadcast on, I'll watch a Milan match even if they were playing in Serie B or C or Z, whatever. If not, I'll read up the results on the newspapers and websites. But not this mess, not this politicized mess.

I'm interested in the sports of it, not the spectacle. Though that also comes if you the team plays well.


Yeah, I don't have friends like these. I've brainwashed them into believing that their clubs are too mainstream, and are run by corrupt officials. In the case of Madrid it was easy, because or their dirty past and the fact that they've barely developed a player. For Barcelona, they have made it easy with their tactics and cheating.

The EPL clubs there was no need for such mind tricks. So almost everyone I know respects Milan and they don't tease about us, only hope for us come back into the elite circle. Obviously, having class acts like Maldini, Van Basten, Sheva, Nesta, Ibra and Silva play for us helps in carving out an image. Subliminal messaging!


Yeah, well Mr. B and Galliani are two corrupt bastards, you know that. I like what they've done with the place, and sure we wouldn't be here having this conversation if it were not because of these two individuals. Berlusconi in particular, but Galliani also had a part to play in our success. Just as they're having a say in our demise.

Point being, I respect what they've done for the team, but it wasn't exactly charity. One pocketed millions upon millions for the job, while other used the club to define his politics. It were the players and the fans that built Milan, and they are the real stakeholders. Even if they don't have a place in the power corridors.

But getting back to that point, all I want, all we want is a display of sanity, openness, right selection of players when it comes to transfers, signing up a genuine coach, trimming down of needless expenses, and showing that we have something as a project going on. Self esteem and respect doesn't require funds, now, does it?


Milan is more than Italy now. Has been for decades now. It's another matter entirely that the management did not have the foresight to market the club right, pitch it to audiences in the USA, the Middle East and the Far East. Even South America. All four are expansive markets, and could have helped us immensely.

They sign Honda now, when we could have snapped him up ages ago. A limited player, I know, maybe he could have developed better in company of legends, but there is no denying that he is the number one player in Asia, and we could have used that to our advantage. Opportunities delayed are opportunities lost.


I don't want to talk about Inzaghi, though. He's done some good things for us as a player, delivered where it mattered, but even though I have a fair amount of reservations for him as a person, he really should not have been hired as a coach. Not when we don't even has stability in the team, the squad.

Should have gone for a more experienced hand and given him time to do what he wants with the team. I was against the Seedorf appointment too, but at least he had tremendous footballing sense, and was trying to create a system. Failed, yeah, I know, But Inzaghi is just experimenting and hoping for this to coming out good.

And it's not about taking the time to adjust, it's about showing that there are adjustments. Doing the basics right, which he is not. Again, like I said, these are still early days, and I am prepared for a lot more changes in the coming moons. I'm already prepared for things to go a lot bad before they improve.

But that, in no ways, ties into my expectations and wanting things right now like a spoiled child. I'm prepared to wait, and wait for as long as it is necessary. Not like this, though, not what we, very clearly, seem to be going around in circles. And that too, with the so called experienced hands on deck.

Berlusconi and Galliani have been through this in the late 90s, when the cycle ended, and they made the same mistakes again. Missing out on key players, not splashing the cash where needed, and wasting it where it wasn't. Our current mess started right after our 2007 win. Everyone from Ancelotti to Allegri are at fault.

Along with the management, of course. They lacked foresight, and it's come back to bite us where it hurts!

Latest rumors:

• We're interested in Sneijder. He could come on loan for six months in January, then we'll see. Honda won't be available in January due to participating in the Asia Cup.
• We want to find two substitutes for Abate and De Sciglio. The most quoted names are Uchida of Schalke and Leonel Vangioni of River Plate.
• Armero, Zaccardo, Albertazzi, Pazzini and Niang will probably be sold/let go.
• Suso is a serious objective, but there's fear that he won't be able to adapt to Serie A in January without preparation.

Source: Mediaset

I'd love Sneijder. The guy is only 30 and can more than cut it in Italy. The other two names (Uchida and Vangioni) would be useless. They're certainly not better than Armero.

