[Danny]

Every club has this, but as we know, Milan are not every club.

Basically the most illustrious teams in any club's history are usually what fans would describe as a class befitting the club's name. The standard they expect.

For Barca they will always expect Messi/Iniesta/Xavi/Ronaldinho/Eto'o type quality. Won't settle for less now. Man Utd expect Giggs, Van Persie, Ferdinand etc.

For us it's clearly the quality of Maldini, Baresi, Boban, Pirlo, old Kaka, Gullit, MVB etc etc.

Question is will we ever see 'Milan class' again?

Right now we have debatably one player who comes close to being uttered in that kind of breath, Balotelli. And truth is he isn't the finished article, his attitude is often disgraceful and that's now 5 matches we've lost him for through poor conduct.

We have very good players like De Jong (imo arguably one of the top 5 DM's around), Monto (out of form at the moment admittedly) and Kaka (nowhere near convincing anyone he's back to the old Kaka) but other than Balo we basically have no 'Milan class' players at all.

Right now this Milan is a new breed, a team we're not familiar with. We're having to be content with Abate, Mexes, Zapata and DS when it used to be Cafu, Maldini, Nesta and Jankulovski.

Times have changed and it may be decades before the true Milan class returns.

[kurtsimonw]

Yes we will.

Because of FFP, only the high revenue clubs will be able to sign the best players and compete for trophies (desite UEFA hiding behind the idea that this is somehow "fair"?) and as Milan are one of those clubs, they'll eventually be able to attract the top players again.

[Rossoneri7]

Well Danny, you need to examine the reason why Milan had such class and at what expense to maintain that class. There, you will find your answer.


It is a fact that Milan could not afford the teams it had from the turn of the millennium onwards. This created a gap, which the president had to fill every year. People used to complain that the president lost ambition etc, but truth be told he had to pump in anywhere between 70MM and 50MM per year to keep the books in check (not inclusive of player purchases).

As a brand, ACM is world renowned and a powerhouse of European football. But that was all down to the owner and not the club. The club, AC Milan is not rich, quite the contrary, it had filed for bankruptcy the same summer Silvio came in and rescued it.


Now that is out of the way ...

Milan today is different than the Milan we ALL came to know and love. Today it is a project under-construction. Focus on youth, with the odd deals here and there to meet certain requirements (be that sponsorship clauses to have x number of WC players and/or coach's requirements).


The quality of this Milan team is below our expectations, the club no longer can compete with the top clubs of Europe. Strictly due to FFP constraints. As without the owner's funding Milan never was a WC club, nor will it be, until this 'project' is complete.

Barcelona had years of dry spells until it found the perfect blend of players to achieve the success they had. The same is down to the club maintaining a healthy financial position in the past and a dependency on its youth project (which we had recently adopted).


Moreover, and more importantly, it is not a guarantee that Milan will get back to its glorious past, as the club could regress (with or without Berlusconi) and match the fate of Leeds United and the likes.

Why? - Income.

I could take a sample just from this very forum, many of our regular posters don't pay to watch Milan, and instead use online streams for free. Of-course we all do it at some point, but to support the club you would have to contribute to it in some sorts. At the same time, the same sample, even if they did subscribe to Milan games with their local TV providers, there is still a weak fan base in comparison to Juventus or Madrid.


In short, Berlusconi is the only reason why Milan 'was' a class club and under FFP he can not provide for the same. Simply Milan has got a lifeline in its youth project, some smear at it, but that is ok, as not everyone would excel like DS or Maldini. And it could take a decade before we could claim a Scudetto, maybe more.

This post has been edited by Rossoneri7: Sep 24 2013, 12:44 PM

[Danny]

I don't buy the income argument, sorry. AC Milan are the most wealthy sports club in Italy outwith Ferrari. We have a greater turnover than any other sports club in this country and as Kurt rightly puts it due to aforementioned FFP nonsense we'll be able to attract top class players again befitting with the revenue we generate. I must admit I forgot about that little point.

I find your argument R7 incredibly defeatist, negative, and it implies any success prior to Silvio buying us (2 European Cups, 10 Scudettos and a host of of other trophies are nigh-on redundant.

