Oh i wasn't able to be on my computer (and this forum) on match time so i just want to say hy to everyone who said that R80 can't play behind two strikers!

Cheers!

I'm not looking at whether we were exhausted or not. I'm looking at the genoa/ajax/parma game's performance.


Had we played someone stronger or someone who could actually defend efficiently, we would have tied at best.


But okay you guys are all happy because of 3 points. Fair enough. These small games are important and do matter.


You could say this game was played out the way it was because of exhaustion or whatever, but I don't buy it.

Watching Milan now and watching milan last year. Things are completely different, and i'm not saying in a good way. I gave Leo credit because he still made the team perform at an acceptable level even with the players he had. I will also give Allegri credit when he plays this team at an acceptable level.

Right now we have enough depth in both defence and offence to be able to play 3 games a week for the rest of the year.


But no what does our genius tactioner do? He switches the fundamental aspect of our game from a fast paced fluid style to a slow cautious defensive style in order to compensate for players like seedorf and gattuso who shouldn't play more than once a week.


That is what I have a problem with.



But yes 3 points against parma, wonderful! If we tie or lose next week and if the performance is no different, I'll see what you guys say then.

To be fair..that lineup we started with was never suited to the pressing game. To talk about pressing, you need to have the right people. We don't.

If your front three are not pressing. Then to have your mid-field press is tactically useless. So the moment R80 and Robinho and Ibra were starting together...it was obvious we were going for the possession and pace control over high tempo pressing.


I imagine Blue, for what you're suggesting you could play something like this....


--------Ibra-------Pato
---Flamini----Pirlo-------Boateng----
-----------Strasser------------
----------Defence-----------

That's the only lineup that lends itself to the kind of gameplay you're suggesting. Because none of our other team personnel have the legs to keep up the high pressing tempo.

But as is obvious...it is also probably the most boring formation you'll ever see.

I believe so too

We had a fast-paced fluid style to start with? Now I am no Leo-basher. In fact I thought he did admirably considering the resources at his disposal. But under him we were far from a fast-paced, fluid team. We were a slow moving, possession-keeping team who played a high defensive line, threw our average fullbacks forward, and constantly risked getting ripped to shreds by teams who pressured our slow-moving pass masters. Fluidity implies movement, right? and last year we had next to none. We were rather predictable, relied HEAVILY on Dinho's dribble/pass magic and Pato's skillful speed bursts and opportunism. We showed little willingness to part with the 4-3-3 once injuries came, and the combo of injuries and tactical inflexibility saw us become rather beatable come season's end.

The last time we had a fast paced fluid style was probably the last year Sheva was with us, and for a few matches in 07-08 during champions league, and MAYBE some fleeting moments in 08-09 here and there. We have not had a fast-paced fluid style for a few years now, so it's certainly not Allegri's fault for this sudden change you perceive.

Our approach in this last game was perhaps a little slow and cautious, surely when compared to say Arsenal. But in comparison to our previous few performances prior to Parma it's impossible not to see improvement. Our play was FAR more fluid against Parma than it's been all year, excluding Lecce. It was due in a large part to the fact that Dinho interpreted his role as an outlet from midfield to attack very well, and orchestrated play nicely with one-touch passes. It was his movement that granted us greater fluidity, and saw us completely dominate the first 60 minutes. And it was Allegri that told him to play there. Small credit to him deserved for that, don't you think?

After that, yes, fatigue plays a factor. It afflicts every team at different times of the season, and is a completely understandable explanation for why after a while our team lost their legs around the 60th minute. But surely you wouldn't be too upset if we had scored say 2 of the 6 or 7 excellent chances we created prior to that point. Not that I particularly thought the change was the correct one (in fact I spoke out against it when it happened earler in the thread) but perhaps part of the reason Allegri's sub was Boa and not Flamini is because he believes in Boa's ball-winning, but also the fact that his box-to-box mentality would forcibly drive us forward at times, rather than sit back and defend: which is what we were starting to do and simply couldn't afford to do with just a 1-0 advantage.

I think Allegri's doing OK. I agree that Zee and Rino are once a week players (hell they should be subs). My gripes with Allegri have been said already by Han, X-Off, etc. The reason you are facing so much opposition to your points is because of the vehemence with which you make them following one of the more encouraging performances we've seen from the team in 4 weeks. At the VERY least, this year we have a manager who seems a little more tactically flexible/curious. Given the number of unknown variables in the squad, I think a bit of initial experimentation is good to truly see/gauge what works and what doesn't.

