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> Milan - Juventus --- 10/5/2009

 
Jack Sparrow
post May 12 2009, 05:50 AM
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QUOTE (han2503 @ May 12 2009, 02:50 AM) *
I think it's high time we stopped using caciopoli as an excuse for everything, it's our faults we were involved in the entire mess and we have to deal with it.[b] Same thing goes for the recession, it's not only Milan that went through it, it's every club out there.

Man U Milan in 07, is a game that brings goose bumps to my skin just thinking about it, but it's in the past, and that is the last time I saw Milan play like champions.

And sure we have history, but to simply just sit on our laurels and everytime we screw up we say we don't care, we have history, we're the most titled club in the world (not true anymore, but funny enough it's still being printed on the the damn shirts) and blah blah and not doing anything about the situation we've out ourselves in. This has been one of Milan's biggest problems, anytime things go wrong you here the usual thing, we're fine as we are, we're still the most titled club in the world, I'm sorry but that does not erase the fact that we were so bad in the league last season that we couldn't compete with Fiorentina for 4th. The reason for that being the squad that has been declining at a rapid pace, not being able to compete with Inter, Juve and Roma, it's all a vicous cycle, a lot of people here saw this coming 2 seasons ago, but the reply of most was, no we still have the best midfield in the world, we're a club rich in history, we don't need to change anything and so on. This attitude has really cost us in the end.

When it comes to tresults, nobody cares what the club has won in the past, sure it's a nice thing to have but the most important thing is maintianing the club's competitiveness, and Milan have not done that.

Second this season? A couple of weeks ago we had Genoa breathing down our necks and a niggling doubt in our minds if next season will be a repeat of this one. You can thank Pippo's sudden burst to form for saving our @sses.

I just think it's getting old to keep making excuses and using something like the club's history as an excuse, when it should be something to be proud of, not a safety net to fall on when we can't do any better then mediocre


I'll just address the bolded points. Because the rest of it, is - while I don't agree with it- I can see your perspective.


1- Yes,every club goes through. How they handled it is a different matter. Man U regularly hits the 45-55 million mark every year on the transfer market. And I've shown you the Forbes club finance sheet to show you how they managed to do it. Having supported (still do actually) Newcastle and Valencia, I WILL NOT have my club take gambles mortgaging it's future to 'buy' trophies. Valuations 84% of the club's value as debt??!!!! Can you imagine something like that??

2. I do actually. Otherwise I would have been happy to support Chelsea and/or Manchester City. In fact we all ought to be supporting Chelsea/Man U in the EPL. Yet we don't. We cheer for Arsenal. I'm a nutcase- I cheer for Hull and Newcastle. If winning was a criterion for supporting a football club...it's weird. Ask Pana. He cheered for Milan after watching Juve demolish us 6-1. I watched Milan after seeing Maldini in the WC 1994. It's not about the cups, it's about the honour and prestige. It's why Inter will never be Milan, even if they win this scudetto and the next one. Because they can have the power of 10 Mourinhos and never replicate Milan-ManU: 3-0.

3. I don't get this point. In any league, the top 3-5 teams are always of relatively equal strength. You can never win a league without the others slipping up. Never. Manchester City led the Premier League some time back. Manchester United were 'breathing down the necks' of Hull City...in the EPL. Liverpool only got into the 'title chase' later because Man U f@cked up. Man U took the lead coz Chelsea f@cked up. And they kept it because Arsenal haven't gotten out of second gear this season. Hence by relation, I don't see this idea of 'challenging for the title' meaning you have to be neck and neck throughout the season (kurt's point). By that yardstick, you should say Capello's last Liga title, shouldn't count, since Madrid only came and stole it at the death. In a season, it's very rare for a team to play at a high quality throughout. There will be crests and troughs. You know this. You have to take advantage of the other teams's troughs and hope they don't/can't take advantage of yours. What's with this insufferable ego regarding Milan?? Just because this is the team we love the most, does not mean it's the greatest bestest footballing team ever by divine right and that anything less is a travesty- we would like it to be, but it can't. I love Keira, but does that mean I can blind myself to the fact that Scarlett's got a far more alluring bosom?? Or that Megan Fox still gets my heart fluttering (If she were British, Keira and I would have split!!)?





