You've been preaching that from day one, but I still disagree.

This game tonight was a passionless couldn't give a rat's *ss Milan with no system, no tactic, and the worrying inability to string more than 3 passes together anywhere on the pitch.

The defence was pathetic - I have no idea why two beta defenders started rather than an alpha and a beta together, and sure, Zaps' passing was painful, but he was our best player overall and actually stopped about 3 goals. Ely was non-existent as a partner and I just cannot fathom Miha's thinking in selecting that pair.

The midfield could have been dummies they moved so little, and the forwards couldn't link with each other at all. As in couldn't find each other with a single pass.

This was actually worse than anything I ever saw under Pippo - the absence of a single redeeming feature was truly pitiful - I take nothing from that match to work with. It was worse than all last summer ICC matches because we basically didn't touch the ball the whole night. Even though City and Olympiakos routed us, we managed more possession than we did tonight. It literally must have been 75/25.

To go from a very solid display v Real to that absolute shite is really worrying. Miha's bad-tempered volley was also concerning - were the players just not doing it for him? Were they failing to understand his instructions? Was he annoyed at their poor displays?

Friendly it may be, but that was deeply troubling. Yes, it was Bayern who are absolutely brilliant, but we just looked something below pathetic.

How can we go forward v Real then backwards like that?

switched it off when they scored the 2nd , its so one sided i don't even want to know how many shots on target we had.

I don't agree that they played at 50%, they were running their asses off, especially in that first half. The first thought I had after watching the first ten minutes is that they were taking this seriously. Certainly didn't look like they were treating it as a simple warm up. Even if they didn't play all their first 11 players, they still have a lot more quality than us. Whuch is the point here. Last season we looked this ragged in games against Samp and Genoa, two teams that pressed us and got a little physical with us, teams that are inferior to us not Bayern Munichs. I think given the serious limitatioms we have in midfield we did what we could againt a Bayern that played a high energy pressing game.

Of course we still have major shortcomings in our squad, that was the first post I made after the match started. We need a proper regista desperately in our midfield and also a proper AM.

I think the point abiut Pippo is that he was the biggest problem because he simply had no clue about any sort of tactical game plan, however now with Miha I personally think that it is very obvious that he has one and it shiws in the way we play. Sure at times we're going to face teams that are so far ahead of us quality wise that that is still going to be glaringly obvious no matter who's coaching us. But I think it's important that Miha is working so hard on installing a tactical ideology in the players and getting them to follow it. I personally think that's already a mojor step forward compared to what was going on under Pippo.

One other major improvent I've seen is in how we defend. Today I don't think that was as apparent because Bona and Berto looked completely lost, but against Real and Inter we really defended well, and not just with the 4 defenders but the mids also made sure to help out and were doing a very good job at defending with the guys at the back as a whole unit. Also the defending on set pieces is a million times better compared to what it has neen for the last 4 or 5 years

so apperently this happened

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/...alf-tackle.html

All your point about our link up, possession and passing have all to do with not having a proper creative outlet in midfield imo

Also I think it is easy to understand how we can go from the Real game to the Bayern one. Bayern were a lot more agressive, and while Real probably had even more top quality players against us on the pitch they were playing a slow paced game which we were confortable with, they weren't pressing us like Bayern were, so our limited players in midfield had more time on the ball to pick their passes, think, touch the bal 2 or 3 times before moving it. Today however they were pushed to think, react and act quicker, and they simply do not have the quality to do that

It's wonderful that you're optimistic, maybe I'm wrong. But say, one more time, other then defending with midfielders as well, what improvement did you see?

Because today I saw the Milan I hope I'll never see again. The same old story, no idea, no intention of showing up or playing. With that posture, Bayern or Bayer or a Regionalliga team, Milan would have been defeated with no effort. I really don't see much progress and that makes me very pessimistic at the moment.

Are people really surprised that we played like crap? I'm not. This summer has been a complete let down so far. We started big, with huge ambitions and money to spend. Ancelotti, Kondogbia, Jackson, Ibra etc. All that ended up being a pipe dream. Our only good signing has been Bacca, who's really a poacher and won't produce anything in this team full of clueless dimwits. Luiz Adriano is average, and Bertolacci is proving to be just exactly what he is, i.e. another Bonaventura.