Everything you said would've made sense following the lackluster performances against Lazio, Ajax, and even Genoa. If you remember I was spewing doom and gloom about Allegri's mismanagement in one of the threads after one of our shoddier performances, and you quickly calmed me with a sensible 'wait and see' logic. It's a little baffling that you seemingly fail to recognize a clear improvement, and refuse to heed your own advice now.

and btw, who cares if we get scraped by Madrid blue? Inter lost/drew Barca in the group stages last year, and we all know what happened in the semi's. Blah, Blah, yes i know, Mourinho this and Mourinho that...but the point is this: give it tiiiime.

^^^

I like you. Let's be friends.

I think we can all agree on the fact that Allegri very often fields the wrong players. True, he's still in research of an adequate playing system, but that shouldn't be a justification for playing people like Gattuso and Seedorf every three days. Boateng should be an absolute starter, and Flamini should get more playing time. Dinho and Seedorf should rotate with each other and never play together. These are certain aspects that Allegri has ignored so far. Given our aged players, it'd be only wise to play a more rejuvenated team and use the old guard as substitues of excellence, whenever they may be needed. Hence, I think our starting line-up should always be this:



Yes, I know I constantly criticize Flamini, but he's our healthiest DM and as such should play a majority of games. Gattuso and Ambro don't have the legs of being starters anymore.

Completely agree. Also I think the biggest problem with Flamini is that he never got a real run in this team, he usually subs in for Rino/Ambro or plays when someone is injured. The only consistant run of games he got was under Carlo playing at RB. Imo give him the right ammount of back to back games and we'll really see what he can do. If not we should just sell him, he's being wasted, not to mention the fat pay check he's earning for sitting on the bench.

But what I'd like to point out is by next season Ambro and Rino will be even more finished then they are now, and we'll be stuck searching around for a top quality DM, which wouldn't come cheap, when we already have that in Flamini if he's given the time

Even more finished than they are now? I'm sorry but Gattuso is playing a good season for your information. And last season Ambrosini was playing a good season, now he's injured so I can't tell. If Flamini is a top quality DM, then there are plenty of those and getting one won't be THAT hard. At the moment Flamini should not be a starter in midfield. Instead I like him to see as rightback, but NO... monsieur Flamini don't wanna. He earns so freaking much but doesn't want to play as fullback. Urghh, he reminds me of Kaladze. I don't like Flamini. Overrated, overpayed, and refuses to play where we REALLY can use him.

I want Flamini as rightback or he should leave ASAP!

Gattuso is having a good couple of games, for how long that can continue, we're yet to see, same goes with Ambro last season, imo they're finished as top athletes. They are still great players to have on the team but not as starters. Not anymore.

Please give me a list of top DMs that we can aquire for a reasonable sum of money

Flamini is not a FB! When are we going to learn to stop playing players out of position??! It never works out for us, just creates more problems in the long run. I really don't understand your wish to play everyone in that RB position, especially when they're not that. First Bonera, didn't last, then Abate, didn't last, now Flamini?

Having consistant playing time will get Flamini back on track, his problem is that he's not getting that, therefore he can't really get into any sort of decent form.

Sorry CHU, I usually agree with you, but playing Flamini as RB would be a waste. He needs to play in his position. han is right, we should give him some 4-5 games to prove himself. If he fails to impress, then we can easily put a cross on him.

You keep on putting tags on players. ''Bonera is a CB'' - so he can't play anywhere else. ''Abate is a RM/RW'' - so he can't play anywhere else. ''Flamini is a (defensive) midfielder'' - so he can't play anywhere else. I disagree with your tag system. They are football players and of course at one position they are better than on a different position, but that doesn't mean that someone who has rightback as his best position is automaticly better as rightback than someone who hasn't got rightback as his best position. I actually remember you calling Oddo our 2nd (or 3rd) best rightback option.

Flamini at rightback is a waste? The way I look at it is that our fullbacks aren't that good and if Flamini plays better rightback than someone else, then why the hell not? That doesn't mean I only want Flamini as rightback, I also want to see him in midfield. We need him during the season in midfield too. I just get sick of players who refuse to play somewhere while his team really can need him. Of course Flamini isn't really a fullback, but he can play it and we don't have good fullbacks. If only we had good fullbacks I didn't even had to mention this.

