Interesting points raised... top post han!

btw - whats with all this forum hatred?
Differing views make up a forum not so?
...So what the hell - so you disagree with someone else's opinion; either respond smartly or don't reply atal!
Everyone isn't going to have the same feelings towards everything.

*shame* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sleep.gif)

EXACTLY.



Well, han, if the Pirlo's of the world are crucified, so should the Kaka's be. I think it's brutally unfair to string up Pirlo who has been just as important for getting hte ball forward for Kaka to win all those games 2 years ago while giving Kaka 'let's give the guy a break' a free ride because his form has been poor. I don't think Kaka should get a free ride because I don't think he or anyone else is above criticism.

As for myself and the above stuff, I know I've been awfully short-tempered recently. This is because of my sky-high frustration with what I see as the complete lack of parity in analysis on the board. It's almost as if this place has become kakafan.com, not milanfan.com, whereby it's just fine to heap abuse on everything to do with Milan except 3 brazilians who are above criticism. I just don't think it's fair and I'm tired of fighting what seems to be an uphill battle - especially when there's sometimes ridicule for daring to say something nice about A Player Who Is Not Brazilian. I'm just beyond the capacity of being diplomatic. If boardmembers think it's okay to attack an Andrea Pirlo then I'm not going to hold back in attacking a Kaka.

I am also very tired of what I perceive as an anti-Italian bias on this board. None of the Italians connected with Milan seem to measure up.

First of all, I personally don't think Favalli and Emerson can be put in the same context. The former has had some great games this season while the latter's career is in my opinion finished. But I agree with your logic I said so myself earlier.

As for Italy and youngsters... no one expects Darmian to be fielded in Serie A (even if it was a youngster, namely Paloschi, who saved the day in a certain game last season) but Coppa Italia!?!? Come on...
And while training is indeed more beneficial to the young players in Italy due to the nature of the game compared to other leagues that does not mean anyone has become what he is from training. It's on the field where you apply what you have learned and it's right there where it matters.
Fiori did not have a great career despite his immense talent because he was scared. He was not made to be a professional.
Nesta on his first game messed up with the offside trap twice and his team conceded both times. But he is the player he is today exactly because he was not benched after that! He played the next game and the one after that and so on... and he became captain at 21!
Of course Lazio back when he made his debut were not challenging for the Scudetto but I never said Darmian or anyone else should get the same chances as he did... the least I expect though is to see a young player who is considered a good talent (if not then why is he still here?) feature in a Coppa Italia game ahead of a 36 year old who we might need to recruit 4 days later...

If he's not fielded in games like this one then when is he going to be fielded? If there's no room for him then we should loan him out, like we did with Paloschi, it's that simple and it's beneficial to everyone. And if it was all about training Paloschi would not have gone either! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Agreed with everything you said. great post!



I thought you were specifically talking about this game.



First of all, Emerson is doing stupid things. he's not just "not good enough". he's bad and for that reason, he should sit on the bench because he is directly affecting our games. Favalli is not doing stupid things, he was just not good enough against those quick players.

And wait, are you saying because Kaka failed to win us the game, he is as much guilty as Emo and Favalli who lost us the game??

And after all I said in the other thread, all of our problems start with Carlo as he is the one who decides Emo should play or not. he decides Favalli should play against such fast players or not. that's why I said Carlo is the only one I will truly criticize. Favalli as a member of this team cannot refuse to play when Carlo asks him to. the same for Emo.

@ jack

When you pointed that out, I realized my logic sounded a little disjointed, because it wasn't explained clearly enough. I wasn't referring to their roles on the field as attackers and defenders. I know that kaka gets the goals/assists, and favs and Emo make the tackles and win the 50/50s. What i was talking about was their effectiveness in playing their positions.
- Kaka never costs us a game because: he's wasting chance after chance..turning the ball over constantly..making poor passes..not running..etc. Even on off-form kaka, who may dive more than he should, will still provide telling ball after telling ball, spread play decently enough, and still create the odd chance all on his own. An off-form kaka to us really means that the guy isn't showing the razor edge finishing skills he showed in 07, or hitting his long curling strike sweetly..but in terms of level of play it is still very high.

All in all, Kaka does his job well. When he doesn't go above and beyond his duty and scores multitudes, we say he's off form, but hey even when off form he's still untouchable in the lineup. We can't expect him to take on 4 defenders running coast to coast and finishing between the legs of the keeper every game..he always does his job for the team.

