Gain ground? You think we actually have any chances whatsoever this season?

Why not? If Pippo goes and it somehow drastically changes our mentality? It's not that we're near season end?

Those are big "If's"...

No, I just don't want to finish below 10th place. The more Juve (and Roma) beat the teams around us, the more we can rise and finish at least top 9. Yes, that's really my pathetic ambition.

And Pippo, we've won 8 matches of 25 all season. We have 13 to go. At that rate we will win roughly 4 more if we're lucky. We need other teams to do us big favours because we just aren't good enough to do it ourselves, and Pippo just KEEPS CHANGING THE BLOODY DEFENCE!

This is not to say we're a top 9 team, I still assert we are top 3, but being disgustingly mismanaged.

Better than Napoli?

Nah, we are way off.

For starters, Napoli never needed to restructure as did Milan, so in essence have a stable squad that have been improving season after season.

While Milan/inter has been stripped of its core and attempting to find its footing.

It goes -> Juve, Roma, Napoli, then the various Lazio, Fiorentina, Milan, Inter etc. who can all fight for the two EL places. Sadly, we have been under-performing, as have Inter.

We beat Napoli already!

Nah, Sass are #1, everyone else is fighting for 2nd.

Sass?

And? Atalanta also beat us. Does it mean they're better than us?

Well, in his defense, the changes in the defensive part are mostly due to injuries. Sure, he searched for the right combination at season start. But now it's just a typical Milan injury-nightmare piling up.

Even when we had players at disposal he kept switching. Injuries, yes, but also Pippo's stubbornness.

No, it means Pippo's an ars*hole.

I don't think Pippo will be going anywhere until the end of the season, no matter what happens.


Does it really matter where we finish?

At the end of the day we're not going to get into Europe or the relegation zone. It's basically another wasted season. I really don't care if we finish 9th, 10th or 11th at this point, it's all the same thing


Agreed


Imo, yes. Look at Napoli's defence. Hamsik is the only player I'd take off them

Really? De Guzman, Inler, Jorginho, Callejon, Huguain, Mertens, Zuniga, Gabbiadini... I'd take them in a heartbeat.

According to Gazzetta, Inter will be sanctioned by UEFA for 7-8 million due to breaking FFP regulation, will have to perform a stringent mercato, and will be limited to a 21-player roster for all UEFA competitions. Only a warning for Roma.

Link

You seriously think Hamsik is the only Napoli player good enough to get in to the Milan side? Albiol, Inler, Jorginho, Mertens, Callejon, Hamsik and Higuain would walk in to this team without question.

There's a reason they're always high in the table and we're not anymore. People can keep blaming the coaches, but this is 3 coaches in a row - with essentially the same team - that get blamed. The only constant in that period is the player, because they're the problem.

I also forgot David Lopez.

What? Why exactly? Unbelievable.

Because they've been spending more than they can, or something along those lines.

Unbelievable.

Why?

Unbelievable how a regulation like the FFP keeps missing the target and hitting teams like Inter or Roma who really ain't the problem of modern day football.

True that.

Totally forgot about Mertens. Yeah, I'd take him too. But the others? No. I really do not believe that any of them would make a difference if they were to come into this toxic Milan environment.

If we want to make a leap we simply need better players than that, and this goes for Napoli and their ambitions as well

They do better than us because they're better coached. I really don't believe that on paper they are better than us.

Look at the coaches we had. The argument isn't valid simply because we do not have a bottom half of the table team but that is most likely where we'll be finishing. We do not have a team that should be getting beaten week in week out by mid level Serie A sides. But that's what's been happening for the past 3 seasons under those esteemed coaches.

Well, you're spinning it now. "Milans toxic environment" wouldn't be suitable for Ronaldo or Messi as well. But we were talking about Napoli and their team. Thing is, all of the player X-O mentioned would have a certain role in this Milan roster.

How many coaches will it take you to realise the squad is the problem?

There's a reason our team is, pretty much, entirely made up of players other teams don't want.

