Well you know, Chiellini's action deserved red, the handball deserved a penalty, just like the in-box holding and fouling...IMO it's really pointless in discussing such an obviously bad referee.

WhaI'me really ashamed of is a having a Seedorf on the pitch, not about saying that some of the players we have don't deserve the shirt.

I think it's justified to say whether a player does or doesn't derve the shirt. Do you honestly feel Seedorf is someone that deserves it???

Because all he's shown towards the shirt for these past few seasons is nothing but disrespect. Kalac? Humble and loyal as he might be, no he's not good enough to have as third choice, look wht happened against Juve, we were cought without either Abbiati or Dida and we're really lucky that Juve are toothles atm, because they could have pounced on all the flaps he made. I don't see this as disrespectful, after all this is my own oppinion and I'm sharing it on the Milan forum.


Exactly!!


1. Had the club been managed better when things started going down hill we wouldn't need to put ourselves in such debts Jack, like I said about our famour 'quick fixes' sure they might have come cheep and covered the neccissary areas back in 05 and 06 when all the starters were at their best, but now that we are facing Paolo retirment, Nesta injury trouble, Seedorf, Rino, Ambro, looking retirment in the face (they're all approaching 33 and non of them are Paolo), but now, all these players are going to keep declining and we're still trying to do what we did back then. Can you honestly say you're not worried about the Tiago Silva-Bonera CB partnership for next season, because that scares me to death, especially combined with the fact that Carlo doesn't seem to know how to organise his teams defensively. If Milan are to ever get out of this hole that the management themselves have dug, it has to be by spending the money that they haven't been spending for the past 4 seasons. The last time Milan actually had a good transfer season was in 03.

And I'm sorry but where is the money going? We're playing every friendly imaganable, reduced oursleves to going for the commercial players in order to sell shirts and so on. Not to mention the money from sales like that of Sheva? Where has that money gone? Galliani keeps 'threatening' the fans with selling to Kaka and Pirlo to erradicate depths but last time I checked Milan were one of the few teams in Europe that is NOT running on depths.

2. I think my commenting regarding a club's history came out harsher then intended, because I do care of what Milan have achieved in the past and I am proud of my club. But like I said, we can't keep using that as a safety net for mediocre showings. With Galliani's thinking Milan could just pack up and ship out and not try anymore, sit on our @sses and whenever Milan is mentioned we point to the trophy list.

3. No it's different, because you are suggesting that we as a team have been battling it out with Inter from the start. Liverpool on the other hand have been challenging United, it's not the same as our situation where we have been hovering over 4th the entire season and suddenly we're in 2nd because Juve has a melt down of massive proportions. Fact it, it's only now that Inter's results are even remotely effecting us because just a couple of weeks ago we were way behind them that it didn't matter to us whether they won or lost, I don't see that as being the same situation as Liverpool Man U and even Chelsea for that matter, becuase even if they had problems throughout the season they have maintained the points gap at a minimun distance.

Apart from the undeserved red card on Favalli I think the officiating was good.

Chiellini's punch on Kaka not even the cameras caught.

Who said calciopoli and the recession was an excuse han ?

Calciopoli affected five clubs directly; Milan, Juventus, Lazio, Fiorentina and Reggina. Out of the five, Milan and Juve were the ones who were severally hit financially because of the high expenses on their part. Juve had to off-load a lot of their high wage players to coup with their new environment in Serie B, as it was not feasible for them to keep hold of those players (which of course had also been weighed by the unattractive Serie . Milan on the other hand took a more conservative approach in terms of spending, considering the drop in their turnover for that year in particular.


Later on in the year, 2007, Italy went into a recession that weighed heavily on Milan and Juventus, as they are both owned by businesses that had direct correlation with the Italian Market.




(The above chart indicates how GDP has declined over recent years, till first quarter of 2008.)


So in terms of club spending, both these Italian powerhouses, in a theoretical sense can NOT spend, nor compete with their counterparts in the European top flight, because the local economy was deteriorating. Nevertheless, Milan continued to spend and bring in players in order to keep Milan’s status as it is.


Inter, on the other hand are owned by an oil tycoon, who has seen a favorable time during 2007 and 2008, where oil peaked to an all-time high @ 147$ pb. This made funds in abundance. Hence, they are considered special in that sense and do not fall into a category of comparison.


Last year, in mid 2008, witnessed the infamous ‘Credit Crunch’ which extended from the American market (subprime mortgage crisis) to the European market, because European banks and institutions had direct and indirect dealings with the American mortgage markets, as they had bought off almost 30% of those mortgages. This impacted Juventus and Milan, as both their mother companies had been impacted by the recession in 2007 and then received a further hit by the global credit crunch, which inflicted tremendous damage on their investment valuations and their sales internationally.


Add to that the tax system in Italy, which stipulates:

38% tax on income between 28k eur – 55k eur.
41% tax on income between 55k eur – 75k eur.
43% tax on income above 75k eur.


The following Roma example, magnifies how bad Italian clubs are hit by the recession coupled with the credit crunch.


