[Danny]

The thing people here have to realise that coaching a team is not like playing Fifa.

I don't play Fifa (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

You cannot simply change the formation and expect it to work. Coaching a formation or playing style usually takes place in the pre-season where the players train everyday and then use freindlies to make adjustments

You cannot do a new formation during the season simply because you do not have enough time. Top managers usually have 2 formations under their belt. The first one, which they play in the league and the second they use in Champions league. Now in order to achieve that you need to have a few years at the club so you can build that foundation. Second you need to have the players at your disposal to be able to make your ideas flourish.

SAF has about 800 formations. Today he played Berbatov up front alone in a 4-2-3-1. He also plays a 4-4-2 and a 4-3-3 and sometimes uses 4-5-1. He mixes it up and that's even when his squad is down to barebones like it was a few months ago when he had Carrick playing as a defender.

Coaches are not machines. They cannot simply look at a team and make it work. There are very few in the world who are capable of this and the best i've seen would be guus hiddink and even he's not that great at it.

You need time, the right squad and support in order to be successful. Leo has a certain style he wants to play and coach and right now we do not have the players for his style. Can he change, can he adapt? Not likely.

His 'style' is the problem that we're banging on about - his style was the 4-3-2-1 which worked so well but now doesn't. So what, do we just sit around watching the side lose because our coach can't come up with anything else?

I don't accept that and neither should anyone else. He'd paid to manage us, not to oversee one formation and just hope it works.

You cannot make Pato into a WC defender, just like you can't make Leo into a defensive minded coach like Carlo. He's always going to want to play the free flow football that you have seen so far this season. Thats just who he is and that is not going to change.

You're totally missing the point. Hell I suggested a 3-4-3 attacking formation. It's not about the TYPE of football he refuses to shift from, it's the notion of altering a system when it doesn't work as and when required.

So in reality we have two choices. Fire him and look for someone who is willing to work with the current trash we have on our team or we let him sign his own players and see what he can do.

I wouldn't even call Abbati trash Blue, that seems really unfair. They're honest guys doing their best - some might not be good enough but it doesn't warrant such a comparison.

As for your point, I think we have another choice - the one I've suggested where he learns alternative systems.

[Danny]

What your talking about is making adjustments. In order to do this you have to have the players at your disposal and time in order to make those players understand your system.

That's what training is supposed to do. Team meetings, where systems are laid out and implemented.
If Leo can't do this, no matter what players he has or hasn't, then he should not be in the job.

If Leo had say 3 players of his choice on the bench that he signed, I can assure you that he would be able to make adjustments accordingly.

I think that's a crock tbh. You're blaming all of the deficiencies on the fact he hasn't been able to bring in his own players? Surely a manager is capable of using what he has at his disposal - and let's face it, Ambro, Pirlo, Seedorf, Borriello, Hunter...this is not a rubbish group of players - a good manager can make even an average group play well.

But its hard when you have to deal with players who don't really play your style of football. If borri who can barely play Leo's style of football sh*ts the bed; does he have a fabiano on the bench to look to? No he has huntelaar and Inzaghi, two forewards who will never ever be able to play his style. That is why you see him with his hands on his jaws.

One funny thing I have to point is you keep harping on about his style, yet this is his first management job. What exactly IS his style, since he doesn't seem to know what it is himself...

I do the same thing, it means, what the f*ck do I do now.

And I don't want my manager to say that.

[servbot]

I don't know if Leo is a great coach or tactician or not, I don't have nearly enough football experience to know, but I think we would all agree that this team has overachieved this season overall, which can't be a mark against their coach.

[Fishdoll]

Your point is that even the greats were given the squad they were given and they had to suck it up and work with what they had right???

Exactly. So expecting Leonardo to be given full reign to design his team and buy who he wants is unrealistic and is highly unlikely to happen.

[Dracoris]

Servbot is exactly right. This team has overachieved this season and that should count for a lot.

Danny, all of your suggestions seem to assume Seedorf can play a full 90 mins without digging a grave in midfield and laying in it. You also want to put Ronaldinho in the hole (I seem to remember you saying that, it was a lot to read and remember (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )and let him direct the strikers like a trequartista, not gonna happen. We worked that all summer and got blown out. The guy plays his best ball on the left touchline, where he won a lot of awards. You also assume that switching formations on a whim is a good thing. Every sport you look at, coaches have their go to formation. For a football coach it might be the I-form or shotgun, for a basketball coach it might be zone defense, for Leo its the 4-3-3. (Technically its not but there are 3 mids and 3 'strikers') Urban Myer never ever lined Tim Tebow up under center and they won 2 National Titles and numerous SEC titles during Tebow's 4 year tenure.

