Sure, but same can be said when we went out to Barca or Juve went out to Bayern under Conte.

What Allegri has done with Juve in the league is nothing that we all didn't expect to happen. What he's done in the CL is nothing different to what he already did with us and what Conte did with Juve.

And it's not like he's going to KO any of those teams based on tactical fortitude. He's a very limited coach, that's my point, as long as he has great players and he has a better team than his opponent he'll usually do well, but once he loses that he simply has no know how to fall back on

If Juve lose Vidal and Pogba this summer, then we'll talk more about this


Well of course I'm talking about the quality of opponent. Juve as usual were lucky with the teams they faced (has nothing to do with Allegri, they're just historically a lucky team when it comes to these draws). Allegri went as far as he did because they've so far not face anyone half as good as they are. And whereas Conte faced the big team in the quarters Allegri is facing them in the semis.

They lost to Atletico in the group stage. They only just scraped past Monaco.

You make them out to be far better than they are.

Losing to Atletico in Madrid is hardly something terrible. They could have performed better against Monaco, true, but they passed in the end and that's all that matters.

This entire debate is a paradox.

On one hand I'm defending Allegri, the other I'm condemning Juve.

On one hand you lot condemn Allegri, the other you defend Juve ha.

Juve's best season since...? 2003? Conte being out-Conte'd with his own team.

How am I condemning Allegri? I said if Juve lose to any of those three teams Allegri won't be at fault. I'm actually defending him!



It's the details that make the difference. Conte got Bayern, Allegri got Monaco. Again, not trying to bash Allegri, but your praise isn't entirely justified either, cos he ain't doing more than what Conte did.

But you've also given him no credit for Juve being in the semis. It's basically all down to the players and weak opposition under your logic!



Technically he is - Juve only had to beat Celtic in the last 16 under Conte to get to the quarters, while Allegri's Juve had to overcome the schizo Dortmund who stink in Germany but actually did very well in the UCL, and last year's La Liga champs and UCL finalists Atletico.

As further food for thought, he also beat the Dortmund side who put away Arsenal.

As yet further food for thought, Conte's Juve didn't even MAKE the KO stage last year, beaten to it as they were by Galatasaray.

In simple, blunt, honest terms, Allegri is doing better with Juve than Conte did. Conte won Serie A by 17 points. Allegri is already 15 ahead with 8 games left to further increase that lead. And he's simply outdone Conte in the UCL.

As much as you guys must hate to admit it, Allegri has taken a Juve team who were crumbling in Europe under Conte and got them first time to the semis. While maintaining domestic dominance with ease.

And if you honestly want to say the players are to be credited for this and not the manager, then you're actually admitting Allegri's better as well because he's motivated them to work harder for him than Conte did.

You know why Conte will still get the credit? Because Conte won the league when Juve did not have the better team by a country mile in the league.

He did it while Allegri was the one benefitting from that and managed to lose the league to Conte himself

Getting to the CL semis is all well and good when you've not faced any decent opposition up until said semis. I've backed him to reach this stage since I saw the draw, I actually thought Juve would do much better against Manaco than what they actually did, which is scrape through on a penalty

Conte had Chelsea in his group that season, so that evens it out

But it's true. This season's Dortmund and Monaco were hardly worthy opponents. I don't care if they both beat Arsenal, they're just not good enough.



And I say those stats you bring don't reflect reality. Yes, Conte failed last season in Europe, no doubt. But let's compare the first seasons for each manager. Conte won the league and got them in the CL QFs, where they faced Bayern. Allegri is making them win the league (who cares by how many points, geez!) and got them in the CL semis, but having faced the weakest side of the eight in the QFs. That's all the difference, and why I say the opponent you get matters, a lot.

That's me told! You basically don't care if it defends Allegri!



Why?



Guess we can kiss goodbye to our 2007 UCL then. Our group was a shitey Lille, AEK and Anderlecht, before Celtic last 16, then that weak Bayern of 2007 (they finished 4th in the league) and only then did we face a decent Man Utd before the perenially cr*p Benitez Liverpool.

Is this really the logic you want to go with?

Because you can't compare one season with two seasons, duh. And it makes more sense to compare their first ones in the CL as Juve managers.



Yes.

It's no surprise, we had a relatively easy run that season in the CL, one of the main reasons we actually won the thing. I've had Inter fans thrown that to my face many times. But we still won. Let's see what Juventus does.