Unless we sign Romagonoli, Witsel and Ibra, I predict another 10th placement next season. Just changing coach ain't gonna improve jackshit if you don't strengthen the team with the adequate players.

Come on Filippo! I'm usually the pessimistic one!

On a serious note, I get what you're saying, but Bayern didn't really let us play at all. We just weren't in it, at all. And I don't agree that we could have played against any other team and the outcome would have been the same. You'll be hard pressed to find anyone close to Bayern's quality in the league, even Juve are no where near that, and no one in Serie plays that kind of high energy pressing game which we simply couldn't cope with.

Like I said, do I think that we still have some major shortcomings in our squad? Yes. Do I think that it's a major problem and is it worrying? Yes, of course. But do I think that it will be exposed to the level that it did against Bayern yesterday? No, not even anywhere close to that.

Just an example of this. I've been saying that I think personnel wise our defence is decent enough for Serie A. We're okay in the FB department for now because the competition in the league is what it is. I think that's it's okay for until we want to mount a serious title challenge/play CL football. But look at how Antonelli for example was getting creamed throughout the first half. The LB who has looked good in Serie A just couldn't cope with the Bayern players running at him. But this is what I mean when I say that we're not going to be facing Bayern each week in the league. And I think the tactical improvements Miha has and will implement over the nothing Pippo provided will already be a major step forward in how we perform in the league. At least this season I'm more confident that we will win against the team we should easily be winning against.

I think the game tonight against Spurs will be a better indicator. If we play anywhere close to like we did yesterday, then I think we can all start pressing the panic buttons

A meaningless third place playoff v Spurs in a friendly?

Odd one to judge with. Especially as you refuse to judge against Inter in a match which had arguably infinitely more meaning.

Gazzetta has Zapata as MOM for us and Honda as flop.

I'm not saying it's enough to make a final judgement, and it is a meaningless game at the end of it, just like the Bayern, Real and Inter games also were.

Also, how many times can I say that we were playing the Inter Primavera in the ICC...

But if we struggle as much as we did yesterday against Spurs, then sure, we can start to worry a bit more, still ultimately a meaningless friendly as they've all been. But I'm expecting a reaction considering how Miha reacted during the match, even if it really ultimately means nothing to us


Did they actually watch? Zapata was pretty awful if you ask me. A couple of good blocks and tackles but the fact that he repeatedly puts himself and team mates under pressure due to some awful decision making is why I don't rate him.

De Jong was our MoM for me. Honda was bad, but I guess he caught the eye more because he was working hard to try to get on the ball (even if he failed every time he did get it). Bona and Bertolacci were worse imo as they MIA throughout their time on the pitch

If I'm biased against Mexes but can at least credit him with good play, your bias against Zapata is actually blinding you and stopping you seeing what he's actually doing.

He was widely regarded as our best player last night, and not just by Gazzetta.

He did nothing. Like everyone else spent more time giving away the ball and making some awful fouls than doing anything productive.

Don't get were you get my bias towards Zapata, as I said, I simply do not rate him because of his recklessness and stupid/questionable decision making which simply negates all the other good things he's capable of doing

I'm personally lenient about many things when I'm trying to give a player a chance, but being a liability is something I personally think is the end of my limits tbh. I can understand a player being limited and not being particularly good in one area or another. But being the guy who puts his team mates under pressure because of poor decision making in what is supposed to be elementary level basics of football is a major pet peeve for me. If he's not capable of playing out just keep things simple. No need to try and dribble through 3 or 4 players (like he actually did yesterday for some reason which I cannot understand), or try to make a more complicated pass forward when your CB partner is open right next to you.

Like I said, I think he had good moments, but his idiotic ones for me erase most of the good he does as just those instances could easily end up costing us a lot. Look at Alex yesterday, passing right into the opposing player. Bayern get possession back, Lewandowski gets it and bang, they score.

