Agreed. He already had enough class to score from outside the box. It was just the confidence that was missing, which came back yesterday. I've only seen Pato and Ronaldo (R99, thank you) do that in a Milan shirt consistently. Which frankly is a good idea as opponent teams in Serie A park an A380 in front of the goal.

I believe NEVER should a GK be blamed for failing to stop a penalty. it's just a lottory, nothing more.

Our best players were Dida and Senderos IMO. Ronaldinho showed some great skills and made a few good through passes... he was OK. Kaka was not. I don't know why he falls down all over the place. looks like he still dizzy after his car accident!

Emerson and Favalli... I don't even want to comment on. though I have to thank Emerson for we played MUCH better after he was sent off.

Cardacio from what I saw last night, is more than just an ordinary player. he's like Flamini in a way, can make challenges and has a decent pass. he looks good going forward too. he is not just a DM. it was his debut and for many reasons he wasn't going to be able to show even half of his real potential. but I think it's worth it to work on him and play him a little more in league games. at least ahead of Emerson...



Welcome to our club mate.

Great post dst. completely agree with you!


Totally right.

Don't understand how some on here can turn their backs on Kaka but still defend Carlo with every breath they take. Yas Kaka is currently struggling a bit to regain form, but what do you expect from a guy who's been carrying the team all by himself for so long while struggling through his own injuries? And like you's said being played in a position that takes away half of his effectiveness. All this thanks to Carlo.

He is the one that popped up with the goals when Carlo's terrible decisions and tactics were leading us to get humiliated, look what happened last season against Arsenal, Kaka was played while being injured, he really couldn't do much of anything and we got knocked out.

It's like it's suddenly Kaka's fault for the way we're playing, not Carlo's who still insists on certain players that shouldn't even come near the bench let alone the first 11 and still uses tactics that have been proved as failures time and time again

dst described Carlo best here

han the man

After rethinking and reading all you comments I got to some random thoughts.

I don't think Ancelotti is an idiot, and I don't think he neccesary makes our situation worse. However, I agree he is too much unflexible and not ready to make compromises. Here's what I think of him: he is a great coach, a great planner and preparator, but in this moment, our squad is in such a condicion that all his bad spots and weeknesses appear even bigger, emphasized.

Milan reached a low in terms of motivation. There's only individual motivation left - Cardacio: "Happy to make my debut, despite the bad result" and Shevchenko: "Obviously I'm not pleased at the result, but I just want to think about my goal" are qoutes that just give the latest example. Sometimes Seedorf has a good day, but then the defense sucks. The other day the defense tops, but Seedorf sucks. One solution is to be stubborn, try the same again, again, try to project your (Ancelotti's) confidence to the players who don't have it or who have problems. To minimize the rotation and form strict habits. I'd do the same. But it does not work. I agree, it fails mostly.

What to do? We're no Parma, this isn't 3 legs till season end. This is not a situation period were you change your coach to gain short-term confidence for you team. A "sudden" coach change would not provide positive effect. Cause realistically seeing the matter, that's the only effect we can expect. Many squad players are in a peculiar and special condition. And our options? They are bad... Rijkaard, Donadoni,.. all of them not up to the test to make this condition better, not the coaches that "shook the world in Milan".

-------------------------------------------------

Now I've admitted more then just a bit. But that still does not mean I'm gonna start calling players and coaches names, make fun of them and present a bonefire of vanity and naive cynism. I'm not gonna change my approach and I'm not gonna torture myself more then neccessary. I'm not gonna loose my head and start acting like I don't remember what a defeat means, what a lost cup, scudetto, championship means. I'm not gonna act like this is the first row of bad results Milan had! I'm not gonna act like I watch Milan since 2002, 2003 or 04. I'm watching them way back, and I've expierenced all these thing before. Everything I say nice, positive or bona fide someone tries to bring me down! But I've seen 'nuff to know what to think! I'm sick of spending Sundays with Milan wishing they were Mondays! Just to skip the vicious comments and "jungle ethics" cynism!

Didn't get a chance to see Sheva's goal !! Just like old times

Sounds fine, Fillipo. whatever everybody wants.

This is a forum. no one is here to tell the others what to think.

dst thinks he's an idiot? his opinion. I personally think his time is simply up. if I've said he was stupid or things like that, I admit I was wrong and it was just the heat of the moment. but I strongly believe he needs to go because he's taking us nowhere, if our aim is to win the Scudetto.