Take a good look at Roma, Sensi’s Italpetroli has debt well over 300MM eur and they can’t refinance their debt. They are looking at other means to increase capital to repay and one of the options on the table is selling Roma, because it is not generating cash, rather draining it. But that is something internal and I am not sure how they will renegotiate on that and whether they will syndicate their debt with other banks and coast for a little while longer.


Only a shrewd management can withstand this turmoil. Both managements of Juventus and Milan have been investing in their respective teams, in order to get them back on top. But it is not as easy as 1,2,3. Considering the above overview, in simplified form, of how devastating the Italian economy has been


Now take all this, and compare it with United or Chelsea. Which are in an economy deep in recession, and with the BOE (Bank of England), taking drastic measures to keep the economy afloat, considering they have the biggest exposure in subprime mortgages through hedge funds and other means, let alone their banks. So, England is also in a sticky mess, but because the EPL clubs are soaked in debt, the Barclays Bank has taken decision to rollover the existing debt and extends payments. In which case, the EPL remains untouched by the recession.


Having said that, Milan has been on Silvio Berlusconi’s lifeboat coasting through ever since the calciopoli … And considering Milan’s position in the standings today (although it could have been better with a better start to the season), I’d say Milan’s future looks bright.

Thanks for posting that explanation, R7. Hopefully it will help some folks understand the economic conditions facing Italian clubs, Milan in particular.

One thing not mentioned is the fact that the cugini, even with the economic advantages they've had the last couple of years, are still consistently running at sizeable losses.

And I'm still rather saddened to see the generally negative, doom-laden view of things. It really is sad that so many seem to only focus on the negative stuff they see without really acknowledging many (if any) of the positives.

Well, footballing matters like how a certain player plays or what system a coach chooses have little, if any, to do with all those economical matters.

I mean, now I can better understand why we're being so mean in the transfer market, but I will never understand some decisions made by the coach, for example.

Right. Football exists entirely in a bubble and is completely unaffected by economics. How silly of me.

You're being too defensive don't you think? Carlo's decision to play Seedorf, for example, week in week out while he's not performing well is affected by the economic crisis?

Seedorf, Seedorf, Seedorf...how interesting...

Well, gee. Pot. Kettle. Black. time here, methinks. You go off on people anytime they so much as hint that Pato isn't perfect, zeddie. You're not exactly the best person to start the defensiveness accusations.

However, for those who may actually not be wanting to attack me, I will clarify:

My comment was intended to be sarcastic as I clearly do think there's a very real connection between a club's economic position and how it performs in the long term.

I couldn't find a better example. OK, Carlo always going for 1 striker system has anything to do with all those thing? oh of course it has! how unaware I am.

I know I don't think of myself of being not defensive at least...

If you're not willing to read carefully and to think about the matter, it's not worth my or anyone else's time to try to explain it.

I personally believe it's a big issue; Seedorf has cost us MANY points.

The final straw was him smiling as he was being subbed. I wanted to punch him.

He could give a rat's patoot if Milan win or lose as long as he gets his playing time.

@ R7, while I do appreciate the economy lesson (not being sarcastic here I find it a fascinating topic), I still think that most of the time it's used as an excuse for not even trying to strengthen the team were it's needed, and I'm not even saying here that we should go out and offer 100m for CR for fun or throwing around the cash, because I do agree that the belts have been strapped thight by the economic situation, but to strengthen the areas that desperately need strengthening is a must imo. Sure last summer we spent some cash on transfers, but do I think that is was spent wisely? Hell no!! We overpayed for most of the players we bought, we even managed to over pay for a player that just a season ago we were desperate to off load.

Ok, going back to the financial issue and the depths of the club, personally I find using the recession as a reason for our situation as an excuse, that is just my oppinion, all the club have been effected, not just in Italy, in England? Clubs are run on millions of pounds in depth, they know this and as you said the Barclays Bank has managed to keep the EPL in a bubble, but I'm afraid that is a bubble that is soon going to burst, but still I can see the English clubs that are run by American companies going down hill or billionaires like Abramovic still going furthr in depth in order to maintain quality. They have found this a comfortable way to run their clubs, I'm not saying I want Milan to be run as such. But again is the money being spent wisely? I'm asking again, what's happened with the Sheva money, with the CL winning money? We haven't made any real major signing since Nesta, and aside from Kaka, Pato and Flamini, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that all the other transfers that we made were a waste, this to me suggests bad management. And again had players been brought in gradually over the years we wouldn't have felt the hit that we're going to feel this summer when it comes to transfers.

Regarding Calciopoli, I think I made myself pretty clear regarding that subject. I personally don't think it effected us as much as you're implying, we still maintained Serie A and CL status, our only loss was the 8 pts, Juve on the other hand were the ones that were really hit hard with it not us. And again, we should really stop mentioning it and using it as an excuse for everything that has gone wrong for us since then, like I said it was our fault in the first place for getting involved and we should have dealth with it, simple as that, it's useless crying over spilt milk.

But again, we're going on and on about the finances, but like zeddie said, I don't really think that get's into the whole other big issue we have in the coaching department, Calciopoli and recession certainly have nothing to do with that, bad tactical decisions and players selection are all on the coach. And finally Silvio has come out and commented on this issue, something I've been waiting for to finally happen. Hopefully we'll finally see a change in this department, because this here is 50% of our current problems