Difficult to know where to start - it's been a crushingly disappointing 24 hours. On this forum there are huge splits in terms of where the blame lies. If indeed there is any real blame.

Last summer of 2011 we had the real potential, having won the league and secured entry to the CL, to enhance the squad with real quality. Invest in the team and make us elite again. We got Aquilani, Sharrawy, Mexes, Nocerino and Muntari.

None of these are achingly poor players, but they were hardly the marquee quality we needed - and despite an honourable showing against Barca, we didn't win the CL and in the league we've been extremely inconsistent.

It's very difficult to know where to start - but the one critical change we need is squad investment. We do have very good players, wonderful players, but not enough of them. When you look at the top clubs they have at least 20 top top players - City, United, Barca, Real, Bayern - big world class squads designed to cope with injuries, suspensions, and a genuine challenge for the top honours.

We don't have that. We do have the CL again next season, and the default money which comes from that, but Silvio, with a bit of time on his hands these days, really does have to make some big signings. The fans need a boost, and frankly many millions require spending.

As for Allegri - as long as I have been a Milan fan fellow Rossoneri have never agreed on the manager - from Carlo, to Leo, to Allegri - all have been 'wrong' in the eyes of the fans no matter what they won.

Problem is a manager is only one man - 100% of fans are never going to agree with you, and even winning a league might not be enough to prove your doubters wrong.

So I don't know where I stand on the boss.

But I do know this squad needs reinforcement of the highest quality - guys who will cost a fortune but be definite starters and take us up a level.

When Max actually gets investment and "fails" then I'll join others in saying he has to go. But as things stand he, like Leo, hasn't exactly been given players that have league title quality in them. Juventus will bring in a goal-scorer in the summer and they'll basically have no weak link, we need to sure we don't either.

Having the best squad in the league should be enough to at least win that. Juve have 15 draws FFS!! Had we won at least 1 or 2 of our head-to-head games against the top sides in the league than we would have won this title. That's the main difference here. Allegri failed in all the big encounters, and those cannot all be blamed on injuries

As Conte proved.

Do you think Ancelotti should've been sacked 4/5 years before he was then?

First of all we must look into the injury problems... we can't afford to lose our key players for such lengthy spells and expect to win the league and do well in CL as well. it's just not doable.

Lol, Juve have the best squad in the league? Really? Allegri has by far the best squad, the best individuals and the most experianced set of players in the league. And yet he failed big time. What Conte did is turn those players who might not all be great into a real group instead of what we had, a bunch of individuals wearing the same shirt. Because that is what this team has been turned into under Allegri. Juve played the entire season as a cohesive unit which made up for a lot of deficiancies that they had in quality. While Allegri couldn't make the quality at his disposal count. Instead he showed a stubborn streak and an unwillingness to compromise throughout

I tell you what Juve have better than us, and it's certainly not the squad, but the man in charge of that squad.

2 CL titles buy a person time. A league title won because Silvio brought in Ibra at the beginning of the season can only go so far

Pretty sure the 2nd CL title wasn't until 2007 right? Why wasn't he sacked before that season?

And yes, Juve had the best squad in the league, by some considerable distance. Then again, I'm talking to a person who thinks Mexes is World class and all Juve's defenders are mediocre.

When have I EVER said that Mexes is World Class? I dare you to find a quote of me saying exactly that! Saying that he's by far the better option and should have been picked ahead of Yepes is not saying he's WC, it's simple logic And lol @ you saying Juve have by far the better squad!! Trying to make Allegri look like the martyr with the sh!tty squad and Juve Barca 2.0 that we just could not deal with. How funny. I'm laughing my @ss off!

Juve's only really great defender is Chiellini. Barzagli playing out of his skin couldn't have been predicted since he's been... uh... I don't know... cr@p his entire footballing carreer Comapre that to having Nesta, Silva and Mexes to choose from. Yep, poor, poor Allegri, just couldn't keep up with Juve...