So...Kaka still is beyond criticism and Emerson is evil incarnate. Right.

Think I'll check back in when there's a little more balance and a little less venom on this board.

I'm with Tennie on this. Kaka has been terrible in some games where he was not even trying to do anything. He looked like he did not even care.

Carlo and Kaka cannot be put together. Of course they are related but still they are two individuals.

Yes, but Kaka' did get the assist last night, he did his job. Emerson and Carlo did NOT do their job, that's why they're the ones getting owned today. In fact I'd say they - along with Favalli - were the biggest reasons why we threw it away. Getting sent off, giving away a penalty, and going all out defense is not the way to go.

I didn't watch the game but I wasn't surprised when I looked at the result.
Until Milan play great football and win by more than 2 goal margin, there isn't much hope.

simply put kaka dint do enough for to us win, while emerson contributed to us losing.

emersons mission is prettty simple out there, dont do anything stupid which he seems to every match now.
all we ask of him to not foul at every callenge, dont conceed penalties, cover space and mark, make short passes to our midfield and thats about it. but he's not able to do that.

kaka on the other hand is expected to be the difference pretty much all the time, which he hasnt and yes he has played poorly, but at least he doesnt do incredidebly dumb things out there.

Top teams need match winners. Notice the plural. We do seem to rely on Kaka' to perform in order to win games, so when teams just stick to him like glue and let him do nothing, we need somebody else to step up. We've not been getting that of late. Ronaldinho has been playing well, but he isn't doing that much from open play in the last month or so.

I don't know where this "Kaka didn't even care" come from as I think he was trying. Emerson and Favalli tried too. that's not the point. the point is, their destructive mistakes led us to defeat, while Kaka couldn't win us the game.

A big difference there.

I think this is when we need the Online Chat thing to be working can clear some stuff up!!!

2-3 gr8 through balls came from r80 yesterday imo he is doing quite well overall

hmm. tennie, i get why your growing weary of hearing the same thing repeated match in, match out. after every match we play the consensus is emerson sucks and kaka didn't have enough support.

but I pose this question in the spirit of civil discourse.

has there been a game yet this season where emerson has helped us win, where we can say wow, without emerson we wouldn't have won that game?

the way i see it, while yes, every game it boils down to criticizing carlo for playing emerson and the other underperforming veterans, and that can be tiring to read week in week out, I also don't remember us winning a game for a few weeks now! which is also a bit tiring/frustrating.

clearly something we're doing is not working. Benching Kaka even though he's dipped in form would be ludicrous. I am a realist, and i know that benching our World Player of the Year would be like shooting ourselves in the foot. so sure he takes a little blame for the dip in form, but he still must play. in reality its Emerson and Favalli and these types of players whose performances COST us matches. Kaka never COSTS us a match. There's never been a match where I have thought, wow kaka's performance is costing us. Emerson and Favalli on the other hand DIRECTLY lost this match against lazio for us..

have you seen our team play when kaka isn't playing? Palermo. Even when he IS playing we struggle. i mean its BAAD when he doesn't play, and we're mediocre when he does..

doesn't that in itself show that something else with the team is wrong besides his slight dip in form. He is far from the reason this slump is happening. He's a World Player of the Year type talent, so even on his off days he can be a match winner for us..

a huge reason as to why we want Emerson and Fav benched is because we actually HAVE players that can be more useful that end up just sitting and riding the bench while Emerson goes and plays like that. Who would come off the bench for Kaka and do his job better? Kaka on his off day still does more good for us than what Emerson and Fav have been doing..

on the other hand what HAS emerson truly done for us since he's been here? Do you really think he's done more than say a Cardacio or Flamini would have, had they been playing instead?

..and ultimately, it's not EMERSON's fault persay. He's trying his heart out for the shirt and I respect that. This is where the questioning of Carlo begins. and it goes back to zd's old sig "lack of courage/creativity" - the courage to play Flamini and Cardacio a little more rather than go for the 33 year old veteran just due to seniority. Hey, maybe show some creative flare and move Flamini to Left Back for cover rather than use Favalli! maybe that would pay off! Carlo is set in his ways. so that's why he's criticized. He stubbornly will play players that hurt us more than help us, rather than trying something new that could work. How else do you explain the christmas tree against teams like lecce?