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MizNelson
post May 12 2009, 07:37 AM
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I can't help but wonder, if any other player besides Paolo had throttled Chiellini, would he have been sent off?
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Zed.D
post May 12 2009, 08:11 AM
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QUOTE (MizNelson @ May 12 2009, 10:07 AM) *
I can't help but wonder, if any other player besides Paolo had throttled Chiellini, would he have been sent off?

I think they would have been shown a straight red!
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Fillipo Simone
post May 12 2009, 08:49 AM
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The ref was terrible, made so many errors and false decisions...just unacceptable IMO.
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dst
post May 12 2009, 08:59 AM
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I don't think it deserved a red.
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Fillipo Simone
post May 12 2009, 09:06 AM
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Well you know, Chiellini's action deserved red, the handball deserved a penalty, just like the in-box holding and fouling...IMO it's really pointless in discussing such an obviously bad referee.
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han2503
post May 12 2009, 11:15 AM
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QUOTE (Fillipo Simone @ May 11 2009, 09:53 PM) *
Mostly ridiculous. I really hate does "deserve or deserve-not" label, because such discussions tend to bring nothing.

But the players designated - I mean, really. Pirlo, Ambrosini, Kaka, Pato and Flamini + some players not worth mentioning or just enough to invent a collective term like "few others". I don't know what to say? Is Kalac bad for 3rd choice? Is Dida bad for 2nd choice? Should I really go on, name after name? Such a disrespect is deeply connected with other perceptions, and I don't intend to re-open them, but just pointing out that I feel pretty much ashamed.

WhaI'me really ashamed of is a having a Seedorf on the pitch, not about saying that some of the players we have don't deserve the shirt.

I think it's justified to say whether a player does or doesn't derve the shirt. Do you honestly feel Seedorf is someone that deserves it???

Because all he's shown towards the shirt for these past few seasons is nothing but disrespect. Kalac? Humble and loyal as he might be, no he's not good enough to have as third choice, look wht happened against Juve, we were cought without either Abbiati or Dida and we're really lucky that Juve are toothles atm, because they could have pounced on all the flaps he made. I don't see this as disrespectful, after all this is my own oppinion and I'm sharing it on the Milan forum.

QUOTE (Zed.D @ May 11 2009, 10:02 PM) *
Firstly, you don't have to feel pretty much ashamed for what I did say!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Secondly, I was talking about the starting XI and regular subs not the bench warmers!!!

Thirdly! disrespect is Seedorf playing like he doesn't give a hoot about anything anymore. that's more disrespectful to the whole club and most of its fans than what the venomous Milan Fan member (aka zeddie) naming some names which won't go further than a forum. disrespect (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

And finally, to each their own opinion. you don't like it, fine, ignore it.

Exactly!!

QUOTE (Jack Sparrow @ May 12 2009, 04:50 AM) *
1- Yes,every club goes through. How they handled it is a different matter. Man U regularly hits the 45-55 million mark every year on the transfer market. And I've shown you the Forbes club finance sheet to show you how they managed to do it. Having supported (still do actually) Newcastle and Valencia, I WILL NOT have my club take gambles mortgaging it's future to 'buy' trophies. Valuations 84% of the club's value as debt??!!!! Can you imagine something like that??

2. I do actually. Otherwise I would have been happy to support Chelsea and/or Manchester City. In fact we all ought to be supporting Chelsea/Man U in the EPL. Yet we don't. We cheer for Arsenal. I'm a nutcase- I cheer for Hull and Newcastle. If winning was a criterion for supporting a football club...it's weird. Ask Pana. He cheered for Milan after watching Juve demolish us 6-1. I watched Milan after seeing Maldini in the WC 1994. It's not about the cups, it's about the honour and prestige. It's why Inter will never be Milan, even if they win this scudetto and the next one. Because they can have the power of 10 Mourinhos and never replicate Milan-ManU: 3-0.

3. I don't get this point. In any league, the top 3-5 teams are always of relatively equal strength. You can never win a league without the others slipping up. Never. Manchester City led the Premier League some time back. Manchester United were 'breathing down the necks' of Hull City...in the EPL. Liverpool only got into the 'title chase' later because Man U f@cked up. Man U took the lead coz Chelsea f@cked up. And they kept it because Arsenal haven't gotten out of second gear this season. Hence by relation, I don't see this idea of 'challenging for the title' meaning you have to be neck and neck throughout the season (kurt's point). By that yardstick, you should say Capello's last Liga title, shouldn't count, since Madrid only came and stole it at the death. In a season, it's very rare for a team to play at a high quality throughout. There will be crests and troughs. You know this. You have to take advantage of the other teams's troughs and hope they don't/can't take advantage of yours. What's with this insufferable ego regarding Milan?? Just because this is the team we love the most, does not mean it's the greatest bestest footballing team ever by divine right and that anything less is a travesty- we would like it to be, but it can't. I love Keira, but does that mean I can blind myself to the fact that Scarlett's got a far more alluring bosom?? Or that Megan Fox still gets my heart fluttering (If she were British, Keira and I would have split!!)?

