[Fillipo Simone]

If I were Gallaini I'd push for a permanent swap between him and Immobile. Maybe Dortmund are interested?

What's so different between Immobile and SES anyway? Both had 1 good season, both talented and both in a crisis. Why do you think substituting one youngster out of form with another would do any considerable move forward?

And especially the tactical line is more then just problematic. You see how Dortmund struggle without a true 9 striker. They had Lucas Barrios and Lewandowski which made their system work. Now they replaced them with the likes of Kagawa, Ramos, Immobile and Aubameyang - none of which is a true 9 striker.

I think we need that kind of player for our system, not Immobile who exactly like SES is somewhere between a winger and a central striker and tactically very hard to pinpoint.

[X-Offender]

Yeah there's a difference. Top class is a highly regarded player who will regularly get yer 10-20M moves, but world class is reserved only for the truly, truly best. Diego Costa is world class, Vidal is world class, Iturbe top class.

Hold your horses there. Costa and Vidal world class? I think they're great, top class, but world class is reserved for very special players. Nesta, Pirlo, Seedorf, Kaká, Shevchenko, these were world class. Costa and Vidal don't even come close.

What's so different between Immobile and SES anyway? Both had 1 good season, both talented and both in a crisis. Why do you think substituting one youngster out of form with another would do any considerable move forward?

And especially the tactical line is more then just problematic. You see how Dortmund struggle without a true 9 striker. They had Lucas Barrios and Lewandowski which made their system work. Now they replaced them with the likes of Kagawa, Ramos, Immobile and Aubameyang - none of which is a true 9 striker.

I think we need that kind of player for our system, not Immobile who exactly like SES is somewhere between a winger and a central striker and tactically very hard to pinpoint.

Say what?! Immobile is a true 9 striker if there ever was one. What you on about...

As to why I'd swap him with SES, it's because we need a CF with Torres gone and because I rate Immobile higher. SES is overrated.

This post has been edited by X-Offender: Dec 28 2014, 01:19 PM

[han2503]

Not sure I'd agree. Cerci's a winger, and Atleti don't play with them. His signing raised eyebrows this summer, no one could understand why Simeone had brought in a winger at all, never mind that particular one. He didn't start many matches as he simply didn't fit into the system.

And I wouldn't say he flopped at Fiorentina? 7 goals in 19 starts in 2012/2013 isn't a flop for a winger. Since basically 2012 he's just got better and better. A late bloomer, you could say. Many stories of that in football.


Yeah there's a difference. Top class is a highly regarded player who will regularly get yer 10-20M moves, but world class is reserved only for the truly, truly best. Diego Costa is world class, Vidal is world class, Iturbe top class.


Apart from Fiorentina. Roma he barely played and didn't suit them, same as Atleti.


None? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Just one (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Had it not been for SES we would not have made it into the CL that year (probably our last time in it for quite a while)

As for the difference between world class and top class, I think that's subjective, and splitting hairs, but I wouldn't put Gervinho or Iturbe anywhere near either of those terms

See, I think you're making excuses for Cerci now, he didn't fit here and he didn't fit there. Problem is, he really only delivered great numbers in a counterattacking mid-table side, no big club is going to play the way that Torino do, even with us, he's not going to find many opportunities to run in a straight line, cut in and cross as he did for Toro on many occasions, we play a relatively slow game, I personally think he'll struggle with us

What's so different between Immobile and SES anyway? Both had 1 good season, both talented and both in a crisis. Why do you think substituting one youngster out of form with another would do any considerable move forward?

And especially the tactical line is more then just problematic. You see how Dortmund struggle without a true 9 striker. They had Lucas Barrios and Lewandowski which made their system work. Now they replaced them with the likes of Kagawa, Ramos, Immobile and Aubameyang - none of which is a true 9 striker.

I think we need that kind of player for our system, not Immobile who exactly like SES is somewhere between a winger and a central striker and tactically very hard to pinpoint.

Agreed totally about Immobile (Although imo he's a pure #9, he just isn't good enough to replace Lewandowski the way Dortmund need him to)

I find it funny how people here use different weights to suite situations that best support their arguments

Immobile had one good season with Toro, he's so far struggled at Dortmund

[Fillipo Simone]

Hold your horses there. Costa and Vidal world class? I think they're great, top class, but world class is reserved for very special players. Nesta, Pirlo, Seedorf, Kaká, Shevchenko, these were world class. Costa and Vidal don't even come close.

Agreed

Say what?! Immobile is a true 9 striker if there ever was one. What you on about...

As to why I'd swap him with SES, it's because we need a CF with Torres gone and because I rate Immobile higher. SES is overrated.