My "Tag System" as you call it is there for a reason! What's the point of playing Abate or Bonera at RB if they're going to f*** it up anyway and it will cost us during a game when they're caught out because they're not in their natural position? Do you see any other top team playin their players out of position? Especially when it comes to their defence? No! That is for a reason. Before the season started you were insisting that Bonera was our best choice when Zambrotta was out, how long did that last? 2 games, 1 against Lecce where he had nothing to do and the other against Cesena where he got ripped apart and left us wide open and exposed.

And yes Oddo imo is our 2nd/3rd choice if Antonini can swith to the right that is. We have no other RB and playing Abate or Oddo to me is still swimming in the same pile of cr@p but at least Oddo is comfortable playing in that position instead of having Abate who doesn't know what the hell he's doing 99% of the time. Same thing goes with Flamini and wanting him to play there.

He's not a RB, therefore chances are that he will get caught out on more then one occasion, not to mention that he can't cross a ball to save his life. There is no point to it, especially when we need him playing in that miidfield


Yes he's a waste there. He'll make mistakes, can't cross, etc. Flamini is not a better RB then Zambrotta, and if it comes down to it, Oddo would be more equipped to playing there as he's more used to it. Would you really like to see Flamini coming up against Raonldo? He won't be able to mark him well and close him down like a player who's been playing the position all his life would. If we were talking about another position aside from defense I wouldn't mind switching a player to another position, simply because it isn't as crucial as a defender's position, where one mistake can easily cost us a game.

The rightback position is not a strange one for Bonera. And I disagree, I think Bonera and Abate are not that bad rightbacks as you find them. Other teams have played also players out of position. Eto'o was suddenly not a striker anymore at Inter, he was a winger or so, and it payed off a lot.


I disagree a lot there. Oddo f***s up a whole lot more at rightback than those who are no fullbacks in your opinion. And you really exaggarting with Abate. It won't happen with Flamini. He is a better fullback than Oddo without being a fullback.


And that makes him worse than our fullbacks how? Our fullbacks are terrible in crossing.

So Zambrotta is a better rightback, but only he is probably. And stop it with Oddo. The chance Oddo making a mistake is a million times bigger than Flamini. Hey, I actually have been nice to Flamini in this reply.

Like I said, switching player positions in any other area besides defence I'm ok with, Eto'o is just WC play him anywhere in the attack and he'll make things happen for you, playing someone like Abate or Bonera in a position they're not comfortable in and you'll have problems, just like we've seen multiple times over this season and last season.

If it cam down to choosing between Abate, Flamini or Oddo, I'd choose Oddo. Flamini hasn't played in the RB position for over a year now, and Abate is just hopeless when he faces a team with mildly decent wingers. At least Oddo knows how to position himself, he might be cr@p at everything else, but he knows how to do that. I'd rather have someone who can't pass, cross or run but still knows how to defend when needed then someone who can run for 90 minutes and when it comes down to it he makes a mistake at a crucial moment

At least with our other FBs I know that if they can't cross they're still reliable in all the other areas a FB should be good at.

You can't predict that! Imo the chance of Oddo making a terrible defensive mistake is much lower then Flamini making one.

All this arguing is pointless, we argued about both Abate and Bonera and both times the players showed tht my points were very much valid, with neither being able to hold the position for longer the a match without massively scewing up.

As for Flamini, either we play him in his position or we sell him. No point in wasting a 5m a season player in a position where he can't give his all in.

I'm with you on Flamini, han. Not because he might do badly playing as RB, but because we need him more in midfield. But Abate and Bonera will always do a better job than Oddo. Oddo is a disgrace to our team, by far the worst player we have. He should have left this summer along with Jankulovski.

Is han calling Oddo reliable?


I'm not going to comment on your post, because I would repeat myself (you are in repeat also). Obviously we agree to disagree...

X-Offender, I agree we need Flamini in midfield (but not always). He isn't always a starter in midfield, and in moments like that I rather see Flamini as rightback than on the bench if we don't have two proper fullbacks available. Maybe I don't even want Flamini as often as rightback as it may have looked. Just when it seems wise because of who are missing at that moment. I find it a shame when a player refuses to play a certain position.