Well, you cuold say SOMETHING like that for the Atalanta and Siena games. Weak forwards, weak Kaka/Dinho, incredible Rino and Emerson. Weird games, but those are the facts.

The way I see it, Kaka' is playing a bit wider than usual, with Seedorf alternating between Ronaldinho and Kaka' reshuffling that trident behind the striker when in possession.

Kaka' off-forum can be a match winner for Milan ? yes.

But I don't think he is off-form. Rather he is one of the two, either the new tactical setup upfront derives him of doing the most damage "with more balls under his feet" and/or the operation that he did on his knees is setting him back from doing his bold dashes right through the defenses of the opposing team .

If there is a player on this current team that is truly untouchable, it is Kaka' !

I was not talking about last night.


Well... I think he was not, that's where it comes from... I'm talking about his season so far not this game. We disagree on what's fundamental here (if you also were talking about Kaka's display as a whole this season) so there's no need to reply to the rest of your post.

If you were talking about this game then I agree with you.

Ok I just saw this several times ... And its just like the old Sheva knocking in the most amazing of goals (against Lazio ) .. I hope he keeps this form up, Milan needs what he has to offer !!

@vnata:

See man, you've got some points there...but I'm just a little confused about this argument of yours..



See theoretically, an offensive player can never lose you a match, only win matches for you. Similarly for a defensive player, he can never win you matches, just stop you from not losing. Of course with exceptions.

Emerson and Favalli are people who do the dirty work, and most of what they do go unnoticed. Personally, I'm against Favalli playing as a LB, I don't think he has the legs. I agree with whoever said Flamini is better off as LB.


I think mine and Tennie's gripe is how players are not measure relative to their merits. For instance, why is Favalli who we all agree is a third choice squad player expected to turn in the performance of a Nesta or a Roberto Carlos and if he doesn't he is reviled and booed.

The same thing with Emerson. He is third choice too, behind Rino and Ambro. As for Cardaccio and Darmian, it's the Italian tradition. Unless teams are stuck for players, you'll rarely see youngsters given much of a run about. In the EPL it makes sense, since it's an athletic game and the only way you learn to take the knocks and deal with the speed is by playing. But in Serie A, which is a tactical thing, it's all about training.

I don't consider Darmian truth be told, as a first XI. He was just considered good enough to train with the big boys and learn what he can from there. Perhaps as a mental preparation as well. Let's not forget that the boy does play with the primavera still. So he's not kicking his heels rusting away.


I just have another general question. If we purchased Viudez, and made him a primavera player, would that free us our Non-EU spot??

First of all I just want to say vnata, GREAT post. Top class there.


I appreciate you admitting this. Even if I don't agree with some of you views on things, I respect you oppinions, and I definately respect what you've said here. Even though you still stand by what you believe in you admit that Carlo is not the perfect coach and that his flaws are effeciting us negatively.

And I do agree with you also that removing Carlo now would not be the answer, if Galliani wants to change coach then he should have thought of that before the start of the season because changing coach now imo would do more harm then good.

And I personally can only speak for myself but I've witnessed Milan go through tougher times then this, but with the squad Carlo has you'de expect far better then what we're getting and sometimes you can see that the play is just lacking something and it's just an adjustment or 2 away yet Carlo refuses to make those slight adjustments because he likes to stay in his comfort zone.

As for cursing this and that player. I think should Carlo use such players as Favalli and Emerson for what they are, back up to the back ups and not let them jeopardise a younger talented players' carreer then I don't think anyone on here would have a problem with the Favallis and Emersons of the team, it's not like we're paying their wages out of our pockets.


I'm not saying he's beyond criticsm Tennie, try to understand where some of us are coming from. I said myself that he's not playing well and not even reahing half of his potential best atm. But let's give the guy a break, we can't just crucify him for having a dip in form, to me that's very unfair. What he has done in the past to me also factors into things. What had Emerson done for us in the past? Perhaps injured one of our own while playing for Roma or Juve because he's always been a dirty play that would rather go for the legs then the ball.

If he was one of our long serving players that everyone should be thankful for like Paolo then I would have no problem with him, even if he get's a game or 2 more then he deserves (don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Paolo shouldn't play but I used him as an example of a player that has served the club for so many years and would have been happy to sink with the club even when he was the world's best defender in his prime, just putting this out there incase dst decides to come at me with the forks and fire) Emerson on the other hand is nothing but a mercenary and a teacher's [et he was hated at Roma and Juve for being Capello's favourite and now he's hated at Milan for being Carlo's favourite.