1 title, 1 Coppa, 1 Italian Super Cup, 1 CL, 1 European Super Cup before that CL. So I'd say that he bought some good time for himself with that. In his second season he lead us to the CL and Coppa. Not too shabby. Allegri led us to a weak Serie A title. You want to talk about a really great squad. Juve 04/05, 05/06 was one of the best around. Now that was a great squad not this Juve. Who had Chiellini, a bunch of sterile strikers and a good midfield. How shocking that we were able to keep up with them until yesterday. Allegri is a genius, I should consider this second place finish as good as the title

I kinda hoped we could discuss this without squabbling among ourselves.

I know we're not going to all agree on the way forward but let's try to put yesterday behind us and think rationally about the way we need to progress.

Slagging each other off is not going to help much.

I find kurt as a good outlet to release all this Allegri frustration I have

The way forward for me is simple.

Remove Allegri from his post, get someone with some fresh ideas in who's willing to compromise and maybe even introduce a new system rather than this wholly outdated 4-3-1-2 (which we do not even have the players for to employ)

Renew with Nesta and VB (if he wants to), let all the others go

Bring in some new quality players to address the problems that we do truely have instead of buying another unneeded striker

Attempt to fix the mess we have on our hands with the medical team. Going into next season anticipating another injury nightmare is certainly not the way to go. Although how many of those injuries can be attributed to Allegri's training methods and how many can be attributed to the medical staff is yet to be seen

My bad, the post I had in mind was by Jack, not you.

So Ancelotti won 5 trophies in 5 years, Max has won 2 in 2 years. What's the problem?

As for the Juve squad Carlo faced, nah, it had a very good spine, but the rest of the starters + bench were hardly World class.

So you're saying that this Juve team is great and we just couldn't keep up with them but Fabio's Juve was just... Fine.

Let me remind you. Buffon, Canna, Thuram, Zambro, Viera, Emerson, Camo, Nedved, Trez, Ibra, DP.

Yep, that's a sh!tty first 11 if I ever saw one...

And the backups, well it's not like this Juve have any decent players past the first 11, all of them are mostly fillers. Mid-level quality players. The 2 teams simply cannot be compared. That Juve team was World Class, this one is decent but they have a great midfield, thanks in part (1/3), to us. How great and noble of us.

No. I'm saying this Juve squad is better than this Milan squad, especially with the injuries we had.

That Milan squad was better than that Juve squad.

That doesn't mean this Juve squad was better than that Juve squad. I didn't say that. It's all relative.

The Xmas tree isn't outdated, but I do agree we probably don't have a proper trequartista to utilise it properly.



Get rid of the entire squad bar VB and Sandro!?



I agree we need more top class players.



Actually, I remember complaints about the medical team when Carlo was the manager. We always seem to have had this issue.

Sure with the injuries to half the squad (14 at one point) this Juve side is better (fully fit for the entire season with the exception to 2 or 3 games)

But in which ever way you wish to look at it, we have the far better squad. And when we had a lot of injuries our squad had the neccassary depth to cover that, no not every backup is top class but considering we were playing the backup of the backups at one point, it's not that bad.

Can you imagine the current Juve squad with the type of problems we had plus CL? They'd probably do as well as they did last season, 7th place

Can't agree we have a far better squad than Juve. Can't agree at all. We have a very good squad, but Juve's is either equal or superior.

We have too many pieces of dead wood like Gattuso, Bonera, Ambro.

But they're not part of the main squad, they're barely even backups as it stands

If you match up the 2 squad sheets. It's clear that ours is clearly better. We have the better individual players. They have a better midfield than us imo, but other than that it's not even close

You can't compare a front 2 of Matri and Quagliarella, to Ibra and Cassano or Robinho. Or CB pairing of Barzagli and Chiellini to Thiago and Nesta/Mexes

VB and Boateng are great as well but their 3 in midfield have been amazing this season, while ours has been injured for most of it

Than of course they have guys like Pepe, De Ceglie, Boriello, Elia, Giaccherini. These guys are barely mid-table quality. Who have played beyond what they're truely capable of this season

Our first XI is twice as good as their first XI. Can't compare the likes of Ibra, Silva, Pato, Nesta, Bommel, Boateng, Nocerino and Cassano with what they have. Even Mexes. That's 9/11 world class players in some of the most important positions all over the pitch. Juventus can't match that if they tried.

