I don't think you can define the exact contribution of a player. But if we were to completely delete Ibra's goals from games and assume that nobody scores in his place (a bit unrealistic since we're taking off goals scored from penalties also - which players could easily score in his place) then we'd lose 11 points. He scored 4 in 1 goals wins (8 points gain) and 3 in draws (3 points gain).

As I said, I don't think it's realistic to just delete all of one players goals and assume nobody else would do anything, but even then it's just 11 points.


I said even if he wins the title you would complain - which I then backed up with proof.




That's what good coaches do, build the team around their best player! You have the team play to their strengths, doing otherwise is silly. Which is why I am 100% behind us playing 3 forwards. Stretches the defense and allows Balotelli more space. Playing with 2 forwards, especially with SES who drops further from goal, will basically mean he's more easy to control.

Again, all I am saying is he deserves some credit. Your idea that he deseres no credit at all is ridiculous. No coach deserves 0% credit.

Conte builds his team around Pirlo to success - genius. Allegri builds his team around Ibrahimovic to success - too reliant. Incredible logic.

I think you got this idea of 0% credit simply from my displeasure of this season. Were before I was just grumbling a lot, this season Allegri as just crossed too many lines and I never felt this level of hate for a coach before in my time as a Milan supporter. And that includes a list of some of the worst of the worst coaches we've had. Remember the bleak days before Carlo took over.

I just have never given him the type of credit that you and a few other around here have.

When you look at Ibra's contribution in a season then you have to look at the big picture, I told you goals you gave me the numbers for those. Thanks. How many assists did he rack up each season. How many players in this team simply played off of him and this season have suffered badly without him there?

And no, Allegri didn't just build the team around Ibra, Allegri turned this team into something that completely relied on Ibra to function. That's not what a great coach does. When Sheva was here did we rely on him so severely that when he wasn't on the pitch we couldn't even form an attacking move? But was Carlo guilty of then turning Kaka into a crutch that the team also heavily relied upon?

What you're saying is completely different. Every big club has a big star player. Real have Cristiano, Barca Messi, Man U RVP, Juve Pirlo, but do these teams cease to function when this player is not on the pitch? And this is what we essentially experianced this season when Ibra was no longer there, we ceased to function as an attacking unit and as a defensive unit without Silva. Simply because the tactics were never based on the team but on the individuals bailing us out

And I would just like you to watch our last few games over again, bar the first 45 against Udine, and tell me where there was any "stretching" of the play going on.

All we have in attack is one big huge conjestion, both in the middle because the mids end up pushing up a lot and most importantly on the wing where the 2 out wide in attack stay hugging the touchline waiting for the pass forward from the FB with no where to run to aside from the touchline.

2 up front with Bojan then coming up and running into the channels makes more sense for the players we HAVE. There is no point playing such a wide 4-3-3 formation when your forwards cannot play in those posiitions

I got this idea because you have, repeatedly, said he deserves no (=0%) credit.


Which is why I said it's impossible to define contribution like that.

If you remove any goals, assists and play from Ibra from that season. Would we be a much worse team? Yes, because that's basically saying "How would we have fared with 10 men". I do think that some players played off him, but that's part of what I've been saying - guys like Boateng aren't that good. He and Nocerino looked great playing off Ibra and now they don't look half as good. Does anybody give Allegri credit for putting this Portmouth and Palermo player into a system which makes them look great? No. People just assume that's how good they are (despite no previous) and then criticise Allegri when they aren't playing at that level anymore.


If you took the best defender and best attacker out of these teams then yes they would certainly struggle. Difference is these coaches at least have decent replacements.


Yes, the tactics were built around our strength, why should we not revolve our attacking play around Ibra? Of course we should.

Have I PROBABLY said this for this season? Most likely yes. For the Scudetto winning season? Never. The first half of the season was down to Ibra bailing us out. Our tactic basically revolved around longballs to him. Second part of the season Allegri got the defence and midfield with Van Bommel working like a well oiled machine. Seedorf/Pirlo, Boateng were clicking in midfield, and even when were were playing without Ibra we were looking good. We played some big games and literally walked those games with a swagger that I hadn't seen from Milan in a while. THAT is what I attrbute to the coach's work. When a team works well as a unit even without an individual.

I've always given him credit, so the title goes 40% Allegri, 60% Individual brilliance from players

Last season though, where had that cohesion that he had worked for in those months I mentioned gone? Once again completely reliant on Ibra, playing the most static midfield compositions available which simply forced us into the long ball system. Last season he had problems with a lot of injuried but the squad he had covered for it. Once we lost Silva we cumbled out of 3 competitions in the span of a few weeks. And this is was what I mean by having a team that cannot function without an individual or two.


You can't say you're playing with 10 men, you stick another player there instead, for example you have Pazzini instead of Ibra. Has Pazzini single handedly won us any points this season aside from the Bologna games?

Boateng and Nocerino are both good players, Nocerino had been playing great for Palermo before coming to Milan and having Ibra, his goal scoring is what caught the eyes but he's more then just that. While Prince was always played out of position with Milan aside from the last few weeks where he's been good as a CM. The fact that he managed to play in the AM position is undoubtedly thanks to Ibra, but you can't simply say that he's not a good player without Ibra there. It's just an unfair observation


Remove Vidic and RVP from United, would that have pushed them into the relegation zone at any point in time during the season? And it's not like Real, United, Barca have any decent backups for the defensive positions, even their starting duo aren't so good. Rio, Pique, Mascherano, Ramos, Pepe. Not what I call a stellar bunch. Sure they have more wealth in attacking options but still there would be a significant drop in quality should a player like Messi be lost, but they still win games easily simply because they don't just rely on that one player


I didn't say don't build your team around your best player. I'm saying using that player as a crutch was the problem. And if that crutch is taken away then we can't walk anymore.

and this is where that falls apart because you just don't know what would happen. Pazzini may have been awful and scored 0 goals, he may have been brilliant and scored 20. Who knows.

For starters Pazzini is nowhere near as good as Ibra. Then Pazzini is playing in a lesser team to what Ibra did. Not to mention he's had far more limited opportunities in comparison. Who knows how Pazzini would've done in that team. He had a pretty prolific 10-11 season as far as I know.

He was terrible with Inter last season, and he still had the likes of Sneijder behind him. And Aside from Cassano you really can't say that the team has changed much in terms of who supplies the strikers

I think every striker has a bad year though. Pazzini has mostly had very good goal returns though considering before Inter he'd not played for any particularly great teams.

I think we've been round and round enough on Pazzini, Allegri, etc. though.