A couple of players will definitely come. Hopefully they're quality.

I wish we hadn't spent those 20 million on Bertolacci, and instead added 10 more and signed Witsel right away.

Bertolacci didn't impress me at all yesterday. He didn't do anything remarkable or to take not of.

Agreed, so far he's done nothing to dither my opinion of him that he's another Bonaventura. An in-betweener who's a good player but nothing special. Reliable but won't really make a huge difference to our overall gameplay

From what I've seen of him he's a Makelele type. Clean, simple passes, reliable in possession and the kind of midfielder who's always available. He's a deeper version of Bona but more efficient. And clearly that fits Miha's vision for the team so I'm happy to go with it.

Wasn't Makelele a pure anchor DM?

I see nothing that indicates Bertolacci is anywhere near that type of player.

I think he's mostly a 2-way player. He's good on both sides of the ball, just like Bonaventura, but still, the problem is that he doesn't really add all that much to our midfield. Had we spent what he was actually worth, I'd say he'd have been a smart purchase that gives us added depth in our midfield and more quality than Muntari or Essien ever did. But we spent 20m on him, and for that kind of money I'd expect more from a player

Makelele was one of the best in his positions and few did it better than him. Bertolacci is a regular run of the mill midfielder

De Jong is much more similar to Makelele.

Actually I'd argue if he's another Bonaventura it's exactly what our midfield needs, aside a creative spark. Monto's absolute rot, De Jong's a destroyer, but we don't have a clean and efficient space player who can be relied on for neatness and tidiness.

But Bona has massive limitations and I don't see those with Berto.

As for 'that kind of money' - you forget the bit about young players costing way more than they once did.

I mean this with respect but you seem to be stuck in 2005 where players costing 20M were basically world class. That doesn't happen now.

An ordinary player of quality costs that, and world class is now 50M upwards.

This is a big issue - we're now dabbling in the transfer market seriously for the first time in what feels like years, but some fans haven't adjusted to, effectively, inflation. What once would cost us 5M now costs four times that.

And it makes you think we're signing rubbish at over inflated prices, when the truth is a decent quality player costs a ludicrous amount.

What I am saying is stop using the 'value for money' card - it doesn't exist for players under about 25. You pay over the odds and that's the only way to get the players you want.

For 25m Barca bought Rakitic and Real bought Kroos.

I'm not saying we could get that kind of quality player in because Barca and Real are what they are and we cannot compete with that, but you can make smarter purchases with that kind of money

And sorry, but inflation or not, at best Bertolacci is worth 10 to 13m, because even in today's market that's what he's worth because he can't even be considered a great player, let alone top quality.

You're seriously overestimating Berto's qualities. When I say he's Bonaventura level, I don't just mean in terms of the type of player he is, but also quality level. And seriously, how can you make an assessment on Bona's shortcomings vs, Bertolacci's when we've only really seen him play for 90 minutes over 2 friendly games? He was decent vs Inter and very quiet vs Real.

Actually based on those 2 games, I can easily make a case that he is an average to good player, but they're not enough to make an assessment either way. We're not saying he's not good, but so far he hasn't shown us anything to make us think differently than we did when we signed him. Who knows, he could turn into the next Marchisio, but so far nothing indicates that, and as of right now, 20m is just too much for him

I agree with Han. If Bonaventura cost us €6 million, Bertolacci is worth €12 million, max. Roma completely played us for fools and we fell for it. And looks like we're being played again with Romagnoli.

Also, no wonder Zenit are asking €35 million for Witsel, when they think these guys (us) paid €20 million for a nobody like Bertolacci.

Galliani just loves digging his own grave.

Yep

Same thing with paying out the 8m for Adriano

Napoli offered 28M for Romagnoli. It was rejected.

Guess we're not the only fools then?

Berto has an equivalent career to Kondogbia, including number of caps.

Yet you're ready to regale Geoff as the next Makelele while discarding Berto as a piece of filth even though the latter outplayed the former in the ICC.

Yep, apparently we're not.

Italy's options in midfield are threadbare at best, France on the other hand have an abundance of riches. Pogba will always come in ahead of him there anyway.

I never regaled Kondogbia as anything just that he's a very good player with high potential to be a great one in the future. And certainly one who has a higher threshold than Bertolacci.