And I think it's highly unfair to think that Kaka should be criticised for dipping in form and not winning us games like he used to do (even though he's won us a couple this season already even when not at his best) yet Emerson should be defended for costing us matches and playing the way he plays. I'm sorry but I don't understand how you think that's fair


Yes Kaka has had some indifferent gaes this season, but that's only what we see. But so have most of our other players, Kaka only get's the brunt of it because everyone expects him to do the crucial things when all the others around him (save for a few) are slacking. And maybe it's still a confidence issue for him, maybe sometimes he chooses to make a pass rather then blaze through the defence like he used to because he's sub-conciously thinking that the next hit to his knee that he gets could end up ending his carreer.

I compared Carlo to Kaka because both have been lacking. Kaka is not playing as well and Carlo keeps making tactical decisions that cost us matches. Yet Kaka's dip in form is not winning us as much matches so people start slinging mud at him for not being at his super human best and Carlo makes these decisions that cost us matches yet people still find it in them to defend him. And we might all be yelling about Emerson but ultimately it is Carlo's decision to play him, no one else's and if your coach asks you to play, you play.


Exactly!!!!!

And here I was slipping through the pages the latest issue of the 'Han Magazine'. Top post.

I'm not talking about not playing well. That is only logical, I'm not insane to expect someone to do great every week. What I'm talking about is lack of effort... and I'm not saying he's always like that but in my view he has been and for that he deserves some criticism.

Interesting points raised... top post han!

btw - whats with all this forum hatred?
Differing views make up a forum not so?
...So what the hell - so you disagree with someone else's opinion; either respond smartly or don't reply atal!
Everyone isn't going to have the same feelings towards everything.

*shame*

EXACTLY.



Well, han, if the Pirlo's of the world are crucified, so should the Kaka's be. I think it's brutally unfair to string up Pirlo who has been just as important for getting hte ball forward for Kaka to win all those games 2 years ago while giving Kaka 'let's give the guy a break' a free ride because his form has been poor. I don't think Kaka should get a free ride because I don't think he or anyone else is above criticism.

As for myself and the above stuff, I know I've been awfully short-tempered recently. This is because of my sky-high frustration with what I see as the complete lack of parity in analysis on the board. It's almost as if this place has become kakafan.com, not milanfan.com, whereby it's just fine to heap abuse on everything to do with Milan except 3 brazilians who are above criticism. I just don't think it's fair and I'm tired of fighting what seems to be an uphill battle - especially when there's sometimes ridicule for daring to say something nice about A Player Who Is Not Brazilian. I'm just beyond the capacity of being diplomatic. If boardmembers think it's okay to attack an Andrea Pirlo then I'm not going to hold back in attacking a Kaka.

I am also very tired of what I perceive as an anti-Italian bias on this board. None of the Italians connected with Milan seem to measure up.

First of all, I personally don't think Favalli and Emerson can be put in the same context. The former has had some great games this season while the latter's career is in my opinion finished. But I agree with your logic I said so myself earlier.

As for Italy and youngsters... no one expects Darmian to be fielded in Serie A (even if it was a youngster, namely Paloschi, who saved the day in a certain game last season) but Coppa Italia!?!? Come on...
And while training is indeed more beneficial to the young players in Italy due to the nature of the game compared to other leagues that does not mean anyone has become what he is from training. It's on the field where you apply what you have learned and it's right there where it matters.
Fiori did not have a great career despite his immense talent because he was scared. He was not made to be a professional.
Nesta on his first game messed up with the offside trap twice and his team conceded both times. But he is the player he is today exactly because he was not benched after that! He played the next game and the one after that and so on... and he became captain at 21!
Of course Lazio back when he made his debut were not challenging for the Scudetto but I never said Darmian or anyone else should get the same chances as he did... the least I expect though is to see a young player who is considered a good talent (if not then why is he still here?) feature in a Coppa Italia game ahead of a 36 year old who we might need to recruit 4 days later...

If he's not fielded in games like this one then when is he going to be fielded? If there's no room for him then we should loan him out, like we did with Paloschi, it's that simple and it's beneficial to everyone. And if it was all about training Paloschi would not have gone either!

Agreed with everything you said. great post!