They matched it by playing an entire season as one single unit. That's how they remained unbeaten all season. While our team has basically been a mess all season. From injuries, to some ridiculous tactical choices. We've been through the wringer

I agree on the first 11 thing, I don't agree on the squad.

Outwith our first 11 our squad is rather weak.

True enough. We never were a cohesive unit, from day one of the last season. The last time I remember Milan playing as a team was when Antonini scored that goal in the final match day (with Leonardo as coach). The moment we signed Ibra, he broke the thin thread of unity with his me-or-nobody attitude.

It became more evident this season, but even during the last season you could see Pato not playing well with Ibra, Ambrosini and Gattuso showing discontent, so on and so forth. You win as a a team, or you rarely win at all.



Yes, well that was my point, our first team is miles ahead of theirs in terms of experience, NT appearances, talent, potential, application and even names. I haven't even included Robinho in it, that makes it 10 top quality players. Outside the eleven, I agree, our squad is old, weak, and dare I say even senile.

I actually think theirs is worse. The fact is playing in a team can make you look better than you actually are. You know enough examples and don't need me to tell you about it.

For me, and I'm sorry to flog a dead horse, it comes down to the fact that the Juve team was actually formed with a coherent philosophy and strategy. The amount of times Conte switched tactics is amazing. 4-3-3...4-4-1-1, 3-4-3...amazing.

Contrast this to ours. 4-3-1-2, when we're down and we're desperate switch to 3-4-4 and pray that the quality of our forwards makes a difference. I mean wut??!!! Really? When I'm ticking down the clock, I push Abate up..and ask him to attack more??! W00t...epic win for strategy!

Yesterday was an example of how when we actually faced a team that could pound for pound match us in individual quality..we faltered.

After a long time in Serie A, we actually had something as skilful as Ibra+ Robino + Boateng --> (Milito+Sneijder+Alvarez)....their mid-field had as much muscle as ours and a little extra brains..and their defence what it lacked in the centre made up for on the flanks.

Our weaknesses are published, static on the ball, non-existent on the flanks and new defence means problems on set pieces.

I'm not gonna get into it...just read the piece on zonalmarking.net and see if there was anything new you didn't expect.

But I criticise the team and Max...this doesn't mean it's the end. It wasn't a hopeless season.. (A Zach parallel is not needed, Zach ended up 7th)..but we have to smell the coffee now.

You cannot just think that was 'one of those seasons' and hope that the next time will be better.

Juve WILL strengthen. Like it or not, that shirt of theirs has pride equal to ours and they will not find difficulty getting takers.

Inter strengthening is a no-brainer.

And expect a few surprises from the lesser Serie A teams. There's always an upstart who runs with the big boys in Serie A. Every season.

And I'm not even gonna bring in CL into it.

If Carlo stays, and the Qataris put in the bankroll...we're looking at competition.

Enough said about Man City and Man Utd and Chelsea who will all be looking to get stronger.

And Madrid and Barca and Bayern..oh boy!

We've been thread bare throughout the entire season yet still pushed the race until the second to last game of the season. I think that says enough in regards to our quality in depth

Had it happened to Juve. Do you honestly see them winning the title?

I can't agree there, at all. Certainly not based on this seasons performances.

Would you rather have this seasons Pato over Matri? Vucinic? Hell, even Borriello!

MvB, Nocerino and Boateng over Pirlo, Vidal and Marchisio? Not sure I'd take a single 1 of them over theirs to be honest.

I was speaking potential wise, Kurt, you are talking a real-life scenario. I'd have a fit and firing Pato ahead of Matri, Borriello and maybe even Vucinic combined. But we all know how that turns out, and how the party is spoiled by injuries. Saying Juventus' first XI is better (or even equal) than ours would be selling Milan players very short.

At the start of this season our players were kings of Serie A, recently crowned champions. Where were Juventus?

Because he managed to achieve another CL final in 2005, which we should have won, and a semi-final in 2006, in which we were robbed. Under Carlo we never really gave that much importance to the league, because we were rather unstoppable in Europe. 3 finals and a semi-final in 5 years is an outstanding achievement.