Diasgree, he was the only mid who actually showed up. Defenders all did the best they could, Bayern had loads of chances and those came at times because our back 4 was continually caught in no man's land.

So you forgive Mexes for getting 400 red cards but you won't forgive Zaps for his 'moments'?

And I find it slightly odd that you won't forgive liabilities yet will forgive Mexes when he's one.

I don't think that Mexes even has 10 red cards during his entire Milan career so far. I know you're exaggerating to make a point, but there is a difference here. Zapata does this in almost each game he plays. Just because his blunder doesn't get punished so it is forgotten quickly, doesn't make this very big flaw in his game disappear. Yesterday his 2 mistakes weren't punished, so it's all sunshine and rainbows for you and maybe even to some journalists, but it isn't for me. Does that make me biased towards him? I don't think so, I just don't tolerate certain types of mistakes which I think pro players shouldn't even make on rare occasions let alone with the consistency that Zapata does.

Mexes is different, sure he loses his cool once or twice in a season. But his issues are simply not related to the way he plays. Do I get p!ssed off when he's sent off? Sure, and do I want him to eliminate that aspect from his game? Of course! But as a player Mexes is simply superior to Zapata in each way and this does counter the fact that he can be a loose canon at times.

There are many players who have the same problem as Mexes as well, even great ones (we experienced this most recently with Zlatan, Balo, heck even Menez has a red card in him considering all the diving and petulance, and others in the past as well like Rino with his temper and Ambro with his rash tackles).

My point is, it's not the same thing. Zapata could easily eliminate this major flaw from his game and he simply never learns

So the fact that Zapata was MOTM yesterday for us doesn't counter the fact he made some passing errors, but Mexes' qualities DO counter his tendency to strangle opponents.

In other words, you look at Mexes' positives and use them to negate the negatives, and you look at Zaps' negatives and use them to negate the positives.

Simple.

PS at least we've moved on from f*ckin' SES

I think you're biased towards Zapata, Han. Sure, he's not reliable and I totally agree with you about that, but when he has a decent showing it's good to acknowledge it. Being unreliable doesn't make him automatically bad in every match. Now, I didn't watch last night's game, but if Zapata was as bad you make him out to be, then he wouldn't have been awarded MOM from anyone.

Well, Zapata was his usual if you ask me. Some good, some bad moments. But tipping him as MOM is too far for me. He scored and owngoal and also another owngoal that has been disallowed. He had numerous small good interceptions but his positioning was also off. All in all, no, he wasn't our best player. Neither was De Jong, that's for sure.

Hopefully.

I'm unable to watch the game myself, but I'll rely on what you guys see and comment. You speak of tactical improvements but again, I say - Milan should never ever play like we did under Allegri and Inzaghi. And last night it was the exact same Milan. The team that has no intention of attacking, no intention of playing or doing anything other then mindless defending and running around the pitch.

+∞

Being awarded MoM by a Gazzetta journalist doesn't make it so. It's an opinion of one person, just like it's mine that he wasn't

Like I said, there are some things that for me are a big pet peeve. And Zapata majorly ticks that box, just like Bonera and Muntari used to.

I'm not really as against Zapata as I was with those 2, I don't mind him playing all that much as long as he's next to either Mexes or Alex who can be a guide for him and his questionable positioning. And as you might remember I was 100% against either Muntari or Bonera ever starting. But, his issues are something that really annoys me, and for someone to commit the mistakes that he did, should never be given a MoM award.

I acknowledged first and foremost that he did have some good moments with tackles and interceptions. I like the fact that he's quick and can get back to make the challenge for example. I just don't agree that he's MoM, simply because his mistakes could have just as easily led to another 2 goals conceded for us

Also, you say I'm biased towards Mexes, but I explained why I don't feel his particular issues are the same here. I certainly don't think he's half the liability Zapata is that's for sure.