I thought you were specifically talking about this game.



First of all, Emerson is doing stupid things. he's not just "not good enough". he's bad and for that reason, he should sit on the bench because he is directly affecting our games. Favalli is not doing stupid things, he was just not good enough against those quick players.

And wait, are you saying because Kaka failed to win us the game, he is as much guilty as Emo and Favalli who lost us the game??

And after all I said in the other thread, all of our problems start with Carlo as he is the one who decides Emo should play or not. he decides Favalli should play against such fast players or not. that's why I said Carlo is the only one I will truly criticize. Favalli as a member of this team cannot refuse to play when Carlo asks him to. the same for Emo.

@ jack

When you pointed that out, I realized my logic sounded a little disjointed, because it wasn't explained clearly enough. I wasn't referring to their roles on the field as attackers and defenders. I know that kaka gets the goals/assists, and favs and Emo make the tackles and win the 50/50s. What i was talking about was their effectiveness in playing their positions.
- Kaka never costs us a game because: he's wasting chance after chance..turning the ball over constantly..making poor passes..not running..etc. Even on off-form kaka, who may dive more than he should, will still provide telling ball after telling ball, spread play decently enough, and still create the odd chance all on his own. An off-form kaka to us really means that the guy isn't showing the razor edge finishing skills he showed in 07, or hitting his long curling strike sweetly..but in terms of level of play it is still very high.

All in all, Kaka does his job well. When he doesn't go above and beyond his duty and scores multitudes, we say he's off form, but hey even when off form he's still untouchable in the lineup. We can't expect him to take on 4 defenders running coast to coast and finishing between the legs of the keeper every game..he always does his job for the team.

Emerson and Favalli on the other hand you cannot say the same for! They consistently do not perform their jobs as defenders at a high level. Every game Emerson comes into he falls all over the place, makes slopply tackles - doesn't turn in classy displays. Same with Favalli, he's just there, never a rock in defense. The thinking goes: If Fav makes a nice play we'll hand it to him, but if he messes up it's no surprise. That's not the thinking I want to have about a player in this side. I would like to have confidence in them, not just be unsurprised when they mess the match up. every time Emo comes on, half the forum knows something bad is going to happen, and more than half the time their right! Against Lecce Emo made a terrible, unnecessary tackle that lead to them equalizing. Favalli gives away more penalties than anyone else on our team. and when I said that they DIRECTLY COST us this Lazio match, it's true! Emerson red card, Favalli gave away the game tying penalty. They literally accounted for the loss.

What I was trying to say is that Kaka' plays the game at a certain level. Form is temp, class is permanent - we all know the adage. So even when kaka is playing, and he's slightly off-form, really he's still one wonder strike away from storming right back into form..Whether his form dips or not, he's still a match winning player. I'm not going to complain about him, and try and blame him for the teams losses or troubles because even on his off days we still need him out there if we want to win the match. That's what I meant by saying kaka wins matches. the same cannot be said for EMo, Fav, etc. Inherent to their position, the only way they would WIN us matches is by defending well. Something they somewhat consistently don't do! They hurt us with their performances at their position for often than they help us..So this is what i meant when i said KAka never COSTS us a match, while Emo and Fav do - even though one is an attacker and the others are defenders. It's their PERFORMANCES at their position im talking about, not just the nature of the position they play.

so this begs the next question: if they can't be expected to turn in good performances..then why exactly is Carlo playing them!? that's a million dollar question! If us fans should NOT expect our players to play at a high level, then what are we supposed to do? Emo and FAv have played consistently mediocre, while Flamini, Antonini just sit and watch, and don't learn. It was me who said flamini should play LB instead of Fav. Flamini is a better player than Emo and Fav! why the heck isn't he in front of them in the pecking order? Lots of quesions for Carlo...

I completely understand where you and tennie are coming from, about judging a player based on merits, and for some reason leaving Kaka alone when it comes to criticism. Kaka is not above criticism, but it'd be ludicrous to want him benched. So we live with his dip in form, because he's still better than 99% of the world. But Emerson, Fav, etc. are not in that class. So the criticism that is levied against them comes from the fact that they are playing, when they really shouldn't be! them off-form is a negative factor - they can't do their job, an off-form kaka still does his job. you ask, why on earth ARE we expecting Emerson and Favalli to turn in top class performances at their age? this is a great question that we should be posing to carlo. Why is he even playing them if we can't expect top class performances out of them? you said it urself, Emerson is 3rd choice. wait, really? while flamini, antonini who we all can see have ability sit FOURTH on the pecking order? AND, in any case, if the reasoning is that "oh we don't care about the coppa italia", then why play a useless Fav when we could see the unknown quantity that is Darmian and perhaps unearth a gem! c'mon carlo. Show some "courage/creativity". (back to the zd sig)

btw - thanks han, for saying what i was trying to say more clearly than i could. haha.

