Juventus just don't have CL DNA inside them. However well they may play at CL level they just don't know how to win.

I've preached this for years, and as Han knows, I got abused elsewhere for saying it. By Milan fans! But, the results bear my view out.

They just don't know how to do CL.

And the fact they're actually not very good at at doesn't help - further evidence of the decline of Serie A in CL. Milan aside.

Nope, don't really need to, no matter how they played they still lost to a Greek side. And most people won't have seen it either, they'll look at this result and the Roma one and they'll come to their own conclusions

Roma were awful yesterday, totally and completely outclassed by Bayern, this is the side that is basically the only other challenger in our league for the title while the undisputed favourites can't even win against a Greek side and got humbled by Atletico. This says it all about Serie A in general

I know Roma were just naïve in how they approached the game, but I would expect a tactically astute coach/team to approach a game against one of the top 3 sides in world football right now more prepared than they were, instead we saw an idiotic gung-ho performance. At least in the past with Italian sides you'd at the least expect them to be stubborn and incredibly difficult to break down. Juve's loss is just the icing.

Hopefully the clubs in the EL do better tomorrow.

We haven't been great shakes in Europe either for a while now, we've only gotten past the last 16 once since we won it in 2007 and have been repeatedly humbled by Barca and once against Man U during that time. Fact is Italian sides just cannot compete in terms of quality.

However there shouldn't be any excuses for Juve, they have a far better team than Olympiacos and still lost, yeah they're not a good continental side, that's true, the fact that they've only won the thing twice in their history considering all the riches they had throughout the years says it all

Olympiacos are actually a very solid team. They also beat AM at home on opening night. They lost at Malmo but they should have won there too.

That said, I agree with what you say about Juventus lacking CL DNA.

Then you can't really say they got humiliated. Juve completely dominated the second half, and the only reason they didn't score 2-3 goals tonight was because Olympiakos' goalie made some incredible saves.

I would agree with what Danny said every other day of the week, but not tonight. Tonight Juve played well and didn't deserve to lose.

Besides, Olympiakos also beat Atletico Madrid, last year's finalists and Spanish champions, so you shouldn't underestimate them.

That was mine

But they did. And that's my point. Look at this picture:



That's a Barca (last season) who 'didn't deserve to lose' - but Celtic, until this season, were basically unbeatable at Parkhead no matter WHAT you did, how well you played.

Have you ever seen stats like those?

Well Celtic knew how to win at home - regardless of what Barca threw at them.

Juve are the opposite - they can play as well as they like, as Barca did that night, but they just do not have the mentality or CL 'stuff'.

They are not, never have been, and never will be a CL team. They are a domestic titan, but it will never translate to Europe.

Errr what? We've made it to the last 16 5 times since 2007.



I agree there, but Milan are by far the most successful at this level. Even last season when we were domestically woeful we still got to the last 16. More than a supposedly stronger Juve did, with a weaker group than we had.



I remember the match they drew v Galatasaray - they played 'well' that night and 'deserved' to win. But the fact is they didn't.

Winning is about knowing how to win, not deserving to.

Press in UK giving Balo absolute dog's abuse. Not abuse, you understand, but utterly valid criticism.

Every passing failed match, every passing addition to his 'emotional baggage' collection continues to vindicate myself and X in terms of not being able to shove him out the door fast enough. I was overjoyed we got £16M for him, because now everyone seems to think Liverpool were robbed. And they were.

It was plain to those who understood that Balo is just a lost cause, and moving to Anfield wasn't going to make him anything else.

The guy, quite simply, is a total and utter d*ck and he ruins every club he's at.

I'm just glad it's a club I hate he's now doing it to

No better club for him to fail at too. Fans so full of self delusion it's unreal. This post when he signed was embarrassing to read.