But hey, the last 4 coaches were rookie coaches. They don't see what we pro's see

The only way that we can be successful if things stay as they are in the coaching department is if those types of players were to come in. Only really top class players can turn things around for us in the current situation we're in.

And no. I would not take Zuniga, I wouldn't take Inler, Higuain, De Guzman or Giabbiadini.

Jorginho is interesting but in our current situation we'd turn him into another Poli. A player who was very promising that we've seen regress into an aimless runner.

Like I've said for while now, the only way we'll see any sort of real improvement at Milan is if we start by bringing in a proper coach. Leonardo, Allegri, Seedorf and now Pippo... Says it all. Only then should we even start to ponder the roster we have

How many times are we going to sell up half the squad and bring new players in? And no kurt, this is not the same team that failed under Leo, Allegri and Seedorf. There are massive changes throughout the roster and each time we fail.

And yes, we do have a toxic environment, there's no spinning anything.

From the management down to the coaching staff, and this has been something that's been festering for a while now. That being said, it doesn't look like there's going to be any changes in the management any time soon. But the coach will be changed in the summer, the only way we can know if kurt's musings for the last 3 seasons has been correct is if we bring in a proper coach/tactician and still fail. Until then you're guessing.

Saying the squad is bad for me is ridiculous. We're not competing in the EPL or La Liga. Serie A these days is basically rubbish. The only good team in the league is one who struggled to even come out of their CL group and their only competition for the title is the biggest choke-job team in history. Napoli? Please! They have a couple of good players, just like us, but they're no great shakes. There's no single player that I'd bite someone's hand off to take off them unlike with Juve or Roma for example. They have an absolute sh!tty defence that even we managed to look decent against in the current state we're in.

That's the easy way to say it, but 50% of the blame does fall on the coach. In Inzaghi's case, I'd say even more. We're not 11th place material, Kurt, not with these players. That is absolute.

Agreed.


I'd take Higuain and Gabbiadini for sure.


Well, that's what you call and educated guess.


Yes, a decent and experienced coach will help. But I think the players have been, to speak in metaphors, "worn" and "washed" out. I guarantee you (and this is my educated guess), a experienced coach like Spalletti or Donadoni would require a complete overhaul of the team. Only rookies like Pippo and Seedorf are fine with players Galliani throws in.

And so we made a circle. We need a good coach who would require better players. The opposite of this is happening. We sign inexperienced coaches who keep on hanging onto Montolivo and Bonera.


But the core remains the same. The midfield is pretty much the same Seedorf and Allegri had. Inzaghi has a wider roster at his disposal, but again, little quality and much quantity.

But the obvious truth is what Kurt said. For some effing reason almost 50% of our players were either unwanted by their previous clubs, in a feud with the team/coach or free and without any other option.


I think you're terribly underestimating Serie A and the teams we put up a fight against. And I'm not gonna slip into another long argument. Here is my bottom line:

When things obviously don't work and lead into a continuing disaster, usually there's multiple reasons behind it. Take our management, our coach, our team. I think all sections offer viable parts of explanations. Some of us like to put emphasis on one segment, I think it's the mixture that makes this situation so hard. I agreed long time ago that we need a change in the managerial department. Recently I also agreed that Inzaghi isn't up to it. But I cannot surpass my assessment on the team as well: simply put, it's a bad combination of players.



Why is saying "50% of the blame does fall on the coach" (or more in Inzaghi's case) any harder? By my book, you two are just turning sides of the same coin.

If Pippo had stuck with the Alex/Zapata defence (or any decent defence) instead of rotating every SINGLE match, and not played 90% of our players out of position, he wouldn't have the worst win record of the modern era.

Squad certainly has blame, but can you HONESTLY say this Milan squad, on paper, is the 11th best team in the worst Serie A since the mid-80s?

No. But then again, we won't end up 11th I think. We'll end up around 9 - 6 (or 5), which will be expected.

You say it's the worst Serie A. Agreed. But let's have some food for thought. Is this (or the previous 12/13 and 13/14), on paper, the worst Milan squad in the last 20 or 25 years?