Sneijder would be a nice signing. Uchida is decent, but as you said it's pretty pointless when we had MDS and Armero in the squad. Don't really understand the Suso chase either.

Yay for Sneijder, a million times over! Make it happen, make it happen!

This Armero thing absolutely bewilders me.

But yes, I would take Sneijder. He's younger than I realised and his wages aren't too high at Galatasaray.

€3.2 million a season, yeah. If he's willing to take a pay-cut at around €2.5 million I would gladly have him.

We're interested in Okaka for January. Our offer is Pazzini + cash.

Link

I think Okaka is a very talented striker. Would be a good deal.

Wow he's only 25? Felt like he was playing for Roma a long time ago. I like him, would depend how much cash they want though.

Yeah, he debuted with Roma when he was only 16. To be honest, I've always rated him, even when he was playing for Bari. But somehow he never managed to make that big leap forward. Now I think he's ready.

If we are going to be dealing with Samp, I would much prefer to try and snatch Gabbiadini. He is left footed, and he could play on the right, and use that left foot to cut inside.

I personally don't rate him that much.

I am now cynical about any player we're interested in. For the simple reason that they can't be that good if they want to come to us.

Our stock is worse now than it was during the summer window.

25 years, never managed to score more then 7 goals. Didn't cut it with Roma, most probably wouldn't with us too. I don't think it would be a good investment.

What's that about Sneijder? Is he really on our radar or was it just a rumor that went cold?

Okaka is just a big lumbering player, he might work for the smaller clubs who punt the ball at him and he bullies his way through but I can't really see him doing it for the big clubs

That being said, Pazzo seems to be finished so if the cash sum is not too steep I'd swap him with Pazzo and that cash

But what's the point really. Look at the strikers that recently failed at Milan: Torres (?), Pazzini, Matri. All prima punta strikers who are not compatible with the way we play. And if it's one thing I don't want for us to change, it's the fact that we still didn't transform in a small - one man - team.

Are you implying that we don't need a prima punta, at all? Matri failed because he sucks. Pazzini is mediocre. Torres is past his prime. It's not like all these players you mentioned have a common attribute that made them fail. They're just not good enough. Bring in someone like Diego Costa or Cavani and you'll see how much better they'll perform.

I'm sorry but I don't agree with that. Cavani and Diego Costa are top notch players but they're rarely going to create for you.

The foundation of this problem is that we want to rely on a striker to do everything when our midfield is pure sh!t and it's the problem, not the strikers.

The only type of striker that could in any way shape or form improve us and still be prolific himself is Ibra or someone in that kind of mould. A Prima Punta, no matter how great he is relies on the service of others, and that's why they'll continue to fail with this team we have.

I think Matri is mediocre, but give him service and he'll hit an average amount of goals for you each year (like he did at Juve), he had none with us. I'm personally still shocked that Pazzo managed to look good with us during his first season as we just don't create good enough chances, especially when you have a player like him that lives off of those chances created by others.

I'm not saying we don't have any issues in attack, far from it. But I do think that we're seeing this kind of struggle because Torres barely has any bread crumbs to live off of. We're using the long ball on him and using him like a target man, that's how desperate and uncreative our midfield is atm. I still believe Torres can be half decent with us, but it won't happen until he actually gets any chances. He works hard during the game, I can see that, constantly making runs and trying to fight for the ball but it's pointless for him to make those runs if no one is capable of spotting him and making the through pass for him

Agreed with that.

Yep, agreed here as well.

I don't. Top class CFs can score even without service.

Ibrahimovic is a screamer of an example. As was Torres in his heyday. People forget how sh*t that Liverpool actually was, 2005 aside.

But I also take Han's point about midfield service. Fact is Torres ISN'T a top class CF now, and needs help.

We all have an idea of what the ultimate (current) Milan team would line up as: De Jong, MvG, Bonaventura, Monto. 3 of those 4. Menez and SES flanking Torres as a 3 striker prong. There would be service there.

But we're stuck with Essien, Muntari and Honda so basically, what's the point in whining. Pippo's gonna do what Pippo's gonna do.