I don't get one thing:

Carlo fielded his best players available against Lazio [and didn't give players who are not going to play in any Serie A/UEFA Cup game a chance], and when we lost, he said "we didn't care that much about the Coppa Italia"

Hypocrisy at its best...

Exactly. Actions speak louder than words.

seriously..and like i said before, if "we don't care" then play Darmian and Viudez and Cardacio! lets not risk injury to our big guns for a game that we apparently "dont care about".

this team is aggravating to watch right now...cuz they should be so much better.

PS - (random) i really miss CHampions League. hearing that anthem and watching the camera pan over our team lined up used to give me chills..

I did find it rather strange that he played such a strong side against Lazio. I think it will prove costly against Catania, as many of them will be tired having played 120 minutes, nearly 60 of which were with 10-men.

Actually, vnata, right now I don't think kaka has been doing his job, as you put it in your post above. And I'm still stunned that people refuse to criticize a player who (to quote you) wastes chance after chance, turns the ball over constantly, makes poor pases, and doesn't run. If it were any other player, that player would be castigated. Repeatedly. And blamed for losing the team matches. (ie, look at what people did to Pirlo in another thread). This is where I see the hypocricy and the bias. And this is why I seriously wonder if this board is more of a kakafan.com sort of place than a milanfan.com sort of place.

the thing is..what kind of expectations of kaka do we have? we expect him to score/assist every goal? that is what he's HAD to do in the absense of a good forward to partner. But to EXPECT that out of him game in game out is unrealistic. WHen Cristiano has a bad day in Manchester usually Rooney and TEvez and Berbatov and the rest let those off days go un-noticed. But here, when kaka is off, the team doesn't work! that's not kaka's fault, that's the fault of the structure of the team.

In reality we need him to play in the midfield. Carlo playing him up front away from the midfield doesn't allow him to do get the touches he needs to influence the game. instead he's waiting for service, rather than CREATING service.

Kaka has had to score and assist every goal we score..but that shouldn't be our expectation of him. We've just become accustomed to it, but it's unfair to expect it

On the flipside, we should expect our DM and CBs to not REPEATEDLY put our team at a disadvantage with pks and red cards, and then criticize kaka for not scoring and assisting despite the disadvantage that the rest of the team imposes.

this is a debate i think we'll never agree on unfortunately. I think Kaka is untouchable to this team (as is Pirlo, Rino/Ambro, Seedorf when he tries, Nesta, etc). WIthout him we wouln't have won CL. Fav and Emo are not. I don't see wrong in wanting them replaced, but not wanting kaka replaced. It's dealing with our reality. Its unrealistic to bench kaka, who else would do his job equally. Emerson and Favalli meanwhile play instead of players with equal ability and more potential. so what the solution..bench kaka? no.

I do NOT think kaka is above criticism. It PAINS me to see him diving and I conceded to my Liverpool fan friend that kaka has fallen out of the top 4 in the world recently. But that's not HIS fault. It's the play of our team, that has caused him to have to take on this huge burden of deciding EVERY GAME even on games when we play horribly. The signs for the underperformance of the team have been lurking for a while now. Kaka kept us above water, and now, FINALLY, when the man comes back down to earth, the rest of the squad is exposed. and that's what we are seeing. Remember the CL round of 16 in 2007? We beat Celtic 1-0 over two legs. goal scorer in x-tra time of the 2nd leg? Kaka. I mean celtic is not a bad side, but not a side of the quality and prestige of ours. It was all on Kaka to decide that match, and he eventually did. Now he's in a little rut, can't necessarily make those wonder goal runs..and our team suffers. I see him doing his job in spread play, running, and linking up with the forwards..anything else he does is going above and beyond doing his job. we can't expect 07-like performances out of him consistently, cuz that was out of this world. Emo and Fav on the other hand, im not asking for world class performances, i'm just asking them not to directly lose matches for us..

