[Fillipo Simone]

Nah, Han you're completely off about all of this.

1) On Bayern

Götze played this season almost regularly; it's Guardiolas rotation system that needs such players, even if Ribery and Robben are fit. Lewandowski came in and Madžukić out, I don't see how they signed Lewa just for the sake of it? But in the big picture, Bayern always mixed plenty of homegrown talent (from Kohler to Badstuber and Lahm, Jeremies to Kroos, etc.) with buys like Lucio or Ballack. But they never raided the league just for the sake of having these players - all key buys like Lucio, Ballack, Ze Roberto, Kovač, etc. had crucial roles.

But the main thing you miss, probably because you're not into the Bundesliga; there's a key difference: Juventus-Milan, Milan-Juventus, etc. transfers are more rare because of the rivalry. Only out of commodity did the Inter-Milan and vice versa transfers start to become more regular. But to leave Milan for say Juventus was and still is a bit odd, especially for key players.

That's different in Germany. The traditional clubs like München 1860, Eintracht, Nürenberg and HSV all play minor roles in the last decade(s). The newly established stronger clubs like Wolfsburg, Leverkusen, etc. have no particular tradition of rivalry, so it+s more natural for Bayern to sing their players, even star players. Now Dortmund is an exemption. Bayern did not shop with Dortmund right until Götze and now Lewa. And like I said, with Guardiola things started to change. The Bayern prior to that was different, you need to have more insight to know this.

2) On Milan

I'd like nothing more then find another bad aspect of our recent affairs but, in all honesty, let's revise your statement.

Unlike us, who've had talented players like Darmian for example come out of our own system and we simply let him go for basically nothing. Now he's worth over 20m for sure in this market.

You say this like Darmian is a good example, but in all honesty it's a fluke. One good out of many bad. Look at the various players like Verdi, Grimi, Marzorati, etc. etc. Darmian, who Tennie called from day one as I recall a big potential, never impressed me with his various ventures, for example at Palermo. Only recently he's been rediscovered and I'm still not sure if it's just a good season or two or if he's really reached the highest level. But you cannot base your theory on one player, and that's what you have here. Maybe one and a half with Paloschi considered (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[han2503]

So? That has to be the flimsiest argument ever. You're praising them for letting a youth player go for free then buying him back for millions?

That's good business?!

Christ, I know you want to perpetuate your Juve being fair argument with Bayern, Real and Barca being the baddies, but this case is truly feeble!

I actually said that wrong. Berardi was the one on a co-ownership not Zaza, which is what I meant, however, Juve paid 12m for Zaza (with the deal involving the second half of Berardi going to Sassuolo). They had previously sold him to Sassuolo for 7.5m. That deal is cheaper than most co-own resolutions are. So yes, Juve let him go and bought him back, but they still had a strong hold on him, thanks to the other deal with regards to Berardi. Everyone knows both players were always Juve bound, just a matter of when not if. Also, they included a buy back option for Berardi as well, so when they want him, they'll bring him back.

Most importantly, these players were always Juve's and they made it so that they can bring them back when they want them, sure for a little cash, but 12m for a club that's doing so well is a good deal to have these players out and getting quality play time in the league that they wouldn't have gotten had they kept them or just loaned them.

Point is, Juve made smart investments, for players when they were young and still not really established. This is not like Barca buying Turan, or Real buying Isco. They bought a prospect from a Serie A and Serie B side. It was an investment which could have gone either way

Nah, Han you're completely off about all of this.

1) On Bayern

Götze played this season almost regularly; it's Guardiolas rotation system that needs such players, even if Ribery and Robben are fit. Lewandowski came in and Madžukić out, I don't see how they signed Lewa just for the sake of it? But in the big picture, Bayern always mixed plenty of homegrown talent (from Kohler to Badstuber and Lahm, Jeremies to Kroos, etc.) with buys like Lucio or Ballack. But they never raided the league just for the sake of having these players - all key buys like Lucio, Ballack, Ze Roberto, Kovač, etc. had crucial roles.

But the main thing you miss, probably because you're not into the Bundesliga; there's a key difference: Juventus-Milan, Milan-Juventus, etc. transfers are more rare because of the rivalry. Only out of commodity did the Inter-Milan and vice versa transfers start to become more regular. But to leave Milan for say Juventus was and still is a bit odd, especially for key players.

That's different in Germany. The traditional clubs like München 1860, Eintracht, Nürenberg and HSV all play minor roles in the last decade(s). The newly established stronger clubs like Wolfsburg, Leverkusen, etc. have no particular tradition of rivalry, so it+s more natural for Bayern to sing their players, even star players. Now Dortmund is an exemption. Bayern did not shop with Dortmund right until Götze and now Lewa. And like I said, with Guardiola things started to change. The Bayern prior to that was different, you need to have more insight to know this.

2) On Milan

I'd like nothing more then find another bad aspect of our recent affairs but, in all honesty, let's revise your statement.


You say this like Darmian is a good example, but in all honesty it's a fluke. One good out of many bad. Look at the various players like Verdi, Grimi, Marzorati, etc. etc. Darmian, who Tennie called from day one as I recall a big potential, never impressed me with his various ventures, for example at Palermo. Only recently he's been rediscovered and I'm still not sure if it's just a good season or two or if he's really reached the highest level. But you cannot base your theory on one player, and that's what you have here. Maybe one and a half with Paloschi considered (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

1) No I'm no expert on the Bundesliga, but this has nothing to do with rivalries or what not. You think if Juve came in with a mega offer for one of our or Inter's players we wouldn't jump on it? Because that's what Bayern do. My point does not go into that technicality, just that Bayern simply buys the best talents out of its own league which usually leaves them the only option for that title. Barca and Real both do this as well. Simple as that really.