Scored another pretty great goal for Monaco in the CL qualifier


I can assure you I'm not, I won't repeat what I said to Danny here as well. I acknowledged that he did have good moments. But for me, when you make the kind of blunders he did yesterday you simply cannot be MoM

I never said that he was overall bad, but his moments of idiocy take a lot away from what are essentially decent to good performances, at least for me. If he has an overall good game but is the player who passed right to the opposition and cost us a goal everyone would label him the flop. Thing is, he has these moments in nearly each game, and when it doesn't get punished for most it's okay to sweep it under the rug, but for me it mares the overall performance as he's continually showing himself to be a goal hazard for us, who we simply cannot rely on


Agreed

De Jong for me was the only one who I could really make positive points about without all that much negative. That's why he's MoM for me, more by default.

If De Jong is a big no for you guys then the only guy left for me would be Lopez, who was great as usual and could do nothing about the goals

It actually always makes me laugh when I see Mexes or him passing out of defence, they both have more range than all our mids combined, which is actually pretty sad


I think there have been obvious tactical improvements and we showed these in the ICC. For me those games were both basically worthless considering we played Inter's Primavera and a barely interested Real. But it was interesting to see the movements of the players, and I do think that there is an obvious system that Miha is adapting.

Will it always work> Of course not, especially at such an early stage and while we still have very obvious issues in midfield.

Also, I don't think it had anything to do with intentions or lack-there-of. Bayern simply didn't let our players play. They didn't allow them time and space, and when you don't have smart, technical players in midfield and they get that type of high energy pressing, they simply lose the ball and don't know how to play out of tight situations, which is why we spent most of the game chasing shadows. It had nothing to do with intentions imo. Just facing an opponent who is miles ahead of us in terms of quality and also ahead of us in terms of fitness

Like I said, if we struggle to the same degree against Spurs as we did yesterday against Bayern, then that should be a more real cause for concern

Hey, me too! Can't stand mediocrity, when it's coupled with regular mistakes. And regular chances.

Good to know I'm not alone on this


Anyway, here's the line-up for the game vs Spurs

(4-3-1-2): Abbiati; Abate, Alex, Mexes, Calabria; Poli, Montolivo, Mauri; Suso; Matri, Cerci.


Looks... Interesting...

Aye, nothing to add (or subtract) from your post above, from me. In a perfect world, we'd have better defenders playing for us than what we have now. But having observed both Mexès and Zapata for years now in the league, I know who I would choose for us, and it will not be the one whose name begins with the letter Z.

Been burned far too many times with is misplaced passes, judgmental errors and basic defensive mistakes.

Turned it off , can't watch any more of these pre season games...roll on the real games with meaning..

Btw what type of football does Siniša Mihajlović usually employ because from watching the last few games we have mainly been using the flanks , if not lobbing it forward and playing less on the floor.

would be useful to know what he played at his former clubs..plz anyone i want to know what we are in for , for the rest of the season.

Counter attacking ?

New system

New signings

New captain

New manager

Same old Milan.

Sincerely hope we play better than this when the serious stuff starts otherwise this is absolutely no different a season in prospect to last.

why do we play these tournaments against teams that are just about to star there season what a morale demoraliser.

sad but true...and we have fiorentina to bed in with first game

Thought it was at 8:45...

Will have to catch the replay.

Goin by d pre-season soo far,all we have r bunch of crab....diz is an eye opener 4d management 2knw dat wit diz team,CL or EL is not achievable 4us.....we need a creative and talented midfielder n an established CB to start with.

Prepare for a fantastic 90 minutes of flair and invention.

From Spurs' B team.

Yeah me too.

Should I just not watch?


Seems like it was a good move on our part to forget this one

Btw, Monto was taken to hospital yesterday, I guess he got injured during the match? Don't know what the injury is though

Niang out for 3 months with broken bones in his foot...

So, is it now that we can push the panic button Han?

I think this is what Mr Pippo was referring to...

It's alarming, there's no getting around it. What has really changed from last season? New manager, a few so-so signings and that's it. In the beginning I was thinking we'd spend big time and get important names, but nothing of the sort has happened. The start of the season is 16 days away, and we're in a dire situation.

Defence = shite. I was dreadfully worried about the state of it, and 5 goals conceded in two games backs that up. We don't have a single CB I completely trust. Mexes = always getting sent off. Alex = always getting injured. Zaps = needs an alpha partner. All our faith is going in some kid from Roma FFS.