Well, Klopp seems to disagree. All analytical explanations of Dortmunds downfall point to the lack of a true 9 like Barrios or Lewandowski.

[X-Offender]

Well, Klopp seems to disagree. All analytical explanations of Dortmunds downfall point to the lack of a true 9 like Barrios or Lewandowski.

Well, they're all idiots then. Immobile is pure CF, ask anyone and that's what they'll tell you.

[Fillipo Simone]

Well, they're all idiots then. Immobile is pure CF, ask anyone and that's what they'll tell you.

Idiots? I don't think so. Point is, Immobile is struggling to do just what he's supposed to do: be a pure 9.

[X-Offender]

Idiots? I don't think so. Point is, Immobile is struggling to do just what he's supposed to do: be a pure 9.

No, he's struggling because Dortmund are crap. Last in the league FFS!

[maldini03]

The fact that they are last in the league is exactly why I don't want SES for Immobile now. If they don't pick it up, they will be relegated, and you can bet that there will be a fire sale of players who don't want to be playing in the German Second Division. Patience is key here with those players, next year we could have a shot at Immobile, and Aubuemyang given our history with him.

[Danny]

Hold your horses there. Costa and Vidal world class? I think they're great, top class, but world class is reserved for very special players. Nesta, Pirlo, Seedorf, Kaká, Shevchenko, these were world class. Costa and Vidal don't even come close.

Nah, the list you just gave are legends. They're beyond world class. Del Piero, Vialli, Zanetti fall into this. They fall slightly short of being the absolute best of all time but they're far better than just 'world class'

World class for me is a contemporary term to basically describe the best 100 or so players around in the world today. Guys who have won almost everything, or are capable of doing so. Who excel in the CL and world cup. Who are at home on the biggest stages in the biggest teams. Costa, Vidal, Rodriguez, Robben, Ribery, Messi, Ronaldo, Suarez. These are today's world class players and maybe 4 of them could go onto be legends, and two look certs to be classed as among the elite of best of all time.

Of course, this is completely subjective and just my opinion.

[Danny]

Just one (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

SES had 4 months (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Had it not been for SES we would not have made it into the CL that year (probably our last time in it for quite a while)

Alas not true. His scoring glut was between August and November. Kept us midtable to be fair to him. We'd have been even worse without him. It wasn't till AFTER that though, and Balo's arrival, that we moved into the top 3. That was actually when SES' form disappeared.

As for the difference between world class and top class, I think that's subjective, and splitting hairs, but I wouldn't put Gervinho or Iturbe anywhere near either of those terms

I wouldn't put them anywhere near world class either but they're great to top class.

See, I think you're making excuses for Cerci now, he didn't fit here and he didn't fit there.

Of course I am, I like him. Like you like SES and do exactly the same with him.

We will make arguments and cases to suit our personal favourites.

Problem is, he really only delivered great numbers in a counterattacking mid-table side, no big club is going to play the way that Torino do, even with us, he's not going to find many opportunities to run in a straight line, cut in and cross as he did for Toro on many occasions, we play a relatively slow game, I personally think he'll struggle with us

Yes, because Abate never does that... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

PS we ARE a counter attacking midtable side! It's how we beat Napoli and drew with Roma.

I find it funny how people here use different weights to suite situations that best support their arguments

I find it even funnier how I hadn't even read this line but used exactly the same point two minutes ago about our Cerci/SES debate (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Immobile had one good season with Toro, he's so far struggled at Dortmund

As has the rest of their team, to be fair. But here's a point - many Italian players DO struggle away from Italy. They come back and find their game again. Look at Balo - his best years were at Milan and arguably Inter. Did meh at City and f*cking shite at Liverpool. Vialli was glorious at Juve and underwhelming at Chelsea.

I wouldn't necessarily use that argument against Immobile.

[han2503]

SES had 4 months (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Alas not true. His scoring glut was between August and November. Kept us midtable to be fair to him. We'd have been even worse without him. It wasn't till AFTER that though, and Balo's arrival, that we moved into the top 3. That was actually when SES' form disappeared.

You can't pick and choose, his goals were crucial for us and kept us in it for most of the first part of the season, his 4 months produced double figure goal tally and a handful of crucial assists as well.

Had he not scored those goals and earned us those points we'd have never been in a position to get into 3rd by the end of the season. Trying to dismiss how important he was for us that season is a low blow. Let's not forget the goals that kick started our good form, his double against Napoli

I wouldn't put them anywhere near world class either but they're great to top class.

Nah, Gervinho never was and never will be anywhere near top class, Iturbe has the potential to get there but is no where near that atm imo

Of course I am, I like him. Like you like SES and do exactly the same with him.