And OMG, please stop mentioning the ICC game as a basis for this argument. It was 2 friendly games that had no meaning, Bertolacci was far from great in either appearance. I'm not basing my opinion of him on that as it's simply not enough. I'm prepared to give him a chance but so far he's shown that he's not the type of player we were really desperate for, which was a creator. However, this in no way means that I think he's rubbish, just not what we really needed

I'm baffled. Can you please explain how such a figure is reached? Or is it based on your assumptions?

France...have an embarrassment of riches?! Anywhere?!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Too deadpan, please, no more, my sides can't take it

Wait. You're being serious?



Then OMG stop rolling your eyes



Were we dismissing last year's ICC too? Yes, I think you said the same thing then. 3-0 to Olympiakos, 5-1 to City and 2-0 to Liverpool.

Sure friendlies have no meaning?

The 10 to 13m?

Um based on the fact that he only had one decent season at Genoa, and is just a decent player who won't make a huge impact on our midfield?

Strootman was bought for 15m, Vidal for 19m, Pjanic for 10m, Hernanes for 21m, Kovacic for 10m.

All these happened just 2 or 3 years ago, not a decade like Danny said where I was still stuck in. And they're all better than Bertolacci, by a good distance!

I swear if he goes onto become an Italy legend and we didn't sign him I'll be pointing the finger angrily at those whining about the price.

Pogba, Matuidi, Cabaye, Gonolans, Kondogbia, Valbuena

vs Italy's Veratti, Marchisio, Parolo, Bertolacci, Soriano, Bonaventura


Yeah... I can see how competition for places is exactly the same...


Can't


We also won the TIM trophy and won against Juve in some other friendly in August...

I think they're all ultimately warm up games, and when you're playing against the opposing club's Primavera you can't really make a proper assessment

You forgot Florenzi, Candreva and De Rossi. I really don't think France have a better midfield.

Candreva is usually used in the attack, but that's not saying much, I think he's an average player at best. Looks good with Lazio but usually bad for Italy

Yeah, forgot Florenzi because he wasn't picked in the last few games, De Rossi either (has he been injured?)

Also think De Rossi has majorly regressed in these last few years or so.

Pogba, Matuidi, Cabaye vs De Rossi, Verratti, Marchisio

Picking the best trio of both lots

Both have obvious weaknesses and both have a young ultra talented player. Still think the France on is better overall. I think Pogba is simply ahead of Verratti atm and Matuidi is simply ahead of the De Rossi of today

And this coming from a major Azzurri fan, but even I have to admit that the quality of the nazionale has plummeted in recent years

I disagree. I think Italy's trio you put is better.

Valbuena is as much a midfielder as Insigne haha. I think Italy most definitely has the edge in midfield, especially when it comes to depth. If you consider Pirlo a part of that group as well, at least through all of the most recent big tournaments, the Italian case is even stronger. That's before we get into the shortcomings of Kondogbia's rivals like Cabaye who has been poor since leaving Newcastle.

So now you discard the players you forgot to mention? Han, I really think you're wrong on this one. France might have in Pogba what Italy lacks of, but if you look at the options and selection overall, Italy has the edge. It's just that you know these players in and out, while the French look to you better because you're not so familiar with them. Or do you think only Candreva and DDR have been sleepwalkers for some time now, while Cabaye and Gonalons only do marvelous things?

You might be right there about the French. I know the Italian players much better and I watch Serie A regularly and every Azzurri game that's played, whether that's a qualifier or just a friendly. So that might construe how I view things given how utterly sh!t they've been playing for a while now

Marchisio and Verratti are awesome players, no doubt about that. But De Rossi just hasn't been anywhere near as good as he was a few years ago. Still I think the French NT has more quality when you look at the entire midfield as a whole and not just the most likely starting trio. I mean once you remove Verratti from Italy's mid, it looks very average. You could do the same with France and remove Pogba and I don't think the drop would be as severe.

And Candreva? What can one say about him? The most one dimensional player I've ever seen, Cerci has even more natural talent than this guy. I admit tha for Lazio he looks good, but for Italy, he's always really average and doesn't add much of anything to their game.

Also, if we're going to count Candreva, then we might as well count Greizman, Ribery and Fekir who all can be listed as mids being that they are wingers/AMs but they all play in attack.

@milanbuf, I don't think Pirlo will be involved much from here on out. He's not playing in Italy anymore which already effects Conte's decision making. He hasn't officially retired but I think he's gone to the US to relax and still get to play these last few years. He certainly won't be involved in the next Euros.