Midfield = shite. I am going to concede to Han on this - while I don't fully think a regista is the solution to EVERYTHING, we are in dire need of one. We simply do not have one single player we trust to put his foot on the ball and make a pass. We have no Pirlo, Gerrard, Modric, Turan type player in there. Witsel would be that man but we seem miles away from getting him. We just have no control in the middle.

Attack = it has potential but without supply it's not going to score.

Management = worrying. We looked great first half v Real, but since then it's fallen to pieces. The Audi Cup was utterly embarrassing - every inch the ICC from last summer. It's one thing losing to Greek champions, or a strong Liverpool, or Man City - but f*cking SPURS?!

Didn't watch but going by the comments, I guess it is time to start worrying.

There's obviously sill time to make the 2 or 3 signings we still desperately need imo, but I'm just not confident Galliani will get the job done. He's spent too much money already on signings that haven't really improved the squad imo and this has been my fear from the very start. Galliani is simply not good enough to handle transfer business anymore


I think the fact that we actually have a proper coach this season will be an important factor over last. But will it be enough to get us into 3rd place on it's own? Obviously not


Thing is, Witsel is not a regista either. He's box-to-box. That's why I'm still so sceptical about the entire thing because we already flushed major money on Bertolacci who's also a box-to-box guy. Witsel imo will bring much needed added quality to the side but he's still not exactly what we need.

If Ibra comes the issue of creativity will be solved. But the fact that we have no orchestrator in our midfield is seriously worrying for me. When we're playing against a side that backs off us it won't be as glaringly problematic, but if we play a team that presses us and gets physical with us we simply have no answer and continually concede possession because our midfielders are all very limited, both creatively and technically

Re the defence. I think Mexes and Zapata is our best bet tbh or Mexes and Romagnoli if we sign him

Berto isn't box to box. Not from his displays this pre-season. He's a sitter. He doesn't move around a hell of a lot. He's a less mobile version of Poli but with more ability to pass simple. He cleans stuff up - not really what we needed but what he does he does fairly well. Did have one absolute zorker of a shot though. Should have been a goal.

Stop relying on Ibra.

I'm going with Alex and Zaps

Witsel might not be Verratti or Modric, but he will still bring much needed quality in midfield. He's like Van Ginkel in a way, only a much better and experienced version of him.

By the way, since we're playing 4-3-1-2 this season, has anyone else wondered that we don't even have a proper trequartista to begin with? Honda is crap, Bonaventura is average, Bertolacci will most definitely be played as CM. That leaves only Suso, who's still a big question mark, and Menez, who's way too much indisciplined to be relied on.

We keep talking about CBs and CMs, but the trequartista role is very important too, especially if Ibra won't come.

Weirdly I'm not overly sure the 1 in the 1-2 IS meant to be a trequartista.

I feel like that position is somewhat redundant - it's evolved into the super forward - the Suarez, Ronaldo, Messi who is as goal-providing as they are creative.

I have a suspicion we're looking less for a treq and more for that all-round super forward. And that's where an Ibra type comes in.

We're just not being linked to ANYONE who fits the bill of treq the way we understand.

Ronaldo is a pure winger, you rarely see him playing in the traditional "hole". Messi can play there because he's a natural number 10, whereas Suarez is a typical striker.

No team plays 4-3-1-2 anymore, at least not the big ones. Juve and Inter re-intoduced it last season after a long time, and Juve had to play Vidal there because they had no proper trequartista, which they are looking for now with names like Draxler and Götze being linked with. Inter already have Hernanes and Kovacic who can play there. We used to play Boateng and Robinho under Allegri because we had no better options.

The point is that if we wanna go for 4-3-1-2, we need someone behind the strikers who can be that creative asset whilst at the same time being a dangerous goal man. Suso is the only one that fits the bills perfectly from the players we have, but he's a big question mark at this point. Honda is crap, as I already said, and Bonaventura can barely be defined a "creative asset". Menez is too indisciplined, just like Ibra will be.