So tweeting this

DP

I wrote "into" instead of "past". Fixed it. We've only got past the last 16 once during that time period

Yup. Had my doubts, somehow believed that maybe Pippo could bring out the champion in him, and felt we should have gotten more money out of him on a transfer. However, it looks like he is hopeless. Good riddance !

Serie A lost its fourth CL seating for a reason, that reason is evident for the past 15 years. Whereby Milan was the only notable 'constant' from Italy. Even at EL (uefa cup) level, Italian teams never really ventured past the early knockouts in that same period.

Fundamental Perspective: On the upside, let us look at how the German teams fared over the course of the same period. How competitive were they in collecting European coefficient points? How long did it take? How did the WC2006 play a role in advancing the Bundesliga to its status these days? Think the answer to all these queries is simple, the German government invested in this sector directly and indirectly over the course of the past 15 years lets say.

Macroeconomic Perspective: It is also important to note Italy as a country has regressed significantly, to the extent that it rivals Spain, Greece, Ireland, and Portugal in the deficit its respective governments is running on. To this very day, Germany and to an extent the UK(or London in particular) has done better coming out of the recession of 2007-9 in comparison.

Is it a coincidence Italian football is where it is? The government needs to allocate funds to invest in a European Cup or World Cup. In 1990 the Italian gov't funded the WC and promoted the Italian game. It is not a spontaneous spark of when you spend money, but how. Italians surely, as proven historically, have the know-how, they just do not have a gov't as healthy as that of England or Germany to help 'promote' the domestic league.


And that is in a nutshell of what I believe is going on. Will Milan surprise? Well, Athletico Madrid did and that is enough of a confirmation to what we can aspire to become given the right circumstances.

...

Roma-City after two weeks should be interesting.

Can't see Roma beating them. They needed City to lose today or at least draw.

City are even more chokers than Roma in CL. I don't think they will win in Italy.

Regardless, it's going to be a cracker. I just hope it were Bayern in City's position. Even more of a cracker. I would still give it to Roma if they can bring their A game, but anything less and they can go bye bye.

Chokers or not, they only lost 1-0 to Bayern in Munich in the last minute, and actually beat them at home. Roma overall conceded 9 goals against Bayern, only scoring once. I agree with Acid, it's going to be a cracker. Any result is possible, but I see City as favorites right now. They can pass if they draw 1-1 and above, always assuming that CSKA lose against Bayern. If CSKA draw in Munich, then any draw between City and Roma would get Roma through. That's what I read anyway.

Keep in mind that City won against Bayern only after Bayern had already gone through the group, had Bayern still needed to qualify it would most likely have been a totally different game

According to wiki, the tiebreakers suggest any draw would put Man City through as tiebreakers are first from the whole group, then from the matches between each other. Surely that's not right.

Fact is that Italy will most likely end up with only one them in the KO's, a terribly rubbish Juve at that who have been failing in this competition for decades

At this rate I can't see us keeping our 4th ranking for too much longer

Gazzetta said that if all three teams end up with 6 points, Roma go through.

I would have thought that would be the case too. Seems weird wiki suggests Bayerns results matter in a 3 way tiebreak.

Why would Roma pass, though? What's the rule?

I wish Roma would pass, but its like banging your head to a wall. Or a miracle. City are better equipped to go through with at least two goals.

Roma could surprise, however they are far to weak for CL heavyweights like Bayern or City.

Watching Juve play is a delight. Not only for the fast and attractive football, but also because everyone runs like a damned and sacrifices himself for the team, showing an admirable altruistic spirit. Compare that to how we play, where everyone runs at the pace of a snail, and individualism reigns high, and you get a clear picture of how many worlds apart we are.

And yet...Allegri's their manager. Just thought I'd throw that in there...

As of yet he has not destroyed them, in fact he's arguably improved them.

Improved? Nah, Juve have been like this for the past two years. Like you said, he hasn't destroyed them, which is an achievement for Mr. Antifootball.

Juve are still playing the same way now as they did when Conte was there.