We were still a great name and side back before he bought us and while I admit our most fruitful overall period has been since 86, Associazone Calio Milano were not born that year with new ownership.

As for supporting via finance, I do agree with that - you're supporting the club if you put cash into it. It's just a pity Milan have historically overcharged for its services, rendering purchase as impossible for a great number of fans. There's also no online legal streaming I know of?

[han2503]

The problem is Berlu and Galliani, Berlu is simply done putting money into the team and Galliani just wastes the little we actually have, so unless these 2 are out we can forget about "Milan class" players coming in any time soon

[acid911]

Hot diggedy, I missed threads like these. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy.gif) There was a time when the forum was filled with such threads, and members discussing things. We even had individual threads to discuss news circa 2007 and 2008. Keep creating them, Danny, feels like a forum. There hasn't been much to go around, save for disappointing performances.

As for Milan class, I blame Galliani for the bulk of our problems. He and Berlusconi are two senile old fools, old models that they have stopped making parts for. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) Legal streaming, you say? I bet they'd never even have heard of such a thing.

How about having a dedicated website and a local warehouse for the major markets in the world. People can order official stuff from there, and it gets shipped once a month. It will require what, a bit of local franchising, a small team of official reseller in each country where Milan wants to stake a name and gather some foothold.

Heck, they haven't even focused correctly on two of the most important markets where the club is already insanely popular - the Middle East and Far East (Japan, China and countries). Heck, even getting a foothold in these markets could help generate a few extra millions every year that could be put to good use.

I still stand by my hunch that AC Milan a front for their shady activities and under the table deals. They just want the club to remains on the fringes, self sustainable, not really going down below the fifth place, and keep things as they are. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mellow.gif) If they wanted change for the better there were several players we could have signed.

I can count the affordable quality options we missed out in the past 3 years on my hands and I'd run out of fingers. And that's without even bringing into play the absolute duffers we signed instead of them. Heck, we can't even rectify the goalkeeper situation when it costs us around 10 points every season.

[Rossoneri7]

I don't buy the income argument, sorry. AC Milan are the most wealthy sports club in Italy outwith Ferrari. We have a greater turnover than any other sports club in this country and as Kurt rightly puts it due to aforementioned FFP nonsense we'll be able to attract top class players again befitting with the revenue we generate. I must admit I forgot about that little point.

I find your argument R7 incredibly defeatist, negative, and it implies any success prior to Silvio buying us (2 European Cups, 10 Scudettos and a host of of other trophies are nigh-on redundant.

We were still a great name and side back before he bought us and while I admit our most fruitful overall period has been since 86, Associazone Calio Milano were not born that year with new ownership.

As for supporting via finance, I do agree with that - you're supporting the club if you put cash into it. It's just a pity Milan have historically overcharged for its services, rendering purchase as impossible for a great number of fans. There's also no online legal streaming I know of?

Defeatist? Nottingham Forest have a CL trophy, and Leeds UTD was once a 'power house' of English football. Your very own Rangers went into administration. It is a reality one can not grasp unless you look at the numbers. Numbers don't lie.

But look, its fine and dandy if you like to base it all on assumptions Danny. I look at 'audited' financial statements of the club, if only you could take a peak, you will easily understand where I'm coming from.

There really is not a conspiracy, as some would like to have you believe. But then again, some prefer assumptions to audited financial about the situation at the club.

[Jack Bauer]

We will be on top again, it's just a matter of time. Milan is too big to stay like this for too long.

We need somebody new, with money, fresh ideas and aproach to take over. Berlu is busy with his own sh!t and struggling financially while Galliani is doing whatever he wants and mismanaging the team for years. Berlu done a lot for the club over the years but nothing last forever, eventually we'll have to move on.

Moratti can't keep Inter at the top anymore too and now he's stepping down for some Indonesian dude. Same will happen to us, the question is for how long we'll be kept in this mediocre state before it happens. Maybe once we won't have the CL money (and I'm pretty sure we won't finish in top3 this season) that will accelerate the process.

[Jack Bauer]

Defeatist? Nottingham Forest have a CL trophy, and Leeds UTD was once a 'power house' of English football. Your very own Rangers went into administration. It is a reality one can not grasp unless you look at the numbers. Numbers don't lie.