Winning the CL is just as much about luck as it is about how good you are

In 07 we had already started our decline, the league exposed how much we were already struggling.

But yes, we were very lucky with the draws, with only United being a real challenge for us. But you have to admit that we seriously brought it in some of those games leading to the final. The Bayern away game and the United home game were truly some of the best football we've played under Carlo. When I think about a perfect football match the game against United and the game against Liverpool in 05 (minus the 6 minute blip) are the ones that instantly come to mind for me.

And yes so far Juve have been very lucky, and if they were to WIN it, absolutely no one would care how they got there, but the fact is that they most likely won't and Allegri getting them one step further than Conte did because he was dealt an extra hand of luck ultimately means nothing. And if they lose both legs it won't matter in co-efficient points either.

Because Dortmund and Monaco are easier than Galatasary and Copenhagen.

I love how when Allegri is doing well, there's excuses galore for everything. When Carlo sucks it up it's "Well he focused on the CL" When it's pointed out we mostly played bad opposition in the CL, there's more excuses.

You just need to admit you're wrong on this and move on, no wonder hardly anyone posts.

Yeah I'm done here.

But Conte did fail in his second CL spell, no-one is claiming otherwise. And Allegri is doing well for Juve, that's obvious. The fact that he was given a proven and established team is another undeniable fact.

What we're talking about here is his path through the CL, which, like it or not, has been facilitated by picking affordable opponents. If he had gotten Barça in the Ro16 he'd most probably be already out, and you wouldn't be talking like that.

Anyway,

Barça-Bayern
Juve-Real

Juve can make it. Madrid are not unbeatable, but they must put 101% in both games.

The other game is going to be glorious.

How am I wrong exactly?

And where did I not admit that we were very lucky that last time that we won the CL?

The only time you'll see me admitting to being wrong about Allegri is if he ever achieved anything when he did not have the absolute best team.

I said from the start that Juve will win the league by November, which they practically did, has nothing to do with Allegri but the quality they have compared to the rest of the league

I predicted a quarter final run in the CL. And you can't say they weren't lucky, coming in second in their group (barely scraping through might I add) usually devises a terrible path to the final for most teams. Instead they were handed the weakest of the group winners and then followed that with the weakest team that was left in the knock outs for the quarter finals. And once again they barely got through on a penalty and some seriously dirty play in the away leg.

If Juve lose some of their best players this summer we'll talk more about Allegri

Until then, when I think of him I think of some of the worst football that Milan had played up until that point since I've been watching (Pippo probably taking that cake now, but it's still cutting it close), I still remember how he lost a title that he should have breezed through, and I remember his last season with us were we were an utter horror show.

You excuse him because he lost his star players, but would you also excuse him if he lost his stars at Juve and plummeted them as well?

This is probably the only place on the internet where I actually see Allegri getting defended as a good coach. You and Danny being the only cases on this forum

Aaaaaand we're talking about Allegri again.

Don't know about that. I think Real are one step too far for them

They obviously have some very clear weaknesses but this is the first real top notch, undoubtedly top class team Juve will have faced all season. I think it will be something akin to a culture shock for them when they face Real

Aren't we always!

Sort of distracts from the absolutely abominable season we're having overall.

Well we basically have nothing left to discuss, even match threads are absolutely dead at this point.

The only thing left to discuss that is actually about Milan is a possible take over and even that is seemingly about to turn into another winded story.

I read on forbes that Bee isn't even rich enough to front the money that's being talked about

Interesting discussion on Allegri :-). Have to confess that I am starting to wonder if I have been wrong about him, and perhaps some of the "poor decisions" we have blamed on him were the result of pressure from B or G. I don't give him much credit for Serie A, as the scudetto was his to lose (as it was in his first two years at Milan). But even accounting for quality of opponents, getting to the semis in CL is an achievement. Will see how it goes from there, don't think they can get past Real (but you never know).

As for Bee, I have been wondering about him as well. Sounds like we may be better off if the Chinese buy us. But, either way, something needs to happen, can't take one more year of this ...

It's no secret that Silvio hated Allegri, but he was loved by Galliani and the only reason he lasted for so long was because of that fact. For me, his decisions and tactical incompetency was down to himself alone and no one else. I don't think Galliani was pressuring him to play Urby as an AM...