Woa, what a discussion. To be honest, I agree with many things all of you said. The truth is somewhere in the middle, at least for me.

I think Milan has a fullback issue which is permanent. Oddo, Abate, Bonera, Zambrotta or Flamini all can be used as RB's sometimes, but sometimes isn't good enough if we're ambitious. Every of those players has at least one major flaw. And the thing is, we have a even worse situation on the left side. Meaning, just simply - we got to buy new fullbacks and keep our current in the roster as well.

As for the choice, I do think Bonera can be a RB, but a very bad one. Last season and this one Bonera made big set-back and truth to be told I don't think we need him any more around. I think all of our CB's are better then him plus he's getting constantly injured. I think we should try out Sokratis as a RB, and see what comes up. If not I'd go this way: Zambrotta>Oddo>Flamini>Abate>Bonera.

You also talked about midfielders and DM's. Actually, I think for the team stability, it is good to have either Rino or Ambro as a fix starter. Firstly, Ambro had really good two seasons and Rino is playing right now excellent. He'll catch up some break now with the international fixtures and maybe keep on the good work. Maybe not? Well, why do we care? Who know how long he's gonna play so good? Why do we bother knowing? Remember Serginho, the guy is the ultimate definition of Renaissance he had not one, not two...three or more. Who are we to judge wether Rino will be good or not in 2 months? (Also, I don't think that Flamini is THAT good, so I don't consider him as a real alternative. The guy IMO just didn't click with Milan).

I think the 'issue' with crossing is a lot deeper. It's in fact very basic.

We're playing a 4-3-3. With two wingforwards. The question is...who attacks the box?? Take our last match, the amount of times it was just Ibra in the box is countless. In such a situation, ANY fullback..would find it next to impossible to find one person in a box full of other players.

As long as we play with just one proper striker, I think we shall continue to have this problem. Our fullback tactics now seem to be more suited to the types who makes overlapping runs into the box. I actually think it's time to dust Janku off..if he's fit.

I was talking about Zambro and Antonini there.

But in a really tight siutation when it came to a decision between Oddo and Flamini, would I choose the midfielder who hasn't played the position in a long time and isn't really comfortable playing in it or the RB who might be cr@p at everything else but would at least know how to play the position

I agree, but we have a fullback-crossing issue long time before even 4-3-3 was implemented...the moment we lost Serginho and Cafu and never ever cared not to replace them (which is impossible) but to bring in some similar players.

Roughly coincided with the time we started playing that one-striker formation thing.

Oh...

Except for those two no one is better at fullback than Flamini IMO. Assuming Antonini is on LB, I prefer Zambrotta, Flamini, Abate, Bonera and Papastathopoulos all over Oddo as rightback. I don't see the problem in using Flamini as both a backup for midfield and rightback, well, except for the fact he refuses the latter.

I don't think he'd refuse, but for example like Carlo, he wanted him at RB only and rarely ever played him in his own position. I think it emergency situations he'd be ok to play it, but he understandably wants to play in the midfield

I still belive he'd be better then Abate as RB, who at this point is Milans second choice RB.

We agree with this.

We could play Pato at right back. You know, for pace.

[/serious]

Pato is better on the left. Pato LB, Abate RB = unstoppable

And Odu as 1st backup. ..or wait, Odu is quicker than Abate, isn't he?.. Odu at RB then

fifa ftw

Why not. Bastos is a left wing forward in the League. He played as left back.

After which Lyon stopped winning the Championship

Screw the championship. We want our team to be young...and fast!!!

Coz if you're young and you run around like a hamster...it means you're 'trying' and all your sins of being sucktastic as a footballer are forgiven.

You're contradicting yourself. You say we shouldn't play Abate as RB because he's a wing-forward. Bastos, on the other hand, who's naturally a wing-forward as well, is being used in his natural position at Lyon and that's the reason why they're not winning anymore. Make up your mind, pal.

Exactly! I mean, for example look at Seedorf in the 2nd half of the Parma game... I'd much rather have a headless chicken out there!

As opposed to Seedorf against Bayern and Man U. Most definitely.

That was 2007 for crying out loud!! do you believe Seedorf is still capable of such performances? (no, I'm not talking about making an assist or something. I'm talking about putting on a world class performance like the Man U one)

Actually, Lyon is playing Bastos more and more as an LB, which conicidences with their downfall. That, and of course a suckastic defense + not so special attack.