They never were Milan equivalent. We are one of the top clubs in the world, not many can match our titles count and we are a much bigger brand than those clubs you mentioned. Much lesser clubs than us are being bought and invested in all the time in recent years and it will happen to us eventually.

This post has been edited by Jack Bauer: Sep 24 2013, 06:16 PM

[acid911]

Eventually could potentially be a long wait for us, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sleep.gif) No matter how you play the money game, it will always come down to how it was managed. Whatever philosophy one choses, one has to stick to it. Otherwise, the result will be diddlysquat. We have had a few good youngsters over the years, many who could have transitioned.

Heck, I'd take Merkel over Muntari any given Sunday, Paloschi over Matri. In fact, a visionary management could have foreseen this trouble way back in 2009 or earlier, and groomed even better youngsters. They have been at this for close to three decades now, a child could see the cycles ending and starting.

Instead of a new cycle, we are running in a new circle. The Ibra, Robinho, and company plan went to drain (though it netted us some league success), but instead of improving, we are now in a worse situation. Lack of CL money for a season or two will only sting, that is for sure. More so if we get another wacky new coach in the meantime.

[Danny]

Defeatist? Nottingham Forest have a CL trophy, and Leeds UTD was once a 'power house' of English football. Your very own Rangers went into administration. It is a reality one can not grasp unless you look at the numbers. Numbers don't lie.

No they don't but if you're comparing Forest or Leeds Utd to either Rangers or Milan you're being slightly deluded. Rangers didn't go into admin because we were broke, we went into admin because HMRC discovered our (then) owner was breaking the law by with-holding PAYE, NI and VAT and they forced the admin call regardless of our finances. It was purely because he broke the law, not because the club was broke.

As for Leeds, they spent too much to over-take Man Utd - think they spent over £100M? That's not powerhouse - it's cash they didn't have. Not the first club to spend cash they didn't have and suffer the consequences.

Milan are nowhere NEAR struggling financially. Our owner just refuses to spend.

But look, its fine and dandy if you like to base it all on assumptions Danny. I look at 'audited' financial statements of the club, if only you could take a peak, you will easily understand where I'm coming from.

Maybe you should post them and show how they prove this club has no disposable profit with which to purchase players or how it isn't actually the top earning sports club in Italy as stated by

Forbes (2013, 27th top sports club overall on earth financially)

http://www.forbes.com/pictures/mli45ikdf/27-ac-milan-2/

Brand Finance (2013, 9th biggest earning brand in Europe).

http://brandirectory.com/league_tables/tab...ootball-50-2013

There really is not a conspiracy, as some would like to have you believe. But then again, some prefer assumptions to audited financial about the situation at the club.

I didn't say anything about a conspiracy? Yes, I prefer facts too, but you have ignored the ones I've presented you with.

You also totally ignored my point about how you can't be overly critical of people using 'dodgy' streams when there isn't actually a legal club-authorised service available they can pay for instead. Only Italian-based Milan Channel (Sky Italia 230) and that's it.

[Danny]

They never were Milan equivalent. We are one of the top clubs in the world, not many can match our titles count and we are a much bigger brand than those clubs you mentioned. Much lesser clubs than us are being bought and invested in all the time in recent years and it will happen to us eventually.

We're the biggest club brand on earth bar 8 and that's incredible given we're barely a top 30 club right now in terms of player quality.

[X-Offender]

I really don't see how signing Matri (29) and Kaká (31), and offering them high wages translates into 'focusing on youth'. Especially when 75% of the young players we sign turn out to be crap.

Nah, there isn't a project or vision. We're simply struggling with the limited resources we have, because our president doesn't give two shits about this club anymore. Just look at Napoli, Roma and Fiorentina. They don't even compare to us in terms of revenues, yet they've been heavily investing in the last couple of years, and now they have strong enough squads to compete for the first three spots.

Napoli sold Cavani, but signed Reina, Albiol, Callejon, Mertens and Higuain. Fiorentina sold Jovetic, but signed Gomez. Roma sold Marquinhos and Lamela, but signed Benatia, Maicon, Strootman and Ljajic. When we sold Kaká, who did we sign? When we sold Silva and Ibra, who did we sign? There's the difference. It's ambition, nothing more and nothing less. And our management has none of it left.