Not Seedorf. He had ambitions, and one of the reasons he fell out with Galliani was his assessment that 50% of the roster wasn't suited for a team like Milan.



Any harder? When a team fails miserably like we are doing, 50% of the blame does always fall on the coach. In Inzaghi's case, as Danny stated, because his mistake are graver and more obvious. Simple.

I've never argued otherwise. But I was more arguing with han's opinion. If only Hamsik can get in to the Milan team from Napoli, surely that means he feels we have a much better team than the team in 3rd. There's no way we're comfortably the 3rd best team in Serie A.

When something keep going wrong, you look for consistencies in those things. The only constant in the team over the last 3 years or so is the payers. We've had different coaches, different formations, different lineups, etc. Fact is the squad just isn't very good. I'm not saying the coaches weren't to blame, of course they deserve some of the blame. I also agree that Pippo deserves more than previous coaches as we shouldn't be 11th.

Team in 2012:

Abbiati, Abate, Nesta, Mexes, Antonini, Ambrosini, Nocerino, Seedorf, Boateng, Robinho, Ibrahimovic

Nuff said?

2013 for the pedant:

Milan who beat Barca at San Siro:

Abbiati, Abate, Mexes, Zapata, Constant, Ambrosini, Montolivo, Muntari, Boateng, Pazzini, El Shaarawy

Milan today:

Lopez, Bonera, Alex, Bocchetti, Antonelli, Poli, Monto, Bona, Honda, Menez, Destro.

Nuff said?

I see anything but consistency here.

Last 3 years meaning 2013-2015. Look at the bolded players. They're still in the roster.

Are both all that much better than Destro and Menez or Cerci? Maybe Higuain. But put him in our team where we don't have any cohesion or link between the attack and midfield and he'd struggle to touch the ball during a game, let alone score regularly.


Spalletti or Donadoni would demand more of the management, but I'm certain that they would also demand much more from their players than what Inzaghi is doing. Saying it's okay to draw against Empoli or whichever mid-table Serie A team we face? FFS how much more regressive and defeatist can you get?

Allegri and Pippo were both prime examples of this mentality, accepting losing or going for the draw when we should clearly be aiming for much better. Seedorf was the only one who demanded more of his players and we saw that in how they performed on the pitch.

Yes, our players are worn and washed out. But not because they're bad players, I personally cannot imagine working in an environment where the bare minimum is what's required and accepted. It's just asking for me to slag off and basically not give a sh!t myself. Now even worse, imagine this in a competitive environment like football. This is what I mean by toxic environment. It comes from the management and the coach. A coach who not only seems completely, 100% out of his depth tactically, bot motivationally, morally, he is simply bereft and this translates onto the players. It's why I maintain that the coach is the first and foremost issue here and has been since Allegri imo.

After that step is taken? OF COURSE we need to make improvements within the squad. Of course there are players who have no business playing at Milan if we ever wish to compete again. But with the squad as is? I still maintain that a proper tactician and motivator that the players actually look up to and listen to we should be getting into that 3d position


Sure a more established coach would demand more because he WANTS to compete and actually go for the title, which is what Milan should be doing, not even going for 3rd. But an experienced coach with this squad as is should at the very least be fighting tooth and nail for 3rd


How they came for me is not an issue. If you're good and let your contract run down or had a spat with your old club, that doesn't effect how good a player is.


Underestimating Serie A? No, I feel we've all been overestimating it these past few years, still believing it's any good when it obviously isn't these days.

Are they a bad combination of players?

How can you come to that conclusion when Pippo has simply failed dismally at even attempting to combine them and make them into a team. Simply put we have individuals, not a team. As Danny said, he changes formation each week, he plays players continuously out of position, he doesn't play his best 11. It's just a whole slew of issues that imo not only add to our problem but triple them. We don't have a great squad, I never said it was. I've always maintained that we have a decent group of players, but they need good direction to play to their best abilities, and they simply don't have that which makes them look far worse than they truly are


Yep


As I said to Danny, does it really matter if at the end we finish 11th, 10th or 9th? At the end of the day it's still a massive failure and not where this squad should be in that table. At best we are a 3rd place team, at worst a 4-5th placed team, anything less is a failure


Not that much and most of those have not played regularly this season for various reasons

Only two of them play if fit - Monto and Abate. The rest are now surplus. And I'm hearing SES is being lined up for Arsenal or Liverpool at £11.5M.