Yes, I know. My point was that he has been an integral part of the Azzuri midfield up until very recently and as a result his presence has had a direct effect on the number of midfield places in the squad. This in turn effects the number of caps Bertolacci has earned to this point.

I really don't think Pirlo effected Bertolacci's place in the NT squad. It's just that he's only just last season had his break out where he got noticed. Also there have been plenty of other Italian mids taking up spots who are far from great, like Parolo for example, Aquilani, Diamanti etc. So Pirlo being there or not doesn't change the fact that up until last season he wasn't putting in the performances that made either Conte or Prandelli before him pick Bertolacci over those less than stellar names

It's simply a matter of numbers. Pirlo was an automatic selection. That leaves one less midfield squad place. The fact that there are a number of decent but not great Italian midfielders in his way further strengthens the point that he's had more competition to deal with. Yes, he should be able to outshine the aforementioned players but he's young, wasn't on the biggest stage in Genoa, and all of those players have better name recognition and previous relationships with the NT coaching staff. Now that he's on a bigger stage at Milan it's up to him to make an impact and make sure Conte can't justify leaving him off the squad.

First off, he can no longer be considered a young player by footballing standards. He's 24, which means that by this time you're either established or you're not. All of the really good players for the Azzurri who've had long careers with the NT were already established NT players by then. Sure there are cases for late bloomers but it's not like Bertolacci has been fighting for a spot in the NT for a while now.

Also, every country has a good amount of mid-level range players like the ones I mentioned. So that's not really a good excuse for Bertolacci not getting in yet, vs why Kondogbia hasn't. France has guys like Rabiot for example who is a good player but isn't even considered for the NT

Also important to note that Kondogbia is younger.

I don't buy that first statement at all. There are plenty of players that establish themselves at the national level past age 24. Especially for a nation like Italy. You're moving the goal post. Where does the requirement he have a long NT career come into this? It's not unusual for a player to make a jump in quality or form in his early twenties. If he doesn't make the Euro or World Cup rosters then we'll know he's not living up to expectations. Until then you can't really argue that he's not part of the national team set up.

Maybe its just because I'm more knowledgeable on Italian players from watching Serie A but I definitely think that there are more of those midrange, decent but not great, and often flawed but still useful types of midfielders available for selection for Italy than France. That simply leaves more bodies for Bertolacci to compete with and he has to play to a higher level for attention. Perhaps some one else who watches more Ligue 1 can weigh in on that point.

He's 24 and has 2 caps for Italy, how can you argue that he is part of the set-up? I agree that it's all conjecture on our part, he could have a great season with us and be an automatic choice for Conte, but until now he simply hasn't been able to do that, even if there are a slew of average players in Italy to compete against for the other spots.

Toulalan, Cabella, Gourcuff, Mavuba, N'Zonzi, Grenier, Imbula, Sissoko, Coquelin, Flamini, Rabiot, Schneiderlin are all imo viable options that come in after those first choices. These are all off the top of my head, I'm sure there are more but since like you I'm not that familiar with Ligue 1 I can't name anymore

Maybe not all of them play the same role as Kondogbia, but they could just as easily take his place.

He's had three caps actually. In Italy's last 5 games he started three and was on the bench once. If we only look at the six euro qualifiers played so far he has started one and was on the bench twice. It is worth noting that his involvement was weighted toward the recent games and since he has been getting more time Aquilani hasn't even gotten to the bench. He's clearly in the set up now but he's not a critical component and he needs to impress over the next year to guarantee a spot on the final squad.

I'll concede that it looks like the midfields are fairly even talent wise but by no means does France have an embarrassment of riches and they aren't clearly superior to Italy in that department.

This is gone too far. You guys noticed how arbitrary your statements are?

Han, you made a selection of all kinds of players, from completely finished to completely green/not assessed ones. Comparing France and Italy is valid. The WC aside, Italy is doing considerably better in the past 10 years then France. I think up until now Italy had a better overall team and a better midfield.

Now, what will happen in the future is not so certain, because both sides have too many fresh faces that still need to be assessed properly. We really should cool off and let time take us into a certain direction here.

Other then that, football is no science. Han, you're constantly trying to take variables, trends, common occurrences and so on and turn them into hard facts. But it isn't working that way. Sure, it can give you a positive insight. But you tend to hold onto it like it's the one and only direction.