[Jack Bauer]

I really don't see how signing Matri (29) and Kaká (31), and offering them high wages translates into 'focusing on youth'. Especially when 75% of the young players we sign turn out to be crap.

Nah, there isn't a project or vision. We're simply struggling with the limited resources we have, because our president doesn't give two shits about this club anymore. Just look at Napoli, Roma and Fiorentina. They don't even compare to us in terms of revenues, yet they've been heavily investing in the last couple of years, and now they have strong enough squads to compete for the first three spots.

Napoli sold Cavani, but signed Reina, Albiol, Callejon, Mertens and Higuain. Fiorentina sold Jovetic, but signed Gomez. Roma sold Marquinhos and Lamela, but signed Benatia, Maicon, Strootman and Ljajic. When we sold Kaká, who did we sign? When we sold Silva and Ibra, who did we sign? There's the difference. It's ambition, nothing more and nothing less. And our management has none of it left.

+100

[Jack Sparrow]

We're the biggest club brand on earth bar 8 and that's incredible given we're barely a top 30 club right now in terms of player quality.

Hey Dan-O.

The truth is both you and R7 are right.

We're up the creek financially. We truly are. You look at the revenue itself. The honest truth is we're nowhere near the clubs who are better than us.

Now ignore player quality for a moment or league standings. If you take our performance in the last 3 to 4 years in CL as a benchmark for our rough ranking, we're roughly a top 20 club. With a few exceptions, almost all the other clubs earn and spend more than we do.

The reasons for this are many, and not just as simplistic as Berlu not spending.

- We have kept having lesser revenues in the San Siro. Not only is average attendance dropped below 50k (in an 80k stadium), we are also having relatively lesser revenue per ticket (relative to Chelsea, Arsenal etc.)

- The re-negotiated TV deal has kicked us hard in the gonads.

- Even if you want someone to take over the firm, you need to show some kind of positive cashflow.

- I'm still not inclined to blame Galliani competely for the whole mess. He is still imo a great transfer guru...in fact every fan with the exception of Mlianistas admit it. If he has a fault I blame it on too much sentimentality.



Frankly, I want a revolution too. I want this club to be back where it belongs, steamrolling Serie A and taking Europe by the scruff of the neck. For me THAT is Milan class.

I want a team built from the back with unquestionable quality, and probably the strongest spine in World Football. THAT is Milan class.

But I also have to admit that maybe we still require to build some sort of economic foundation before a true revolution can be started.

Things that are non-footballing related that come to mind are:

- Refurbishing San Siro. Inter's own uncertainty on the future hits us there.

- Renegotiating and increasing commercial reach

- Refocusing and re-creating a youth strategy

- Rebuilding the Milan brand as an independent institution.


Now points 2 and 3 are definitely showing progress. The last point imo becomes very important because it seems clear to me that Finninvest under the Berlusca kids have no more interest in AC Milan as a subsidiary. To them it is an albatross to be gotten rid of asap. I don't think bar old Silvio and Barbara there is any interest in it.

At the same time selling something that has a fierce Italian identity is probably also irking the board and I can understand the sentimentality involved.

IMO..we are 3 years into a new project (co-inciding with Allegri's arrival). We will probably take another 2-3 years to achieve the same.

It is roughly the same amount of time Juve took, with the difference being they could make a start hidden away in Serie B, and so the story had a progression to it. Whereas our story rather than one of progression is one of running hard while trying to stay at the same place. It's no surprise this is happening, considering the massive backroom changes involved.


But our playing style under this coach STILL PISSES ME THE FOCK OFF!!! How the hell can we play like we did against Torino!!! Berlusca would have fed his balls to the dogs in the old days!! I want more of what we saw against Napoli. I think we need to shore up that damn backline, so we can afford to play with 2 offensive-minded mids like in the ACTUAL Milan 4-3-1-2.

Imagine if we still had Silva:

Abate---Silva---Mexes---De Sciglio
----Poli----De Jong---Montolivo----
-------------Kaka--------------
---Balotelli---------SeS-----------