I actually meant last 3 coaches, not last 3 years.

Not only do I disagree we're not close to Napoli. They're closer to Juve and Roma than we are to them. I'd take Inter's squad over ours without any hesitation. I'm not sure which of their first XI wouldn't get in to our side? Probably just De Jong over Medel.

Last three coaches, which were Allegri (no need to express my opinion there), Seedorf and Inzaghi (absolute newbies). There's a constant here as well, Kurt, and that is incapacity. Before them we had another rookie in Leonardo. We haven't had a capable coach since Ancelotti, and many can argue that he stayed past his welcome.

Allegri won the league. We sold all the good players and then we fell bad, clearly the change in players is the difference because we have a constant (manager), so that can't be the difference. It's the playing staff which were the difference, so they obviously caused the change.

I 100% believe that we overachieved finishing 3rd under Allegri. That's why he's far from a bad coach. You aren't successful at 3 clubs in a row if you're bad.

For me its

Juve
-
-
Roma
-
-
-
-
Napoli
Inter
Milan
-
Fiorentina
Lazio
-
The rest

In whichever order you wish to place us and the other 2, no I don't believe there's much of a gap between any of us. But there is a definite vast difference between all 3 of us and Roma, even more so with Juve

Allegri also lost a Scudetto to a team that had previously finished 7th while still having that great squad.

And yes, imo we were still good enough for third once we lost Ibra and Silva, this being a season where Inter were underperforming even worse than us and Roma were still an utter mess. With only Juve being sure title winners and Napoli the always inconsistent "hopefuls"

Allegri won the Scudetto solely relying on single moments of brilliance from his players. He currently inherited a team that was as tactically disciplined and properly coached as any team I've witnessed playing in years and he still has his best players there. If he were to somehow not win that Scudetto it would be a massive shock, even to those like me who absolutely do not rate him as a tactician.

That's a little harsh when said team made quite large changes.

10-11 Juve
Storari; Motta, Bonucci, Chiellini, Grosso; Marchisio, Melo, Aquilani; Pepe, Del Piero, Krasic

11-12 Juve
Buffon; Barzagli, Bonucci, Chiellini; Lichsteiner, Vidal, Pirlo, Marchisio, De Ceglie; Vucinc, Matri

That's 3 of their starters that remained integral pieces. If you think the 11-12 Juve isnt that good a team, then seeing as it's mostly the same team as now, he's obviously doing well to be top, right?

You can also say that Allegri took the title from the best team in Europe. A team that made barely any changes. 09-10 Inter and 10-11 Inter were basically the same team.

Han and X have also gone very silent on Allegri's raging success at Juve.

Fact is the guy is a decent coach, and if Juve suddenly sell their best players and ship out half the squad, I'm sure he'll struggle there too.

Inter without Mourinho were never the same Inter. He took nothing away from them, they just fell over by themselves. The competition that season was scarce, we had Thiago and Ibra and an overall good team, and we simply took what we could without impressing in any way possible. Bare minimum my friend, hardly an achievement for Allegri.

Allegri's true colors showed when he lost the title the following year, whilst arguably having a stronger team and being first for the majority of the season. It was a failure, no matter how you look at it. And then, as Han said, even though we got stripped of all our best players in 12/13, we still had a team capable of getting to 3rd place, so again, he simply attained the attainable whilst playing crap and being helped by the refs.

Let's not use Allegri's 1st, 2nd and 3rd placings in the current context and make them look like fantastic achievements, because they weren't such.



Did I expect him to destroy them? Maybe, but Juventus are a well-oiled machine, and he's simply taking over Conte's work. Raging success? Now now, Danny...

Let's just say we disagree to such an extent there's really no point continuing with this.