[acid911]

http://www.milanfan.com/forums/index.php?s...mp;#entry328082

Done in by Pastore, of all people. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mellow.gif) Thank you for digging it up. And well, I've never been too much impressed by Messi in Argentinean colors, though apparently he was somewhat unlucky (in that whatever he tried was stopped) in the last tournament I saw him in, the 2010 World Cup.

Regardless, my point still stands, I'm not all too keen on having greatness shoved up by the media (and in some ways fans). Particularly this "Greatest of All Time" thingy that seemed to pop up a few years back and still carries. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) Call me a saint or a sinner, but there have been a whole lot of greats before him that can lay claim to the title.

As there will be after Messi I am sure. But I guess media people have to eat. Particularly know-it-all pundits.

[X-Offender]

Dude, Spanish league has the worst quality of defenders in all the major European leagues. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif) Major as in English, Italian and German leagues. La Liga is showboating and fancy tricks, which is okay, but it just means the focus shifts from defense to attack in ways that means a dip in defending.

The only thing stopping Real from greatness is bad defense. Even Barcelona have a shaky one now.

Two words: Champions League. End of story.

Awesome. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) But you know I've never been much of a stats man. Love them to bits, but they rarely count for me when it comes to greatness. Heroes in almost all sports, for me, boil down to personal bits not numbers. But I can't disagree with what you said above.

So stats don't count for you, but have you ever seen him play? The guy's class is out of this world. He's one of those players that come once every few generations. Is he the best of all time? I can't say, cause I haven't been there when Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, Platini etc. were active. But he's by far the best in the world right now, and I don't need to think twice about it.

[kurtsimonw]

Well I'm with Messi, I think he's great because of the players around him. Glad he sees it the way I do.

[acid911]

Two words: Champions League. End of story.

Well this is rarely "Champions" League these days. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) But I get where you are coming from.

So stats don't count for you, but have you ever seen him play? The guy's class is out of this world. He's one of those players that come once every few generations. Is he the best of all time? I can't say, cause I haven't been there when Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, Platini etc. were active. But he's by far the best in the world right now, and I don't need to think twice about it.

I've seen him play, and but not as much as the defenders who try and stop him. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy.gif) As a fan of the pure art of defending and having watched great defenders prowl the pitch, even I don't have to think twice how much of a leeway the guy gets. Sadly, defending is a dying art, just see how Nesta pocketed him the last time they met.

And I know the other greats inside out, having watched full matches, read about them, as well as footballing documentaries and everything. And really, in terms of pure and sheer talent a fair few of the Brazil '82 team, for me, were better than this guy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You can say he is the best in the world right now, and I won't disagree.

My only gripe is when people (fans and media) bring up the "All Time" shtick. Help your country to a World Cup, then we will talk. Maybe. Because I don't really like Maradona, but he was downright instrumental in those wins.

[kurtsimonw]

My only gripe is when people (fans and media) bring up the "All Time" shtick. Help your country to a World Cup, then we will talk. Maybe. Because I don't really like Maradona, but he was downright instrumental in those wins.

I don't think it's necessary to win to be the best, because 1 player can't win. But when you see what Ronaldo has done with a very 2nd rate country and you see the players Leo has around him at International level, you'd have thought they'd have won something by now. He's not even scored a competition goal since 2007 which is ridiculous.

[acid911]

I don't think it's necessary to win to be the best, because 1 player can't win. But when you see what Ronaldo has done with a very 2nd rate country and you see the players Leo has around him at International level, you'd have thought they'd have won something by now. He's not even scored a competition goal since 2007 which is ridiculous.

True, true. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The only reason I brought winning the Cup for Messi was because of the people he has around him in the Argentinean NT. Portugal at their best are above average, save for golden players like Rui Costa and Figo.

[X-Offender]

Well this is rarely "Champions" League these days. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) But I get where you are coming from.


I've seen him play, and but not as much as the defenders who try and stop him. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy.gif) As a fan of the pure art of defending and having watched great defenders prowl the pitch, even I don't have to think twice how much of a leeway the guy gets. Sadly, defending is a dying art, just see how Nesta pocketed him the last time they met.

And I know the other greats inside out, having watched full matches, read about them, as well as footballing documentaries and everything. And really, in terms of pure and sheer talent a fair few of the Brazil '82 team, for me, were better than this guy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You can say he is the best in the world right now, and I won't disagree.

My only gripe is when people (fans and media) bring up the "All Time" shtick. Help your country to a World Cup, then we will talk. Maybe. Because I don't really like Maradona, but he was downright instrumental in those wins.