Do you think people just stop being great at some point. Well, I don't, even at the cost of sounding very idealistic. I think some talent, some world class players like Pirlo, Seedorf, Gattuso or Shevchenko will always have that something in them that will give them the possibility to shine and to outshine anyone else. Maybe more rarer then they used to do it, but still.

And you would be willing to wager the fortunes of a club like AC Milan on them? The debacle of the 2008 season still haunts us in the background, missing the CL revenue and loss of sponsorship fees. We haven't been able to set foot in quarters since then.

Don't get me wrong, I think being 30 plus is no hindrance (as long a player performs). Maldini did that up till his 40s, and I was the first to commend him on that. But deep down inside me as a fan, and surely he as a player knew that if he could not keep up, he'll hang his boots, taking the bench was not something that crossed his mind (read his interviews, if you must). Problem is that there are few if any like Paolo, and even they come along once in a generation.

Fact is, the performances of our aging midfield has been on the decline continuously for the past few years. And no, a string of good showings at the start of a season, or occasional glimpses like past glories, does not count. I am talking about the business end of the league, the last stretch of matches, the added pressure of a title race. We used to hit on Kaladze for turning into a leech and sucking the club dry. Frankly my dear, these other guys are doing, or will do the same if we keep renewing. Do you honestly believe Inzaghi deserves 4 million (factor in taxes and it amounts to 8 million) a season for the four goals he scores. Part of it is because of his aging legs, the rest due to coaches who did not play him as often as they should have. No wonder Palermo are catching up.

Seedorf was no where to be seen in the Parma match (I literally had to focus on the screen to find him), and if the same thing happens against Real, inter and other big teams this season, get ready for another 0-4 scoreline. People don't stop being great, they just stop being useful. Rui Costa still had his mojo in the Milan-Madrid Legends exhibition match a few months ago. But he was wise enough to hang his boots when the time came. He had a presence of mind to move ahead after seeing a youngster was breaking through: Kaka.

By no means. but it takes more than talent and greatness for a footballer to compete at the highest level. it's an sport not art or philosophy. Seedorf is really and honestly one of the most brilliant players to have ever played for Milan. his ball control is second to none in the history of the game. I give him that. but at this point it's more than obvious he can't go on and play full games anymore. Parma game was a very good example. he was seriously passing out in the second half, and it's only the start of the season... would I rather play someone else who's got the stamina to play at the level a Milan player should for 90 minutes? definitely. I'd use Seedorf as some sort of golden sub or something.

Remember, he's 33 years old.

Really? What about Cissokho?



Talent doesn't age, your body does. And with a declining physical structure, talent is just useless. We're talking about players like Gattuso, Ambrosini, Seedorf and Inzaghi, who're 32, 33, 34 and 37 respectively. You can be a fantastic talent, but if you can't keep up with the pace of a football game anymore, then it's time to call it quits.

Then we agree. I never said Seedorf should remain a starter till the end of time. He should be a sub, but I think we should keep holding on him and the rest of these guys. If not, once they leave, we'll see how terribly hard it is to replace them. Especially all at once.


Gosh, I don't consider 2008 anything else then a set-back. If you call it a debacle, what would 1994/95 mean to you? I just don't think it is possible to win all the time, to be best every season. Milan played for years, hell maybe a bit less then a decade on top level. Maybe we ended up 3rd, 4th or 5th, but to me, it was still on the top level. We managed IMO to overcome this transitional crisis and trying to rebuild again - winning silverware again. But Milan experienced a minor set-back! Last CL win is still only 3 years ago! The greatest problem of this golden generation, the 2000-2009 generation was neglecting the league; which also wasn't 100% our fault due to all the Calciopoli business.

That said, I belive great teams and generations are built and exist in cycles. You are on top for some time, and then you start the decline, which cannot be avoided. Problem is, many new Milan fans are only accostumed to Milan winning and the golden Milan. Older Rossoneri fans would tell you how glad they are Berlusconi rescued the club from Serie B football and scandals. I have experienced the chaos of AC Milan that ruled for 4-5 years, from 1994-1999 in which we changed litterary dozens of players and a few coaches. What is the debacle of 2008 compared to that?