The point Blue is trying to get across (or so I think) is that the 4-3-3 is not the problem. The problem is, Leo was granted a squad built for playing defensive, slow pace soccer. Leo is an attacking, fast paced coach. That IS his style, and he knows what his style is, that was silly to say he doesn't. The players who do fit this system, ex. Ronnie and Pato (possibly even Ambro and Flam), are having stellar seasons.

He's not the best coach in the world, no doubt. But he does not deserve to be replaced, and he is exactly what the Serie A is begging for. If we can get him what he needs to succeed (Players to fit the 4-3-3) then who knows what could happen. AC Milan needs massive change to compete and catch up with Europe's best, and I believe Leo is trying to do that. Its time for the management to let go of the leash and let the dog walk himself.



P.S. I'd just like to say that debating like this with you guys is one of the bright points of my day. Everyone where I am from is your typical Football(Soccer) hater or a bandwagon Manchester fan. I feel like a fish out of water and its really good to talk Footy with intelligent, AC Milan loving people, so thanks!!

This post has been edited by Dracoris: Mar 28 2010, 01:59 AM

[Fishdoll]

I feel like a fish out of water

I have a spare tank you can borrow if you like! Only thing is, it's filled with single-malt whisky. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[Dracoris]

I have a spare tank you can borrow if you like! Only thing is, it's filled with single-malt whisky. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

Oh dear, you'd definitely find me belly up in the morning.

[MizNelson]

Should not be on a team of Milan's calibre

That's even more pathetic than you calling the players trash.

[Bluesummers]

That's even more pathetic than you calling the players trash.

???


Why cause I said Dida isn't worthy of milan LOL???


Our club went from Dutch legends to kaladze and favalli LOL

[Jack Sparrow]

Ignoring blue calling the players trash..I think in the words of Jose Mourinho he meant to say we were a bad omelette (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

But a point to make, about Danny's thing about SAF...he has only 2 formations like Bluey mentioned: 4-4-2 and 4-5-1.

The thing is both these formations are inherently flexible during game time. So sometimes you will see it miraculously become a 4-3-1-2 and sometimes a 4-2-3-1, and sometimes even a 4-1-4-1. The whole concept is, a team starts out one way, but then have enough players to make the changes in-game.

Even when SAF brings in substitutes, they're rarely HUGE departures from the players he put on in the first place. For eg. He might take off Nani, and put in Park. But Park will continue to play on the left, except Park's plus is in his graft and not his guile.

Also the reason why sometimes Park starts in the middle, along with Carrick, at which point, Nani and Valencia are told to go crazy since Park covers the space they leave. Sometimes Rooney is sole striker, sometimes Scholes/Giggs play in the hole, sometimes Rooney plays in the hole to supply Berbatov (if they have two strikers)...but most of this happens in match.


Now the whole problem with Milan is it is still Carlo's team. Meant to play a 4-3-1-2 or a 4-3-2-1. And both of them depended on Kaka. Sometimes Kaka was a second CAM, sometimes he was SS, with Seedorf moving into the hole. It was limited, but till Kaka's huge dip after the injury it was still very strong.

Leo has tried to make a new system a 4-3-3. Even that changes during the match. Only r80 really has that free role on the left. Sometimes you see Pirlo push up to be treqqie (which is when I feel we are most lethal). You have Flamini and/or Ambro sometimes holding back as DM (when Pirlo is up)...or sometimes rushing into the box, when Pirlo is marked and the box is congested.

You would have Beckham playing a RW, and then suddenly drifting into the middle to find Pato, since Pato cuts into the box as well. And then there's the very Brazillian thing of having T.Silva rush the opponent's half. Suddenly making it one more extra man in the half, which can be very deadly.