What he's doing with Juve now so far for me has been as I expected since he went there. He hasn't really pushed outside of the realm of what most people expected from him either

MS report he wants Klopp.

Bee?

I don't think he's a real viable option, at least not one we should hope for from what I read

Yup, Mr Bee.

Like I said, some serious doubts have arisen with regards to any possible takeover, especially with the money being quoted.

I read on Forbes the his net worth and his company's revenue isn't anywhere near what's needed in terms of just the takeover, let alone making this club successful after the fact

I really don't think he's a good solution for us at this point

We'd be going from a stingy billionaire to an even stingier millionaire

We'll see.

Don't believe what just one source outlet says. Anything is speculation at this point. The only sure thing is that Silvio wants to sell and it will most probably happen.

I'm concerned about any Asian owners tbh. I can't think of a single 'Oriental' or Far Eastern owner who's ploughed cash into their new club and made a success of it.

Hate to put it like this, but we need a Middle Eastern or Russian Sugar Daddy who wants a new toy. And is willing to chuck stupid money at it to make it happen.

But would someone like that ever invest in a Serie A side?

I personally don't think so

Why invest in PSG and Monaco? Is the French league so much more lucrative than the Italian one?

But does the French league have as many issues as Serie A?

In theory no, the French league or its teams are certainly not as prestigious as Serie A Clubs, but in the long run I think they're a much more sound investment

More suitable for instant success?

Are you saying Ligue 1 generates more revenue than Serie A?



How?

Mitigating circumstance for Monaco is it's a tax haven. Much easier to get the big names there and to invest when half your cash isn't going immediately to the government in levies.

No not saying that, but I'm not just talking about the league in a vacuum here, I'm talking about the country, the stadiums and as Danny mentioned with Monaco it's already got one major bonus factor to consider as well

Because the league itself has lesser quality then Serie A. I'm not talking about PSG and Monaco who obviously have/had stars in their team. But the midtable and bottom table teams are less then good.

Untrue. Ligue 1 is littered with Bordeaux, Lyon, Marseille, Lille, St Etienne, Rennes, and it's worth pointing out two of them split PSG and Monaco right now at the top.

And most bottom teams in most leagues are less than good!

France right now isn't what it was in the early 90s and late 90s, but it's still a strong league. Unfortunately its best players tend to get taken by the marquee clubs in other countries, like Lille's Hazard to Chelsea or Monaco's James to Real etc.

I disagree. It's a matter of opinion, but bar Marseille and Lyon maybe, all other Italian "top" teams (Lazio, Roma, Inter, Napoli, Fiorentina, even Samp and Milan) are stronger then the teams you named. You basically have PSG like Juve in Italy, and then a big gap. But other then Lyon and Marseille, there's no important or strong side. What makes you think Rennes, Lille, Bordeaux or St. Etienne are stronger then Lazio, Roma, Napoli and Inter?

If someone was willing to throw insane amounts of money on us like they did with PSG, we'd have no problem competing for and winning the league. Only Juve would prove an obstacle.

I didn't. I said they weren't inferior. That was your claim, that it had less quality. I'm disputing that.

Nice on, Juve.

Beating RM is indeed an accomplishment. However, 2-1 will be hard to defend at the Bernabeu.

They beat a truly awful Real and conceded an away goal.

It's Madrid's to lose.

Hmm, sort of agree there to a degree

Real's defending was just unbelievably bad, and wtf was Sergio Ramos doing in midfield?

I think Juve played it well. Real though had some serious chances to take it away from them as early as the frst leg, especially when they hit the post.

We'll see what happens. Allegri has been in situations like this before. I thought he did brilliantly against both Arsenal and Barca with us a few years ago only for us to completely crumble away from home. The Monaco game didn't give me much confidence that this is something that can't happen, even if Juve barely hung on for the draw.

Schalke managed to beat them at home. Anything is possible. I can see Juve passing. Madrid are just poor defensively.

Sure, but when Real really pressed them, they were getting in behind them and cutting them like a hot knife through butter.

We'll see, 2-1 is a bit of a banana skin result.

Trust Carlo to provide a spectacular comeback in Madrid.

Then again, I'm hoping for a Juve draw at 1-1. Allegri will prove a point if he goes through. Now that Juve have secured the Scudetto, they have the CL at the center of their focus.