1. Had the club been managed better when things started going down hill we wouldn't need to put ourselves in such debts Jack, like I said about our famour 'quick fixes' sure they might have come cheep and covered the neccissary areas back in 05 and 06 when all the starters were at their best, but now that we are facing Paolo retirment, Nesta injury trouble, Seedorf, Rino, Ambro, looking retirment in the face (they're all approaching 33 and non of them are Paolo), but now, all these players are going to keep declining and we're still trying to do what we did back then. Can you honestly say you're not worried about the Tiago Silva-Bonera CB partnership for next season, because that scares me to death, especially combined with the fact that Carlo doesn't seem to know how to organise his teams defensively. If Milan are to ever get out of this hole that the management themselves have dug, it has to be by spending the money that they haven't been spending for the past 4 seasons. The last time Milan actually had a good transfer season was in 03.

And I'm sorry but where is the money going? We're playing every friendly imaganable, reduced oursleves to going for the commercial players in order to sell shirts and so on. Not to mention the money from sales like that of Sheva? Where has that money gone? Galliani keeps 'threatening' the fans with selling to Kaka and Pirlo to erradicate depths but last time I checked Milan were one of the few teams in Europe that is NOT running on depths.

2. I think my commenting regarding a club's history came out harsher then intended, because I do care of what Milan have achieved in the past and I am proud of my club. But like I said, we can't keep using that as a safety net for mediocre showings. With Galliani's thinking Milan could just pack up and ship out and not try anymore, sit on our @sses and whenever Milan is mentioned we point to the trophy list.

3. No it's different, because you are suggesting that we as a team have been battling it out with Inter from the start. Liverpool on the other hand have been challenging United, it's not the same as our situation where we have been hovering over 4th the entire season and suddenly we're in 2nd because Juve has a melt down of massive proportions. Fact it, it's only now that Inter's results are even remotely effecting us because just a couple of weeks ago we were way behind them that it didn't matter to us whether they won or lost, I don't see that as being the same situation as Liverpool Man U and even Chelsea for that matter, becuase even if they had problems throughout the season they have maintained the points gap at a minimun distance.
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dst
post May 12 2009, 12:04 PM
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QUOTE (Fillipo Simone @ May 12 2009, 11:06 AM) *
Well you know, Chiellini's action deserved red, the handball deserved a penalty, just like the in-box holding and fouling...IMO it's really pointless in discussing such an obviously bad referee.

Apart from the undeserved red card on Favalli I think the officiating was good.

Chiellini's punch on Kaka not even the cameras caught.
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Rossoneri7
post May 12 2009, 04:28 PM
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Who said calciopoli and the recession was an excuse han ?

Calciopoli affected five clubs directly; Milan, Juventus, Lazio, Fiorentina and Reggina. Out of the five, Milan and Juve were the ones who were severally hit financially because of the high expenses on their part. Juve had to off-load a lot of their high wage players to coup with their new environment in Serie B, as it was not feasible for them to keep hold of those players (which of course had also been weighed by the unattractive Serie (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) . Milan on the other hand took a more conservative approach in terms of spending, considering the drop in their turnover for that year in particular.


Later on in the year, 2007, Italy went into a recession that weighed heavily on Milan and Juventus, as they are both owned by businesses that had direct correlation with the Italian Market.


(IMG:http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ngczZkrw340/SDcuJtIVwuI/AAAAAAAAFw0/tcnHXXuclqY/s320/italy%20qoq.jpg)

(The above chart indicates how GDP has declined over recent years, till first quarter of 2008.)


So in terms of club spending, both these Italian powerhouses, in a theoretical sense can NOT spend, nor compete with their counterparts in the European top flight, because the local economy was deteriorating. Nevertheless, Milan continued to spend and bring in players in order to keep Milan’s status as it is.