Take what you said about 24 being a margin for established NT players for example. You said all good players, but you forgot the best: Andrea Pirlo, started being a first XI pick in 2004 or 2005, with about 25 years of age.

So, let's wait and see, I think it's the best direction we can take.

Btw when do we play Bayern?

Well said.



Tomorrow, i.e. 4 August.

7:45UK I believe

Yeah..just the normal night time CL games. It's 9:45 for me usually.

How does my opinion of players' quality have much to do with trends, variables, etc, etc?

It is my opinion that it is harder for Kondogbia to break into the French NT first 11 than it is for Bertolacci. Why? Because Pogba is the guy standing in his way. That's not a trend or a prediction, it is a fact.

I also said that there are exceptions when it comes to when players break through a NT set-up. Pirlo's case is very unique as well as before Carlo really found him the position he's now known for he was struggling at Inter

Like I said before, this is all conjecture never denied that. But seriously, do you see anywhere near that talent in Bertolacci?

Anyway, back on topic.

Line-up for the Bayern game

(4-3-1-2): Lopez; De Sciglio, Zapata, Ely, Antonelli; Bonaventura, De Jong, Bertolacci; Honda; Bacca, Adriano.

Have to say that looks pretty good

Also, interesting to see Miha using Berto so much in these friendlies

Personally can't see him starting him in Serie A, but I get the impression that he's studying him seriously and is using all these friendlies to do just that

****, forgot about it!

This is what I have been talking about all summer. Not having someone in the midfield who can keep a cool head, calm things down and help the rest by helping to keep possession for longer than a few seconds.

The players already looking wiped out from chasing shadows throughout this half. And when we do get the ball we can't make a string of 3 successful passes because we have no outlet in our mid

Lol, Zapata... Never learns

wow what a direr game...do we have a midfield

lump it forward to our small guys in attack rinse reverse...

pass between the defence back to goalkeper lump it foward...

At 30 minutes if i had'nt seen the lines up i would not have known bertolacci was even on the pitch like Marchiso for Juve he turns up and goes missing..

In his defence he has no one to pass to at all for how ever hard our midfield is working they just can't get three or four passes together..

This being all said the Bundesliga does start in 10 days time but meh we should be in there frame of mind and playing as well at this point..

Well, this is very worrisome. Milan look exactly like the team last season. Zero initiative, zero adaptability, no tactical plan, no offensive.

What's there to say. I knew from moment one Inzaghi wasn't our only problem. Dare I say he wasn't our main problem. And Mihajlovic most probably isn't our solution, but I'll give him time.

But seriously, we need to get rid of some awful players here and replace them with more capable ones. Bonaventura, Montolivo and Honda are all mediocre or sub-par level players we don't need all together. One of them is enough. I'm starting to fear that Bertolacci will soon be in the same group.

If you're in a situation like that just lump it forward! Don't just run straight into a cul de sac like an idiot or try some elaborate fancy pass that will get you into an even sh!ttier situation than the one you were in!


This game has heavily underlined what our biggest issue is imo. No creative quality in midfield. The players you listed imo are all Jack of all Trades type players. Decently good at many things but not great at one, the only player who is in our midfield is De Jong. This is what I've meant about Bertolacci, I beleive he's a fairly good player, but certainly not what we desperately have needed. And that's why I'm so highly critical of the fee we paid

Also, I disagree about Pippo, he was absolutely terrible, probably one of the most clueless coaches that I have watched in my football watching lifetime. I think there are obvious improvements that Miha has made, and this coming from someone who has been very critical of his appointment

One other major thing, I'm makibg a point about our midfield with this game, but we also have to note that this is Bayern, who are not only miles ahead of us quality wise but are also ahead of us in their pre-season prep. We're not going to be facing anyone near their level in the league not even Juve. So even though it's a game where our biggest weakness (midfield) is hughlighted and it's important to not ignore this huge shortcoming in our squad, most Serie A side won't push us to the extreme that Bayern are

true that!

What obvious improvement did you notice? I see the same mentality, the same concept-less team, the same lack of idea.

Yes, Pippo wasn't the right man, sure. But thing is, I see squat of improvement here. Did we even make a single shot on goal? Did we have a single correct flow of attack? Naah man, I know this is Bayern here (even if they played maybe 50% of their potential) but anyway, I don't see a step forward here.

And Alex demonstrates this footballing basic for Bayern's third