We will make arguments and cases to suit our personal favourites.

Agreed there

Yes, because Abate never does that... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

PS we ARE a counter attacking midtable side! It's how we beat Napoli and drew with Roma.

Well Abate is a RB not a "tricky winger" as Cerci is classified under

And sure, we did play that way against Napoli, Pippo sets us up that way against the more difficult sides because he's afraid we'd get spanked otherwise.

However that's not how we play regularly, we tend to go for a slower approach and that's where Cerci will struggle. I've never once seen him do well with Italy for example. And the way Italy play is similar to us; slow, possession based football

I find it even funnier how I hadn't even read this line but used exactly the same point two minutes ago about our Cerci/SES debate (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Sure, but the key point here is that I never declared SES was great or anything other then what he is atm, I've always said that I believe he has potential, which is why I am patient with him because I do think he'll come good.

As has the rest of their team, to be fair. But here's a point - many Italian players DO struggle away from Italy. They come back and find their game again. Look at Balo - his best years were at Milan and arguably Inter. Did meh at City and f*cking shite at Liverpool. Vialli was glorious at Juve and underwhelming at Chelsea.

I wouldn't necessarily use that argument against Immobile.

It was his choice to go there, and I would have imagined his style suited Dortmund. I just don't think he's as great as you guys are making him out to be, imo he's at SES level, he's got the potential but atm, he's just a 1 season wonder.

I'd rather do as maldini03 suggested above and wait out to see what happens with Dortmund and try to go in for him later rather than directly exchange him for SES.

For the moment we can still go with SES as the central striker or the winger with Menez in the centre, especially if we get Cerci in

[Danny]

You can't pick and choose, his goals were crucial for us and kept us in it for most of the first part of the season, his 4 months produced double figure goal tally and a handful of crucial assists as well.

(IMG:http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ibZwCnL0EEc/UKDTr3IV3HI/AAAAAAAAAwI/xu7eVMEs518/s1600/up.jpg)

11th is hardly 'in it'. It is, as I said, merely midtable.

Had he not scored those goals and earned us those points we'd have never been in a position to get into 3rd by the end of the season. Trying to dismiss how important he was for us that season is a low blow.

Oh no, I'm not dismissing his four months and the importance of his contribution during those, I'm dismissing your claim he ultimately led us to third. He was crap after December. Scored 5 goals from Dec 4th till end of the season, and managed 6 assists all season. His goals during that period won us a grand total of 4 points.

And if you can't accept that and consider it a low blow, it's really not something I'll lose sleep over (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

"yeah but..." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Let's not forget the goals that kick started our good form, his double against Napoli

Many would argue it was the visit from Silvio that kickstarted the form, but I will side with you on this, he did score two wonderful goals in that match and that was the beginning of the team's form. Unfortunately his two goals at Catania a fortnight later was the end of his own.

Nah, Gervinho never was and never will be anywhere near top class, Iturbe has the potential to get there but is no where near that atm imo

We're disagreeing on semantics. I class top class as different to world class whereas you don't.

Agreed there

So basically we can't take a word each other says seriously (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Well Abate is a RB not a "tricky winger" as Cerci is classified under

And sure, we did play that way against Napoli, Pippo sets us up that way against the more difficult sides because he's afraid we'd get spanked otherwise.

However that's not how we play regularly, we tend to go for a slower approach and that's where Cerci will struggle. I've never once seen him do well with Italy for example. And the way Italy play is similar to us; slow, possession based football

I've not seen any Italian player do well with Italy in the past 24 months. Even Pirlo. Seems a bit unreasonable to pick on Cerci based on the shitty NT they have.

Sure, but the key point here is that I never declared SES was great or anything other then what he is atm, I've always said that I believe he has potential, which is why I am patient with him because I do think he'll come good.

He's taking his sweet time about it then, because 4 good months of 48 is absolutely abominable.

It was his choice to go there, and I would have imagined his style suited Dortmund.

They finished second last season, this season they've been a complete disaster and tonight there were rumours of Klopp quitting. So last season's Dortmund, maybe. This one? Doesn't appear to suit anyone.

I just don't think he's as great as you guys are making him out to be, imo he's at SES level, he's got the potential but atm, he's just a 1 season wonder.

I agree to an extent. I don't think he's Diego Costa either, but the difference between him and SES is Immobile scored plenty last season in a league SES is struggling in this season. Plus he's even managed 3 in this catastrophic Dortmund. So '1 season wonder' isn't really fair - given that one season was last season whereas SES hasn't even managed one yet.

I'd rather do as maldini03 suggested above and wait out to see what happens with Dortmund and try to go in for him later rather than directly exchange him for SES.