You're looking too much in the past. Like I said, I'm not comparing Messi to champions of previous generations. I'm just saying he's the best of the best now. Do you disagree?

I don't think it's necessary to win to be the best, because 1 player can't win. But when you see what Ronaldo has done with a very 2nd rate country and you see the players Leo has around him at International level, you'd have thought they'd have won something by now. He's not even scored a competition goal since 2007 which is ridiculous.

Clinging onto NT statistics, typical Kurt. Club football is what really counts. What you achieve with your NT is complimentary. Not to mention tournaments come once in a blue moon. Are you saying Messi is poor because he didn't score/played bad in 2012's Coppa America, a mediocre tournament nobody really cares about? He was the best player of an awful Argentina in 2010. It's not his fault Argentina have been appalling in the last few years. He's a phenomenal footballer, but he can't win games by himself. No-one can.

[kurtsimonw]

What you achieve with your NT is complimentary.

He's a phenomenal footballer, but he can't win games by himself.

No-one can.

I'm not sure where I've said anything to the contrary!

This post has been edited by kurtsimonw: Feb 19 2013, 11:25 PM

[X-Offender]

I'm not sure where I've said anything to the contrary!

You always bring up the topic of how Messi is not the same player with Argentina, and you always make that the basis of how Ronaldo is better because he's achieved more with Portugal. I didn't imply that you claimed the contrary of what I wrote in my previous post, but the point remains. No need to quote single sentences cause it's meaningless.

This post has been edited by X-Offender: Feb 19 2013, 11:30 PM

[kurtsimonw]

You always bring up the topic of how Messi is not the same player with Argentina, and you always make that the basis of how Ronaldo is better because he's achieved more with Portugal. I didn't imply that you claimed the contrary of what I wrote in my previous post, but the point remains. No need to quote single sentences cause it's meaningless.

In my opinion Messi's performances aren't as good with Argentina as they are with Barcelona, which to me suggests he benefits from superior players at club level. Ronaldo is basically the same player wherever. It's nothing to do with what they've acheived, it's my opinion of how they perform within those teams. You might think Messi is just as good with Argentina, he isn't to me.

[dst]

In my opinion Messi's performances aren't as good with Argentina as they are with Barcelona, which to me suggests he benefits from superior players at club level. Ronaldo is basically the same player wherever. It's nothing to do with what they've acheived, it's my opinion of how they perform within those teams. You might think Messi is just as good with Argentina, he isn't to me.

That's not true. CR is better with Portugal than Messi is for Argentina but he's not as good as he is with RM or was with ManU.

By the way, this notion that Messi benefits from Barcelona's other great players is of course true but I think it's given too much weight cause if those other players could help their teammates that much Messi would not be the only constant Barcelona goal scorer all these years.

[kurtsimonw]

That's not true. CR is better with Portugal than Messi is for Argentina but he's not as good as he is with RM or was with ManU.

By the way, this notion that Messi benefits from Barcelona's other great players is of course true but I think it's given too much weight cause if those other players could help their teammates that much Messi would not be the only constant Barcelona goal scorer all these years.

He's been top scorer since he was the focal point. Before that Eto'o was the focal point and top scorer and Messi was wide. It's not all too surprising as to why. They scored more as a team with Eto'o top scorer than most their years with Messi as top scorer. I think they had more players capable of scoring back then. Nowadays who would you call a serious goal threat? Alexis? Pedro? Fabregas? Villa? They're okay scorers, nothing more. Not saying he's bad at all, far from it. I just think Ronaldo is the better overall player.

This post has been edited by kurtsimonw: Feb 20 2013, 05:48 AM

[Rossoneri7]

He's been top scorer since he was the focal point. Before that Eto'o was the focal point and top scorer and Messi was wide.

Messi was 16/17/18 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/innocent.gif)

[kurtsimonw]

Messi was 16/17/18 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/innocent.gif)

In 2008/09? He was 22 when Eto'o left.

[acid911]

You're looking too much in the past. Like I said, I'm not comparing Messi to champions of previous generations. I'm just saying he's the best of the best now. Do you disagree?

As I said in the post above, there is little room for disagreement. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) But as also said above, when it comes to All Time thingies, one has to look into the past. I am aware some of the finest players of this generation are still not finished with their career, but from what I see, they just don't hold up against legends from the past.

Kaka was the last one in my opinion who had that magic aura for a brief few seasons. Then darkness!