Emerson and Favalli on the other hand you cannot say the same for! They consistently do not perform their jobs as defenders at a high level. Every game Emerson comes into he falls all over the place, makes slopply tackles - doesn't turn in classy displays. Same with Favalli, he's just there, never a rock in defense. The thinking goes: If Fav makes a nice play we'll hand it to him, but if he messes up it's no surprise. That's not the thinking I want to have about a player in this side. I would like to have confidence in them, not just be unsurprised when they mess the match up. every time Emo comes on, half the forum knows something bad is going to happen, and more than half the time their right! Against Lecce Emo made a terrible, unnecessary tackle that lead to them equalizing. Favalli gives away more penalties than anyone else on our team. and when I said that they DIRECTLY COST us this Lazio match, it's true! Emerson red card, Favalli gave away the game tying penalty. They literally accounted for the loss.

What I was trying to say is that Kaka' plays the game at a certain level. Form is temp, class is permanent - we all know the adage. So even when kaka is playing, and he's slightly off-form, really he's still one wonder strike away from storming right back into form..Whether his form dips or not, he's still a match winning player. I'm not going to complain about him, and try and blame him for the teams losses or troubles because even on his off days we still need him out there if we want to win the match. That's what I meant by saying kaka wins matches. the same cannot be said for EMo, Fav, etc. Inherent to their position, the only way they would WIN us matches is by defending well. Something they somewhat consistently don't do! They hurt us with their performances at their position for often than they help us..So this is what i meant when i said KAka never COSTS us a match, while Emo and Fav do - even though one is an attacker and the others are defenders. It's their PERFORMANCES at their position im talking about, not just the nature of the position they play.

so this begs the next question: if they can't be expected to turn in good performances..then why exactly is Carlo playing them!? that's a million dollar question! If us fans should NOT expect our players to play at a high level, then what are we supposed to do? Emo and FAv have played consistently mediocre, while Flamini, Antonini just sit and watch, and don't learn. It was me who said flamini should play LB instead of Fav. Flamini is a better player than Emo and Fav! why the heck isn't he in front of them in the pecking order? Lots of quesions for Carlo...

I completely understand where you and tennie are coming from, about judging a player based on merits, and for some reason leaving Kaka alone when it comes to criticism. Kaka is not above criticism, but it'd be ludicrous to want him benched. So we live with his dip in form, because he's still better than 99% of the world. But Emerson, Fav, etc. are not in that class. So the criticism that is levied against them comes from the fact that they are playing, when they really shouldn't be! them off-form is a negative factor - they can't do their job, an off-form kaka still does his job. you ask, why on earth ARE we expecting Emerson and Favalli to turn in top class performances at their age? this is a great question that we should be posing to carlo. Why is he even playing them if we can't expect top class performances out of them? you said it urself, Emerson is 3rd choice. wait, really? while flamini, antonini who we all can see have ability sit FOURTH on the pecking order? AND, in any case, if the reasoning is that "oh we don't care about the coppa italia", then why play a useless Fav when we could see the unknown quantity that is Darmian and perhaps unearth a gem! c'mon carlo. Show some "courage/creativity". (back to the zd sig)

btw - thanks han, for saying what i was trying to say more clearly than i could. haha. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

This post has been edited by vnata001: Dec 5 2008, 08:04 PM

I don't get one thing:

Carlo fielded his best players available against Lazio [and didn't give players who are not going to play in any Serie A/UEFA Cup game a chance], and when we lost, he said "we didn't care that much about the Coppa Italia" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

Hypocrisy at its best...

Exactly. Actions speak louder than words.

seriously..and like i said before, if "we don't care" then play Darmian and Viudez and Cardacio! lets not risk injury to our big guns for a game that we apparently "dont care about".

this team is aggravating to watch right now...cuz they should be so much better.

PS - (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cry.gif) (random) i really miss CHampions League. hearing that anthem and watching the camera pan over our team lined up used to give me chills.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smoke.gif)

I did find it rather strange that he played such a strong side against Lazio. I think it will prove costly against Catania, as many of them will be tired having played 120 minutes, nearly 60 of which were with 10-men.

Actually, vnata, right now I don't think kaka has been doing his job, as you put it in your post above. And I'm still stunned that people refuse to criticize a player who (to quote you) wastes chance after chance, turns the ball over constantly, makes poor pases, and doesn't run. If it were any other player, that player would be castigated. Repeatedly. And blamed for losing the team matches. (ie, look at what people did to Pirlo in another thread). This is where I see the hypocricy and the bias. And this is why I seriously wonder if this board is more of a kakafan.com sort of place than a milanfan.com sort of place.

the thing is..what kind of expectations of kaka do we have? we expect him to score/assist every goal? that is what he's HAD to do in the absense of a good forward to partner. But to EXPECT that out of him game in game out is unrealistic. WHen Cristiano has a bad day in Manchester usually Rooney and TEvez and Berbatov and the rest let those off days go un-noticed. But here, when kaka is off, the team doesn't work! that's not kaka's fault, that's the fault of the structure of the team.