All these things don't just come up like snap. They require a lot of work in training to make all these various chemistries work. And they have worked. It doesn't help when all of a sudden, the players who give you the strength and the flexibility are out. It's like the ground gets pulled beneath your feet. I'm talking of: Nesta, Pato, Beckham mainly. Seedorf got injured just before that XMas period when he was just playing terrific. Borriello would get injured when we needed him the most. And now that he's fit, he's not doing what he used to. Nesta being injured means that Silva can't push in like he did, leaving Favalli on his own, and if he does, we're susceptible to the counter attack. Favalli's positioning is good, but not even close to Nesta-level.

You don't think the chemistry between R80 and Antonini just happened did you? Antonini is not even someone who I'd call gifted. It's obviously training.

Do we need tactical flexibility for this team, yes. But we don't have the players. Right now it's kind of like making a truck engine go fast. And Leo has done all the tuning he can.

When you say alternate formations you're falling into the trap of 'anything but this'. Often that 'anything' turns out much worse. How many times in Italy do you see one coach being fired, and then they hire another only to fire him and get the old one back? And no it's not just Zamparini. You have Udinese etc. do it as well.

We started the season with the 4-3-1-2...btw..which is exactly the formation you have suggested for this match. Seedorf on the right, and cutting in the middle, R80 playing as SS or in the hole, or on the left. We got KILLED. If we hadn't started with it and instead with the 4-3-3, we'd be top of the table right now. But it took Leo about 3 months during an active season to find this new formation, and he did.

I think he's done a great job..and he should stay. His points (if they're true) are valid and reasonable. In fact I suspect that's why Carlo left as well. When Galliani says we had a discussion with 'my friend Carlo' on the direction that we wanted the team to take, and decided to part ways amicably...I'm pretty sure this is what it is.

Carlo probably said, I don't have the system to play R80, give me Ribery or something like that.

Great coaches, will always want the players to suit their system. Mourinho has done that this season, and he's managed to go one round further than last year in CL. The scudetto last season was nothing. Most of the teams were still weak.

And to end: Sacchi said, Leo is the only coach to have brought any tactical innovation in this year's league. That's good enough for me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smoke.gif)

[Zed.D]

Thank you Dracoris and Jack - spot on.

I can't see how what you guys said can be argued.

[han2503]

Drocaris and Jackie. SPOT ON

Agree 100% with you. The problem is not the coach, it's the management, and it has been the problem for a while now. Silvio and Galliani have run us into the ground, Leo managed to make a mediocre team look, at times, untouchable this season, he should be given a meddle for what he's managed to achieve this season, as his first coaching experiance non-the-less

[Jack Sparrow]

Drocaris and Jackie. SPOT ON

Agree 100% with you. The problem is not the coach, it's the management, and it has been the problem for a while now. Silvio and Galliani have run us into the ground, Leo managed to make a mediocre team look, at times, untouchable this season, he should be given a meddle for what he's managed to achieve this season, as his first coaching experiance non-the-less

That's Dracoris...and I'm Bruce Lee not Jackie Chan.

You mean medal,not meddle. Silvio meddles, Galliani gives medals (for 200th appearance and all that)... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

It's too early for you to be drinking kiddo...your birthday is over, you can stop now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Jack Sparrow]

Urban Myer never ever lined Tim Tebow up under center and they won 2 National Titles and numerous SEC titles during Tebow's 4 year tenure.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif) Which club were they? L.A Galaxy?

The point Blue is trying to get across (or so I think) is that the 4-3-3 is not the problem. The problem is, Leo was granted a squad built for playing defensive, slow pace soccer. Leo is an attacking, fast paced coach. That IS his style, and he knows what his style is, that was silly to say he doesn't. The players who do fit this system, ex. Ronnie and Pato (possibly even Ambro and Flam), are having stellar seasons.

The correct term is tempo-controlling possession football, but you're American. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

P.S. I'd just like to say that debating like this with you guys is one of the bright points of my day. Everyone where I am from is your typical Football(Soccer) hater or a bandwagon Manchester fan. I feel like a fish out of water and its really good to talk Footy with intelligent, AC Milan loving people, so thanks!!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif) Are you a hot chick? We can go out on a date if you are.

EDIT: Does anyone know how Leo speaks such good English?
Interview
Press Snippet

I think he speaks better English than Jean Claude Van Damme.

[Dracoris]

If I am a chick then I have been living a lie for quite some time. Haha

-- Tebow and Meyer are references to NCAA Football here in America, Tebow (the quarterback) and Meyer (the coach) created one of the most successful NCAA Football teams to date. And thats saying a lot because I support a rival team haha.