If you remember under Ancelotti, Rui Costa and Kaká spent a huge chunk of their time in midfield, collecting balls and helping the mids. That's what a trequartista entails, and it's the only way a 4-3-1-2 can properly work. I don't buy it for a minute that if you put someone like Menez, Suarez, Ibra etc. behind the strikers it will work, especially Ibra who's 34 and doesn't have it in him to be running at full pace for the whole 90 minutes.

I don't know about Bertolacci. He has certain traits of a box-to-box player like his runs into the box is something that he did a lot at Genoa. But he's not really a great passer and doesn't really track back all that much.

Can't stop, Ibra is the last hope I have for us having a semi-successful season

I think Mexes and Zapata work better together, plus Alex hasn't been all that encouraging this pre-season. His injury issues will also disrupt any continuity we want to get going this season in defence which is something we never had last season and was one of the many factors for our sh!t defence.


Yeah, I agree. That's why I said he will bring much needed quality into our midfield, but he's still not exactly what we need

If you give me a choice of Witsel or Gundogan, I'd take the latter without any hesitation. Because I feel we need a regista more than a box-to-box guy. Even if quality wise they're at about the same level


If Ibra comes we can do without getting someone really good in there, as he'll make whoever plays behind him great because he does bring others into the game. I think Bonaventura for example would excel with Ibra just like Prince and even Noverino did before. But if Ibra is a no-go, this issue is very worrying. Menez doesn't really provide that link and all our potential mids for that spot are average at best without someone like Ibra to really get the best out of them

I still think a CM is still more important than an AM at this point though. We can make do with the guys you've listed for just this season, but the die situation in central midfield for me is the most pressing issue, one that doesn't seem to be anywhere near at the top of Galliani's list. We've had a sh!t midfield for 4 years now, doesn't look like that's about to change anytime soon


Ronaldo either plays on the wing or as a CF, Suarez is a proper striker, I don't think I've ever seen him being played in the hole behind a front 2, Messi as x-off said is a pure 10, but even he doesn't really play the trequartista position either as Barca play a wide 3 upfront.

Like I've been saying already, if Ibra comes he's the main man in attack, not the guy behind the front 2. And really I don't think Adriano and Bacca should be playing next to each other whether Ibra comes or not. 2 pure CFs like those 2 rarely ever work well together.

If Ibra doesn't come then I think it will be Menez and Bacca

You guys give yourself so much effort in analyzing all possible aspects, I gotta say I envy you. But as it looks to me, not much has changed. Milan still does not have the quality or the plan to bring us back in the CL or to the top.

Signing Ibra is a last hope, but it's also a easy way out, a shortcut. It's like Allegri's tactic, just pass the ball to Ibra and hope he'll do something. Now it's, just sing Ibra and a couple of nobody's, then hope something will happen.

I agree. By now, we should have laid the basis for the so-hoped restructuring. But the only players we've signed so far have been Mauri, Bertolacci, Adriano and Bacca. Very, very disappointing.

I've been weary of Galliani's moves and plan from the start. I was called negative and pessimistic. And I understand why you guys labelled me as that as at the start things looked promising. But the 70m he was about to spend on Jackson and Kondogbia were already insane and imo stupid. I don't think either player is worth what we were about to pay.

In the end we managed to get out of both, but it was an overall embarrassing exercise in showing an amateurish way of conducting business from someone who's been at this for nearly 3 decades.

Silvio and Galliani's relentless fetish with strikers still went on though and we spent 38m on 2 forwards who rely on service we cannot provide to be productive.

Overpaying by around 10m for a Roma player who also has only had one decent season at Genoa and we're about to do the same with Romagnoli. Neither player would have had a sniff in at being a starter at Roma btw.

Witsel would be the only real signing that will get me excited, and still I think that money could have gone into getting us a proper creative CM who's a natural orchestrator in the centre of midfield, something that Witsel simply isn't

Like I said in the other thread, Ibra could be the only redeeming factor of this mercato and even that is looking like a major longshot atm. But without him I can only see us getting a EL spot, even if we sign Witsel and Romagnoli