He hasn't improved them imo. They're top of the league as we all expected they would be given the quality they have compared to the other teams in the league and they're still terrible in Europe when faced with a mildly difficult opponent.

As x-off said, at least he didn't take them backwards, I wonder how he does long-term there if they start losing their best players.

Even if the quality of the league was higher, Juve would still be first. They are really good. That midfield (Pirlo, Pogba, Marchisio and Vidal) is pure class, one of the best in Europe. Then they've got pretty decent defenders in Chiellini, Lichtsteiner and Bonucci (who has improved significantly over the last couple of years), as well a top striker in Tevez. There are very few things they lack. Perhaps a quality striker to pair with Tevez, but I think Morata has all the potential to fill that void.

I really hope they beat Atletico with a 2+ goal difference and top the group. The truth is I don't like them in general, but in Europe I'm always supporting Italian clubs. Even if I don't want to, something inside of me that makes me want to support them.

Yes, agreed. Inter being my exception sometimes.

Which further makes the point, that it's hard for Allegri to really mess up with them as the quality of the league is that much inferior to them. Last season they were already running away with it during this period IIRC

Still, they're chokers in Europe and I don't think they'd really find it as easy if the league were actually competitive and the other big clubs had any actual quality. Right not their direct competition being Roma, who are also perennial chokers domestically as well speaks for itself

Neil Lennon's Celtic. 3 SPL titles in a row, and year-on-year qualification to CL group stage.

Under their new manager Deila and no player losses, they took till the most recent match to finally go top on goal difference, and lost 6-1 on aggregrate to Legia Warsaw before being comically reinstated then losing their next match anyway.

A new manager can indeed ruin a well-established team and the SPL isn't exactly Serie A...

Just like a great manager can make an average team look unstoppable (Conte/Simeone)

Listen, all scenraio's can apply in different specific situations.

But with Juve what we're seeing is basically the same thing we saw with Conte, Allegri has said so himself that he does not want to rock the boat (so to speak) and change things too much. But fact is, he has a team that is heads and shoulders above the rest of the league both in terms of quality and morale.

I've said from day 1 that if the Juve management don't sell their star players then I personally still see Juve sweeping all before them domestically no matter who's coaching them

Allegri's only real test at Juve imo is the CL, he needs to get them past the last 16 and have a good quarter final showing in order to improve on what Conte did, because domestically there really isn't much else to do considering he took over a record breaking team and the rest of the league is what it is

I think you guys are going in circles.

That's the leitmotif of this forum.

What's new?

You're both right, which per se isn't new

No one watching CL or?

Typical Roma display. Garcia playing with stupid tactical schemes and their loser mentality once again prevailing. Not good for Italy; second year in a row we got reduced to Juventus.

Roma are plain chokers! That's why no matter how many people try to talk them up for the title I know for a fact that they won't really put up a challenge for the title. Juve will just mosey on to it without much trouble or fan fair

With regards to the CL, well, typical of Italian teams in the past few years really, and with only Juve there who unless are really lucky an get and easy draw, it will be another no-show for Italy in the QFs

At least we have some very strong teams in the EL and most of them should really mount a good challenge for it. The only way to try and gain ground on Germany is to do it how they did, through the UEFA Cup/EL

I was watching Zlatan.

Good for you. For all I know, Barcelona-PSG was a amusing match while I lost my nerves with those Roma chokers.

Agreed with you Han. But what especially disappointed me today was Rudy Garcia and his tactics. Rigid, leaving key players on the bench,...very poor match on his side.

I have a Roma friend and he told me he wouldn't mind going out, cos he wants to win the scudetto. And I have to agree with him. Roma are just too green for Europe yet. By focusing solely on the league, I think they have a fair chance of winning the title.

Just goes to show the gulf in quality that separates Roma and City.

Just goes to show the gulf in quality that separates Roma and City.

But to be quite fair, today quality didn't decide actually and the difference wasn't as evident as one might suppose.