Just like u see my/our expectations of Fav and Emo as unrealistic. I think that perhaps the expectations on kaka should be a little more realistic as well. It's not KAKA's fault for his dip in form, its the average way we've been playing for a while/the injury problems that he has from being overworked that has lead to him dealing with mental/phsyical burdens, and thinks he has to change the ways he plays. His moral has been affected. He didn't do it to himself. The difference remains is the fact that Emo and Fav are replaceable. Kaka is not. So wanting them replaced is dealing with our reality for face value, not being overly partisan..

DP -

I agree that our views are pretty far apart on this one.

From reading your above post, one might almost gather that Kaka is the only capable player on the team, the only one who can decide matches for Milan and that IT ALL RESTS ON HIS SHOULDERS. I think Kaka is a very good player, probably the best one on the team, but that there are other equally important players on the team. For example, it wasn't Kaka who scored 2 against Liverpool in the CL final (that was Pippo). Nor was it Kaka who was named MOM for the May MU CL Semi (that was Ambrosini who only Kurt and I seem to rate). He's not the only decent player on the team.

I think that if people are going to tear Andrea Pirlo or Pippo Inzaghi or Pato or Shevchenko apart, then they should also be totally free to apply the same standard to Kaka. Because, honestly, the way I see it is that if Kaka can't be blamed for playing poorly, then neither can anyone else. To do otherwise (and sorry if this sounds harsh but this is honestly how I see it) is being a hypocritical fanboy. And honestly, if the majority of people on this board think Kaka is never to blame for playing like s***, then, well, fair play to you all - everyone's welcome to his or her opinion. But a board where Kaka is never to blame and EVERYONE ELSE ALWAYS IS is not the sort of place for me.

Clearly there's only two sane members on this forum them!

But in all seriousness, I do agree with Tennie on one of her points. Some players seem to get more excuses than others. With Kaka', it seems that because he is arguably our best player, when he performs badly it's because he has no help from anyone. With Pato (sorry, zd) it's because he never gets a chance - not that he's taken any chances very well this season.

Agreed, but I think that was only one game that this happened, sure we expect him to do his best in every game. And I remember both yourself and I myself commenting on Kaka's indifferent performance in this particular game.

And I agree that he should be criticised, but it's not like he does this every week like for example Seedorf who picks and chooses the games he decides are important enough for him to do his best in.

I'm not saying Kaka is above criticism, but to criticise him for dropping in performance after the past 2 seasons were he has been carrying the team is more then harsh, especially when people start comparing his bad performances to what Emerson is.


If you look back a at my posts a couple of days ago, you would see that I personally hold Pirlo in as much high regard as Kaka, and that even though he's not been at his best since the WC, he's still an untouchable player in my eyes and that people should not suddenly throw the book at him because he's trying to recover from injury and being unable to play at his best. Yes we can comment on how he's been of the pace for 2 years now, just like I said that Kaka has not been himself this season but to criticise either of these players and suddenly turn our backs on them is completely unfair. These guys have been over played and over burdened by the club, it's like Newton's law. If the spring is over extended then it's basically ruined. This is what we've done to Kaka and Pirlo, they've been over used and burned out now we're seeing the consequences. And to see people comparing these guys to Emerson just p!sses me off to no end. This guy has done absolutely nothing for except cost us matches. To see him coming onto the pitch, jog around and foul opposing players in dangerous areas, I just keep thinking to myself how could this good for nothing ****** be at a club like Milan, and not only that playing games as a starter ahead of players who are younger and far better then him. This just baffles me to no end.

@ Jack Yes Favalli and Emerson are third choice, like I said in my previous post they are supposed to be here as back ups for the back ups. And no one expects them to play like Nesta or Gattuso. But again, why are they being treated as first choices by the coach? This is the thing that us on the other hand are 'griping' about. Why does Emerson come onto the field when Flamini is on the bench??? This is all on the coaches' head. He decides to pick the old heads for his own piece of mind and usually it bites us in the @ss. This is what I am griping about Jack

Welcome to the club, mate.

Ambrosini is a good player, but he shouldn't be starting, and nor should he be our next captain. Maldini annoyed me by announcing the next captain, it isn't his decision, it is Carlo's.