In reality we need him to play in the midfield. Carlo playing him up front away from the midfield doesn't allow him to do get the touches he needs to influence the game. instead he's waiting for service, rather than CREATING service.

Kaka has had to score and assist every goal we score..but that shouldn't be our expectation of him. We've just become accustomed to it, but it's unfair to expect it

On the flipside, we should expect our DM and CBs to not REPEATEDLY put our team at a disadvantage with pks and red cards, and then criticize kaka for not scoring and assisting despite the disadvantage that the rest of the team imposes.

this is a debate i think we'll never agree on unfortunately. I think Kaka is untouchable to this team (as is Pirlo, Rino/Ambro, Seedorf when he tries, Nesta, etc). WIthout him we wouln't have won CL. Fav and Emo are not. I don't see wrong in wanting them replaced, but not wanting kaka replaced. It's dealing with our reality. Its unrealistic to bench kaka, who else would do his job equally. Emerson and Favalli meanwhile play instead of players with equal ability and more potential. so what the solution..bench kaka? no.

I do NOT think kaka is above criticism. It PAINS me to see him diving and I conceded to my Liverpool fan friend that kaka has fallen out of the top 4 in the world recently. But that's not HIS fault. It's the play of our team, that has caused him to have to take on this huge burden of deciding EVERY GAME even on games when we play horribly. The signs for the underperformance of the team have been lurking for a while now. Kaka kept us above water, and now, FINALLY, when the man comes back down to earth, the rest of the squad is exposed. and that's what we are seeing. Remember the CL round of 16 in 2007? We beat Celtic 1-0 over two legs. goal scorer in x-tra time of the 2nd leg? Kaka. I mean celtic is not a bad side, but not a side of the quality and prestige of ours. It was all on Kaka to decide that match, and he eventually did. Now he's in a little rut, can't necessarily make those wonder goal runs..and our team suffers. I see him doing his job in spread play, running, and linking up with the forwards..anything else he does is going above and beyond doing his job. we can't expect 07-like performances out of him consistently, cuz that was out of this world. Emo and Fav on the other hand, im not asking for world class performances, i'm just asking them not to directly lose matches for us..

Just like u see my/our expectations of Fav and Emo as unrealistic. I think that perhaps the expectations on kaka should be a little more realistic as well. It's not KAKA's fault for his dip in form, its the average way we've been playing for a while/the injury problems that he has from being overworked that has lead to him dealing with mental/phsyical burdens, and thinks he has to change the ways he plays. His moral has been affected. He didn't do it to himself. The difference remains is the fact that Emo and Fav are replaceable. Kaka is not. So wanting them replaced is dealing with our reality for face value, not being overly partisan..

This post has been edited by vnata001: Dec 5 2008, 09:36 PM

DP - (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

This post has been edited by vnata001: Dec 5 2008, 09:32 PM

I agree that our views are pretty far apart on this one.

From reading your above post, one might almost gather that Kaka is the only capable player on the team, the only one who can decide matches for Milan and that IT ALL RESTS ON HIS SHOULDERS. I think Kaka is a very good player, probably the best one on the team, but that there are other equally important players on the team. For example, it wasn't Kaka who scored 2 against Liverpool in the CL final (that was Pippo). Nor was it Kaka who was named MOM for the May MU CL Semi (that was Ambrosini who only Kurt and I seem to rate). He's not the only decent player on the team.

I think that if people are going to tear Andrea Pirlo or Pippo Inzaghi or Pato or Shevchenko apart, then they should also be totally free to apply the same standard to Kaka. Because, honestly, the way I see it is that if Kaka can't be blamed for playing poorly, then neither can anyone else. To do otherwise (and sorry if this sounds harsh but this is honestly how I see it) is being a hypocritical fanboy. And honestly, if the majority of people on this board think Kaka is never to blame for playing like s***, then, well, fair play to you all - everyone's welcome to his or her opinion. But a board where Kaka is never to blame and EVERYONE ELSE ALWAYS IS is not the sort of place for me.

Clearly there's only two sane members on this forum them! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

But in all seriousness, I do agree with Tennie on one of her points. Some players seem to get more excuses than others. With Kaka', it seems that because he is arguably our best player, when he performs badly it's because he has no help from anyone. With Pato (sorry, zd) it's because he never gets a chance - not that he's taken any chances very well this season.

This post has been edited by kurtsimonw: Dec 5 2008, 09:50 PM