Inter, on the other hand are owned by an oil tycoon, who has seen a favorable time during 2007 and 2008, where oil peaked to an all-time high @ 147$ pb. This made funds in abundance. Hence, they are considered special in that sense and do not fall into a category of comparison.


Last year, in mid 2008, witnessed the infamous ‘Credit Crunch’ which extended from the American market (subprime mortgage crisis) to the European market, because European banks and institutions had direct and indirect dealings with the American mortgage markets, as they had bought off almost 30% of those mortgages. This impacted Juventus and Milan, as both their mother companies had been impacted by the recession in 2007 and then received a further hit by the global credit crunch, which inflicted tremendous damage on their investment valuations and their sales internationally.


Add to that the tax system in Italy, which stipulates:

38% tax on income between 28k eur – 55k eur.
41% tax on income between 55k eur – 75k eur.
43% tax on income above 75k eur.


The following Roma example, magnifies how bad Italian clubs are hit by the recession coupled with the credit crunch.


Take a good look at Roma, Sensi’s Italpetroli has debt well over 300MM eur and they can’t refinance their debt. They are looking at other means to increase capital to repay and one of the options on the table is selling Roma, because it is not generating cash, rather draining it. But that is something internal and I am not sure how they will renegotiate on that and whether they will syndicate their debt with other banks and coast for a little while longer.


Only a shrewd management can withstand this turmoil. Both managements of Juventus and Milan have been investing in their respective teams, in order to get them back on top. But it is not as easy as 1,2,3. Considering the above overview, in simplified form, of how devastating the Italian economy has been


Now take all this, and compare it with United or Chelsea. Which are in an economy deep in recession, and with the BOE (Bank of England), taking drastic measures to keep the economy afloat, considering they have the biggest exposure in subprime mortgages through hedge funds and other means, let alone their banks. So, England is also in a sticky mess, but because the EPL clubs are soaked in debt, the Barclays Bank has taken decision to rollover the existing debt and extends payments. In which case, the EPL remains untouched by the recession.


Having said that, Milan has been on Silvio Berlusconi’s lifeboat coasting through ever since the calciopoli … And considering Milan’s position in the standings today (although it could have been better with a better start to the season), I’d say Milan’s future looks bright.
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Tennie
post May 12 2009, 05:40 PM
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Thanks for posting that explanation, R7. Hopefully it will help some folks understand the economic conditions facing Italian clubs, Milan in particular.

One thing not mentioned is the fact that the cugini, even with the economic advantages they've had the last couple of years, are still consistently running at sizeable losses.

And I'm still rather saddened to see the generally negative, doom-laden view of things. It really is sad that so many seem to only focus on the negative stuff they see without really acknowledging many (if any) of the positives.
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Zed.D
post May 12 2009, 05:59 PM
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QUOTE (Tennie @ May 12 2009, 09:10 PM) *
And I'm still rather saddened to see the generally negative, doom-laden view of things. It really is sad that so many seem to only focus on the negative stuff they see without really acknowledging many (if any) of the positives.

Well, footballing matters like how a certain player plays or what system a coach chooses have little, if any, to do with all those economical matters.

I mean, now I can better understand why we're being so mean in the transfer market, but I will never understand some decisions made by the coach, for example.

This post has been edited by Zed.D: May 12 2009, 06:01 PM
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Tennie
post May 12 2009, 06:02 PM
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Right. Football exists entirely in a bubble and is completely unaffected by economics. How silly of me.
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Zed.D
post May 12 2009, 06:05 PM
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QUOTE (Tennie @ May 12 2009, 09:32 PM) *
Right. Football exists entirely in a bubble and is completely unaffected by economics. How silly of me.

You're being too defensive don't you think? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Carlo's decision to play Seedorf, for example, week in week out while he's not performing well is affected by the economic crisis?
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Fillipo Simone
post May 12 2009, 06:06 PM
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Seedorf, Seedorf, Seedorf...how interesting...
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Tennie
post May 12 2009, 06:08 PM
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Well, gee. Pot. Kettle. Black. time here, methinks. You go off on people anytime they so much as hint that Pato isn't perfect, zeddie. You're not exactly the best person to start the defensiveness accusations.

However, for those who may actually not be wanting to attack me, I will clarify:

My comment was intended to be sarcastic as I clearly do think there's a very real connection between a club's economic position and how it performs in the long term.
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