Actually, Ancelotti won 8 trophies in 5 years (2002-2007), namely:

Serie A: 2004
Coppa Italia: 2003
Supercoppa Italiana: 2004
CL: 2003, 2007
UEFA SuperCup: 2003, 2007
FIFA Club World Cup: 2007

Then that's unacceptable. Winning Serie A > doing well in CL. He has no excuses to even give up on eiterh given the squad he had at his disposal.


We were talking pre-2007.

So in reality they've done about the same. Ancelotti won 2 meaningful trophies in 4 years, Allegri has won 1 in 2 years. Which was my point, nobody wanted him sacked then did they?

If his name was not Allegri and was Maldini or Van Basten, I have a feeling people would not be talking of a sacking.

Well...I don't know if it's an English thing, but you'll just have to accept that a lot of us have a different priority.

Secondly, if you saw how Carlo's Milan played pre-2007 and how we actually got screwed (I still think of Istanbul and that SF against Barca)...when it counted...we wouldn't have wanted him fired.

Because pre-2007 you could actually see the team making changes when it was weak. Post 2007, is when the **** hit the fan. Emerson, Olivera, Brocchi....to think that the best transfer handed to him besides Pato was Favalli is rather embarassing.

Can't agree. The Serie A is worthless compared to the Champions League. And we also must consider the fact Juve had a fantastic team back then, and we always came in second to them. So, whilst they were winning in Italy but failing in Europe, we were doing the opposite. Fair trade, I'd say.



Because under Carlo we played some amazing football? Because under him we were one of, if not the strongest team in the world? Come on now!



That's absurd. I don't care what his name is, I care about what an awful coach he is.

Yeah, that's what I've been saying all along.

Do you not think we should've won more? I do, absoloutely. 1 league title in 7 years is totally unacceptable.

Have to say this post contradicts everything you've been saying. Allegri fucked up this, our performances were shite there, yet somehow to support your squad depth argument you're using the contrary notion that we did well this season.

But we achieved 3 CL finals and one semi-final in 5 years, which pretty much balances things out.

The medical/training staff/technique must be looked at. Signing big names just to see them injured for half of the season isn't going to do us any good.

If we had half the injuries we did this season, we would still be champs. Let's not over-react.

Also, Juve deserves a lot of credit for this season. Sure, they had 15 draws, but they never lost, and have only conceded 19* times all season. That's very impressive.



*20

I don't think a Final and SF really mean anything.

Anyways, I think we just disagree on the whole basis of this. For me a CL is only relevant if you qualify for it through winning the league title. Otherwise a league title > European Cup. But that's just my opinion like yours is yours.

I like how rational your posts are

How did we do well exactly? By Allegri's tacticaly masterstrokes, or by some inidividualistic brilliance from certain players?

Answer that and you'll have the answer to that post





I said all things considered, our squad depth still provided enough cover for us to still have options even when we barely had half the team fit. That should say enough in regards to the depth we have vs what Juve have. As for the reason why we still managed to do what we did, answer the question above

You're still not being entirely fair. We won the league last season, yet this season we've failed to do so. Are you trying to say, honestly, we won in spite of the boss, rather than because of him?

Are you basically taking all the credit away from Allegri and giving it solely to the players?

We're not Barca - there's an argument for this incredible team who Guardolia steered. We have a fairly good but not incredible team, ditto last year. But we won the Scudetto. Surely Allegri was part of that?



Juventus:

1 Italy GK Gianluigi Buffon (vice-captain)
3 Italy DF Giorgio Chiellini
4 Uruguay DF Martín Cáceres (on loan from Sevilla)
6 Italy DF Fabio Grosso
7 Italy MF Simone Pepe
8 Italy MF Claudio Marchisio
10 Italy FW Alessandro Del Piero (captain)
11 Italy DF Paolo De Ceglie
13 Austria GK Alexander Manninger
14 Montenegro FW Mirko Vučinić
15 Italy DF Andrea Barzagli
17 Netherlands MF Eljero Elia
18 Italy FW Fabio Quagliarella
19 Italy DF Leonardo Bonucci
20 Italy MF Simone Padoin
21 Italy MF Andrea Pirlo
22 Chile MF Arturo Vidal
23 Italy FW Marco Borriello (on loan from Roma)
24 Italy MF Emanuele Giaccherini
26 Switzerland DF Stephan Lichtsteiner
27 Serbia MF Miloš Krasić
28 Paraguay MF Marcelo Estigarribia
30 Italy GK Marco Storari
32 Italy FW Alessandro Matri
34 Italy MF Luca Marrone

25 players.