The reason he is not getting rated at the moment, and I am one of these people, is because he's being used in a role that he is not effective in. He's a DM, yet is being asked to get forward when he's played with Pirlo and Gattuso. As such, he looks rubbish because a defensive player is being asked to attack and doesn't have the necessary skills.

Regarding Kaká, he is not immune from criticism. But his past efforts probably give him more leeway than other players. Pirlo performed badly last year, and has continued this year, so fans' patience may be running out. Kaká carried us for most of last year, while everyone else around him was underperforming.

precisely.

this is my last tid bit on this topic.

the main reason I took up kaka's side so vigorously in this debate is because we are comparing kaka's struggles to emerson's. And they simply are not on the same plane to try and compare. Kaka has been our flag bearer, match winner, face of the club, and that's not fanboy to say, all it requires is to be awake and watching when milan has played these last few seasons..it's logical that when he suffers we suffer. But Emerson on the other hand was a washed up player, and a typical Berlu 'Grande Brazilian Milan' signing that hasn't necessarily done ANYTHING to justify playing ahead of some of the players he plays ahead of. (i will go as far to say that Ronaldo 99 also falls into this category of signing old fart Brazilians for the sake of romance.)

i don't see anything fanboyish about being more lenient to a player in kaka who has excelled for us for years now, and cutting him some slack now that he's finally struggling a TAD bit. Emerson is simply not in that boat. He should be a fringe squad player, not prominently figuring. So kaka must play, and if he struggles we have to live with it. You live by overly depending on him, you die by overly depending on him..Emerson on the other hand hasn't helped us all that much, and only hurt us when we DO play him. To say that a player like say Emerson is equally important to us as kaka, and therefore criticism towards the two should be equal, would be to completely ignore what the former has done for us for the last 3-4 years.

They are on separate tolerance curves. And I in NO way include Maldini, Pippo, Pirlo, Ambro, Rino, Sandro in this grouping with Emo and Fav. All of those aforementioned players also have earned their place in the team, and their playing time when the get it. I will live with their struggles, even if I don't necessarily agree if they're starting on a given day..Emo and Fav haven't earned their playing time and superiority over Flamini, Antonini, Darmian on merit. They've earned it on seniority..and i don't necessarily agree with that criteria.

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I'm going to disagree that Emerson is a waste of space. Yes, he's made some dreadful errors. But so have other players. In some games, Emerson has arguably been the best midfielder on the pitch - including Kaka and Ronaldinho. He was the only midfielder not to embarrass himself at Palermo, for example. Yet he's not given credit for that. Neither is Favalli given credit for the good games he plays - Siena, Chievo, Lecce games, for example. Sure, they're slammed from here to the moon when they make mistakes, but they're never praised when they're actually pretty good. This to me is a corollary of the Never Blame Kaka theorem.

I understand what you guys (han and vnata today) are trying to say about Kaka; I don't agree with you but I understand what you mean. Personally, I still think it verges on blind adoration (the fact that there are grudging admissions that maybe Kaka is struggling are point in fact when people went on at length about how bad Pirlo's been) that I just don't think is warranted.

I also have yet to see any counterargument to my position that there's an anti-Italian bias here.

One note to Astafjevs: the issue of captaincy is based on seniority at Milan, not on who the coach picks. Maldini didn't do anything out of context by commenting that Ambrosini will be captain when he, Maldini, retires. As for fans' patience, at least those who actually go to games, there's been criticism of Pirlo, yes. But there's been just as much criticism of Kaka, if not more. (This based on friends of mine who live in Milan and who have season tickets). These fans also are in the mutant camp with Kurt and me: they adore Ambrosini.

I'm fully aware that it's based on seniority. That's how it generally works in Italy, both at club level and the national side. My point is that he should have left it up to Carlo as he may have a different idea of seniority. While Ambrosini has been at the club longer, Gattuso has made more appearances for example.

I'm a season ticket holder myself, so I'm aware of the opinion around the ground on match days, though obviously I can't say it's representative of the tifosi as a whole. The adoration for Ambrosini is mainly based on the effort and commitment he has shown to the club, especially during the few years where he was a bench player, not for his performances.

You're a season ticket holder? That's awesome!

Can you do me a favour asta and throw a pie at Mourinho's face?? Puhleeze?

We got a season ticket holder among us!!! Bring out the red carpets, prepare the cannons, slaughter the virgins, Mike we want V3!

Just as long as you don't sacrifice innocent Fishdolls, dst.