You see, I understand our problems. I understand the tactis as well as anyone who watches football a lot. I know we cannot field a all-oldie midfield every time we face a team or even once a season. I know we need new players, but I see everything happening slowly and that's the pace Milan is accostumed right now. Sure we lost a season, two, or three...but hey, we still have the basis, the needed talent and knowledge to be world class...we're not lightyears away.

Puel is playing them both on left, but Bastos isn't a winger there either. Yes, you are right, Cissokho is the standard LB, my bad

Point is, he's never really played the winger role. And Brazil's downfall...well...can also be manifested in playing Bastos on the wrong position. Sure, not the main reason, still...

I think Bastos would do fine as LB. If you think about it, he's the same kind of player that Dani Alves is. He's just playing in a team that's having a crappy moment, so he obviously gets part of the blame.

Um, disaster? I did not personally follow that period much (94 was the first year I paid attention to the World Cup, and had a special eye on Paolo in the final, followed him back to the club), but I was here in the dark ages of late 90s and early 00s. There were hard times before that and after, I know. One thing that we should all keep in mind is the changed dynamics of world football, what was considered a norm then may not be not now.

While I agree with what most of you said, my only gripe would be with the slowness of the process of transition from 30-year-olds to 24-years-olds. And that slowness comes back to hurt the team. And no I am no glory hunter, far from it. I may have already said in a few of my posts, years back, that I would still follow Milan to the depths of Serie C3 if it ever comes to it (havens forbid). But when you know the potential of the club you follow, and to see it going to waste because of bad management decisions is no good feeling.

Unless of course, the idea is to float in, staying anywhere from 2nd to 4th in the league, and a quarters appearance in the CL by a stroke of luck every now and then. Then it is okay.

Ok..cool.

Find me a Seedorf, Pirlo, Rino, Pippo replacement.

And don't say Merkel, Fossati, Strasser, Paloschi.

If they were actually 'replacements' they'd have done it by now. The same way Kaka did Rui Costa. The problem here is we've seen those players at their best. At how awesome they can be..so anything less- like a 6.5/10 performance is simply unacceptable to us. I believe they've become victims of their own status. Hence we criticise them for being poor and then blame it on the age factor.

People criticise Seedorf. I wonder why they don't notice that he doesn't even play that same role he was playing back in the 2000-2005 period. He's played about 4 different roles I can count over the years, and he's delivered as best he could. Any credit?? Nope.

Pirlo's given hell for being too slow and not giving assists (Not necessarily here)...but nobody seems to realise that it is possible for a player to be shut down..and if Pirlo is shut down Milan stop playing.

Rino's just come off an injury..no continuity..and he's actually playing excellently now. But truth is no matter how well he plays, people will want him off...coz somehow youth are more attractive.

Pippo is playing as a supersub. And his replacement was supposed to be Paloschi. Maybe the boy is still injured, but if he isn't then you have to wonder why a 35 year old Crespo was chosen to start instead of him.

It doesn't matter where he plays, he's good in every role. his age and stamina level are the problem with him. I don't understand why that upsets you so much.


Absolutely, I never said sell Seedorf and I don't think we should. I'm saying give him a role that makes him even more effective that he is now.

I'm upset, because the fact that there is no one on the bench who can come on and contribute as well as he did in his prime is being somehow painted to be his fault. As a result when he's on the field and he's playing every game and he's exhausted due to which his performance drops he's reviled and criticised.

When the fact is people from Paolo to Ambro to Seedorf have for sometime been asking for the team to be strengthened. The board has decided they're not going to buy for the sake of buying at least in the mid field and defence department, though they happily screw up when it comes to forwards.

But seriously..none of this can be put upon the players in the squad. I stand by each one of them...no matter how insignificant their roles are...until and unless they do some crazy crap like Kaladze did.

Didn't Milan play the CL final in the 94/95 season? How's that a debacle?

Seedorf's fault? nah I think it's either the coach's or the board's. I wanted to say in me previous post that it's not his fault he's played so much.. wish I had!

Like any other player, he sometimes deserves to be criticized. but this current debate, as far as I'm concerned, has nothing to do with that. it's about how he can't play efficiently more than 40-60 minutes anymore. against Parma, it wasn't his lack of trying that baffled me. it was Max's decision to play him fro, start to finish and use his subs somewhere else when Seeford was having a hard time running, let alone playing football.