AC Milan:

1 Italy GK Marco Amelia
4 Netherlands MF Mark van Bommel
5 France DF Philippe Mexès
7 Brazil FW Alexandre Pato
8 Italy MF Gennaro Gattuso (vice-captain)
9 Italy FW Filippo Inzaghi
10 Netherlands MF Clarence Seedorf
11 Sweden FW Zlatan Ibrahimović
13 Italy DF Alessandro Nesta
14 Ghana MF Sulley Muntari (on loan from Internazionale)[42]
15 Algeria DF Djamel Mesbah
16 France MF Mathieu Flamini
18 Italy MF Alberto Aquilani (on loan from Liverpool)[43]
19 Italy DF Gianluca Zambrotta
20 Italy DF Ignazio Abate
21 Argentina FW Maxi López (on loan from Catania)[44]
22 Italy MF Antonio Nocerino
23 Italy MF Massimo Ambrosini (captain)
24 Sierra Leone MF Rodney Strasser
25 Italy DF Daniele Bonera
27 Ghana MF Kevin-Prince Boateng
28 Netherlands MF Urby Emanuelson
30 Italy GK Flavio Roma
32 Italy GK Christian Abbiati
33 Brazil DF Thiago Silva
37 Germany MF Alexander Merkel
52 Italy DF Mattia De Sciglio
57 Italy MF Mattia Valoti
70 Brazil FW Robinho
76 Colombia DF Mario Yepes
77 Italy DF Luca Antonini
92 Italy FW Stephan El Shaarawy
99 Italy FW Antonio Cassano
Nigeria FW Kingsley Umunegbu [45]

34 players.

We have 9 more than Juve. But how many of ours are dead wood or youth players? Juventus have a smaller squad, but overall a higher average quality of player. But that's just my opinion.

^^ I'm disappointed in Galliani. this guy is supposed to have 20+ years experience in what he's doing...

Juve's older players aren't also a 'burden' for lack of a better word. ADP has been important late in the season, Buffon is still a beast and Pirlo has been outstanding. Their 'mediocre' players have been huge for them too. Pepe has had an awesome season, Barzagli and Bonucci have made a great partnership when Chiellini has been moved left, Lichsteiner's been great. Matri + Vucinic have scored when it matters.

I'd rather have a very good squad overall, then a few World class players and then players who aren't good enough.

How is the quality better?

Half of those players have been cr@p for years. Granted they have all played out of their skins this season to do what they did. Guys like Pepe and Barzagli are players who I would never put the word 'quality' next to their name, and they were 2 of Juve's most important players this season. Do you expect these players to produce such performances next season and the one after that when they have to deall with even more fixtures?

I think you posting the 2 squads like that only magnifies what a huge motivator Conte is and what a huge failure this season has been for Allegri, as arguably we have an even better squad than last season.

As for last season's title, how many games did Ibra single handedly win for us?

As for the dead weight you speak of: Gattuso, Zambro, Pippo anf Flamini. All the others have proved crucial throughout the entire season. Our big squad enabled us to continue on when we had half the team injured.

We had Cassano, Boateng, Nesta, Mexes, Abate, Pato, Aquilani and VB injured all at the same time at one point. Imagine that happening to Juve no Chiellini, Barzagli, Lichtsteiner, Marchisio, Pirlo, Matri and Quagliarella. All being injured at the same time, and tell me that their squad would have been able to handle such a hit


I agree that those players did play the season of their life. They were never quality players, but the coach turned them into a really good team when they played together as a unit.

What you guys are doing, and I'll say this once again, is magnifying Conte's success into turning a bunch of decent players who got 7th last season into an unbeatable team

While Allegri on the other hand, with such a huge squad, made up of some of the best players around in their positions, sent out a disjointed team week in week out that usually got results due to moments of individualistic briliiance from a few players

Barzagli is actually a good defender. Bonucci is the mediocre one.