For the moment we can still go with SES as the central striker or the winger with Menez in the centre, especially if we get Cerci in

Not for me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

I want someone who will score.

[Fillipo Simone]

No, he's struggling because Dortmund are crap. Last in the league FFS!

Have you been watching Dortmund lately? Beside a shaky defense and a few more injuries, it's pretty much the same thing as for the last 2-3 years. With one big exemption - they don't score the goals they used to. Main culprit? I'd say Ramos, Auba and Immobile simply cannot replace Lewandowski.

[Danny]

Have you been watching Dortmund lately? Beside a shaky defense and a few more injuries, it's pretty much the same thing as for the last 2-3 years. With one big exemption - they don't score the goals they used to. Main culprit? I'd say Ramos, Auba and Immobile simply cannot replace Lewandowski.

Don't score the goals they used to? Shaky defence? You aware they won their group in the CL having score 14 goals and conceded only 4?

While it's true the above 3 strikers aren't as good as Lewandowski, bit weird that they're absolutely fine without him in the CL but not in the league.

Nah, losing their best player isn't why they're so weird this season, something else is at play and I don't know what.

[han2503]

(IMG:http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ibZwCnL0EEc/UKDTr3IV3HI/AAAAAAAAAwI/xu7eVMEs518/s1600/up.jpg)

11th is hardly 'in it'. It is, as I said, merely midtable.



Oh no, I'm not dismissing his four months and the importance of his contribution during those, I'm dismissing your claim he ultimately led us to third. He was crap after December. Scored 5 goals from Dec 4th till end of the season, and managed 6 assists all season. His goals during that period won us a grand total of 4 points.

And if you can't accept that and consider it a low blow, it's really not something I'll lose sleep over (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

"yeah but..." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I never said he single handedly lead us to 3rd, I'm saying he had provided a major contribution to get us there, whether that was in the first 4 months of the season or the last doesn't matter in this argument imo. My point was that he was a crucial reason as to why we managed to make it in that season. And he was scoring these goals while the rest of the team was an abomination, which is the excuse you're making for Immobile not scoring at Dortmund

Many would argue it was the visit from Silvio that kickstarted the form, but I will side with you on this, he did score two wonderful goals in that match and that was the beginning of the team's form. Unfortunately his two goals at Catania a fortnight later was the end of his own.

Meh, Silvio or not, it took one player and his 2 goals to restore belief in the team.

We're disagreeing on semantics. I class top class as different to world class whereas you don't.

No, my point was, he wouldn't fit in either my definition of top class or yours, he's just not that good. He's fast sure, but the rest of his abilities are questionable at best, it's when you see him against top opposition that his clumsiness really comes out not when he's running at the Sassuolo defence

I've not seen any Italian player do well with Italy in the past 24 months. Even Pirlo. Seems a bit unreasonable to pick on Cerci based on the shitty NT they have.

He wasn't good when Italy were doing great under Prandelli either before the WC. Candreva (who imo, is a more mediocre player than Cerci) has done better with Italy than him. I just don't buy into the Cerci thing like some here do, but as I said, I'm more than willing to give him a chance with us, especially if he comes as a swap for Torres and because we need a proper winger if Pippo is going to continue to insist on the 4-3-3

He's taking his sweet time about it then, because 4 good months of 48 is absolutely abominable.

Like I said, the number 48 you're providing is given very loosely. As he's only been a major first team player 36 of those months and was injured for an entire season, meaning another 12 months missed

They finished second last season, this season they've been a complete disaster and tonight there were rumours of Klopp quitting. So last season's Dortmund, maybe. This one? Doesn't appear to suit anyone.

As I mentioned above, SES performed for us when we were at our worst moments, and as Filippo said above, Dortmund's team is as it was last season minus Lewandowski, who they've replaced with Immobile, who has failed to deliver the goals that Lewandowski scored

I agree to an extent. I don't think he's Diego Costa either, but the difference between him and SES is Immobile scored plenty last season in a league SES is struggling in this season. Plus he's even managed 3 in this catastrophic Dortmund. So '1 season wonder' isn't really fair - given that one season was last season whereas SES hasn't even managed one yet.

For me SES has managed 1, just because his goal scoring was mostly clustered into 4 to 5 months of the season doesn't mean he was terrible for the rest of it, he was still very important to how we played

Not for me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

I want someone who will score.

Well, technically speaking SES isn't considered a striker by the coaches we've had, so for people to expect big numbers from him when he's playing on the wing is already an unfair benchmark, not all wingers are prolific scorers, so I don't get why people expect similar numbers to that of a striker from SES when he isn't playing that position, he's so far scored 1 and assisted 3 this season, if it was anyone else no one would be calling him a flop