Barzagli was actually great this season, but when was he ever good before? Maybe a season or 2 in his Palermo days were decent but anything other than that he's been a big liability for his recent teams. He's just had the season of his carreer

Even Bonucci, who is even more mediocre than Barzagli turned in some huge performances for them this season.

Nah, Barzagli has always been a good defender. He just made the wrong decision when he signed for Wolfsburg. Should have stayed in Italy and made a name there.

I remember him at Palermo and he was nothing special. Maybe he was good on a good day but he's mostly a decent player who looks very good at the sort of teams like Palermo.

I think if he has a similar season to this one next season, it could be more telling.

His stint in the Bundesliga was nothing short of horiffic.

I kinda feel like I'm banging my head on a brick wall with you Han. You are very stubborn.

Well, Han's known as The Great Debater® in these parts, so no surprises there. He's the type of guy who loves presenting arguments and gets a kick out of discussing things. I wouldn't call him totally stubborn (he had budged before, I recall), but Han sure likes standing by and defending his viewpoint.

Why because I categorically and unequivocally disagree with the ridiculous notion that Juve have the better squad than ours?

The fact that we ran them to the second to final day while playing the backups of the backups at times says it all. Had Juve had to deal with such a situation they'd have ended up 7th for the third consecutive season.

Our starting 11, our rotation players, our depth in general is just better than theirs. Allegri made a million mistakes this season, and he's been by far one of the most infuriating aspects of the entire season, probably just slightly behind the relentless injuries, but I'm confident in saying that had he had the full team at his disposal throughout this entire season as Conte did, we'd have won the title.

Yes he still wouldn't have managed to comprise the cohesive unit that Conte did, but than again, with the quality at his disposal he wouldn't have needed to, just like last season.

I'm bringing up the fact that most of our games have been won due to individualistic brilliance, but had we won the title do you really think any one of us, especially me would care? F@ck no!! I'd forget the fact that he's been playing a brainless idiot for nearly 3 months straight, I'd forget the fact that Allegri simply refuses to utilise creative players and I'd forget how tactically rigid he is that he simply cannot seem to come up with a different system than the one he has in place. Had we been the team celebrating none of that would really matter. But we're not celebrating, we're left rueing the fact that we simply handed over this Scudetto to at disgusting team like Juve, who will most likely sew on a third star even if 2 of those titles were bought. So now that we've lost this title we simply have to analyse what went wrong. And the injuries certainly were a big factor, a massive factor in fact. But you can't ignore Allegri's role in this failure either.


I only don't budge when I know that viewpoint is correct. There is no way in hell that you can convince me that on paper, Juve have a better 11 and squad than us. Because that is just not true. And I stand by the statement that we threw away this Scudetto

Yes, my point exactly. While I too am in the camp that believes we have a better squad than Juventus (we were Italian champions up till just a few days back, people), the fact that you love debating stuff worth debating is known by almost everyone here for some time now. This squad thing is specific, your love for debating is general.

And frankly, I wouldn't have it any other way. It is a pleasure reading tons of posts every morning with breakfast.

I feel different, actually. Even if we had won, I just don't see any bright future in front of us with this joker as our coach. And that's what worries me the most. I honestly thought that if we'd lost the scudetto, Berlusconi would sack Allegri, so something good would come out of it. But now it looks like Allegri is due to stay for another season, and that is too worrisome. When I think of the fact that we might be playing with 3 DMs next season as well, Muntari being one of them, when I think of Emanuelson being played as AM, or our brilliant "long-ball-to-Ibra" strategy, I can't help but feel nauseous.

Maybe in the cold light of day I would feel that way. But had we won that title, I'm sure none of that would matter for a while, at least for me. and now we're stuck with him anyway so...

Maybe Montolivo willd have more luck with Allegri than Aqui did... Who knows. I'm going to try to be as hopeful as I can since we know it's pointless now. I'll give Allegri another season, hopefully something is done to fix the injury situation because even with all of Allegri's shortcomings we still have a pretty good squad barring 1 or 2 positions.

Juve will most likely only splash on a striker anyway