Goetze was just an example, I really don't think they needed him all that much. And Mandzukic was sold because they saw an opportunity to get Lewandowski. Juve's best players and backbone are players that came from teams in other leagues

Vidal, Barzagli, Pogba, Tevez, Morata, Chiellini and Marchisio coming through their own system. Others who are very important and they bought from teams within the league are Buffon, Bonucci and Licthsteiner, and none came from a direct rival for the title


2) Yes, Darmian is just one example. How about Boriello then? Sent him out on loan after loan after loan, and co-owned him here and there, only to pay 10m for just half of his contract after that co-own. How is that smart? Has Boriello ever been worth 20m FFS?

I get why certain things happen, sometimes the patience to wait out a player isn't there, but at least if he shows any sign of being potentially decent enough to be a starter for any Serie A side (from a bottom to a top side), handle him smartly. Look at Abate for example. We sent him here and there many times, but we brought him back because we still owned him and he was doing well at Toro.

Granted and just to be fair, the co-ownership system did tie the hands of the big clubs in this respect and I'm glad it's been abolished

[Fillipo Simone]

1) No I'm no expert on the Bundesliga, but this has nothing to do with rivalries or what not. You think if Juve came in with a mega offer for one of our or Inter's players we wouldn't jump on it? Because that's what Bayern do. My point does not go into that technicality, just that Bayern simply buys the best talents out of its own league which usually leaves them the only option for that title. Barca and Real both do this as well. Simple as that really.

Goetze was just an example, I really don't think they needed him all that much. And Mandzukic was sold because they saw an opportunity to get Lewandowski. Juve's best players and backbone are players that came from teams in other leagues

Vidal, Barzagli, Pogba, Tevez, Morata, Chiellini and Marchisio coming through their own system. Others who are very important and they bought from teams within the league are Buffon, Bonucci and Licthsteiner, and none came from a direct rival for the title

You're basically building your case around Götze and Lewandowski, because other then that you've got nothing, han. But you're again wrong. Bayern do not make mega offers, they buy the strongest Bundesliga players, almost never breaking the bank:

The Kovač brothers came in for only circa €14 Million, Pizzaro for €8.2 Million back in 2001; Ballack costed them €6 Million and Ze Roberto €9 Million, Lucio and Klose about €12M each. All the while players like Lahm or Kroos came out of their youth system and were loaned and brought back at a certain age, just like your precious and noble Juventus (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

My main point is this: English clubs and Italian clubs don't trade players with such ease between them because of the traditional rivalries (but things like the RvP deal happen). But all league champions do raid their own league in order to strengthen themselves and at the same time weaken the oppositions to a degree. Juventus nowadays isn't particularly signing players from Serie A because in all honesty they ain't that good and overpriced. Why did you forget to mention Pirlo, a key signing for their first breakthrough? It also happened withing the league. Just like they signed Chiellini as well (not like you said from their "own system", whatever that means). Then you have the various players of Emerson (Roma), Salas (Lazio), Nedved (Lazio), Thuram (Parma), Cannavaro (Inter), Melo (Fiorentina), Vučinić (Roma), etc.

What makes Barcelona and Real different from all the other examples is that they actually buy the competitors best players off and then rarely play them. They virtually buy just for the sake of buying them. Bayern just up until recently never did that.

2) Yes, Darmian is just one example. How about Boriello then? Sent him out on loan after loan after loan, and co-owned him here and there, only to pay 10m for just half of his contract after that co-own. How is that smart? Has Boriello ever been worth 20m FFS?

I get why certain things happen, sometimes the patience to wait out a player isn't there, but at least if he shows any sign of being potentially decent enough to be a starter for any Serie A side (from a bottom to a top side), handle him smartly. Look at Abate for example. We sent him here and there many times, but we brought him back because we still owned him and he was doing well at Toro.

Granted and just to be fair, the co-ownership system did tie the hands of the big clubs in this respect and I'm glad it's been abolished

Well, you see, mentioning Borriello shows how deep (or in fact the opposite) this goes. Borriello is nothing special, we lost some money on him, but all in all it's a deal Juventus usually makes for their players, which you still consider okay.

Bottom line remains the same: I don't think we played extremely stupid with our youth products because pretty much all of them turned out bad, starting with Donati and Donadel and moving on to several others.

[Fillipo Simone]

Oh, and han, you'll be thrilled about this one. I read at Milannews after a lengthily interview with Mauro Tassotti that his new role will be to follow Milan loan players and evaluate their progress, so that future Darmians don't happen. Happy?

[han2503]

You're basically building your case around Götze and Lewandowski, because other then that you've got nothing, han. But you're again wrong. Bayern do not make mega offers, they buy the strongest Bundesliga players, almost never breaking the bank:

The Kovač brothers came in for only circa €14 Million, Pizzaro for €8.2 Million back in 2001; Ballack costed them €6 Million and Ze Roberto €9 Million, Lucio and Klose about €12M each. All the while players like Lahm or Kroos came out of their youth system and were loaned and brought back at a certain age, just like your precious and noble Juventus (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

My main point is this: English clubs and Italian clubs don't trade players with such ease between them because of the traditional rivalries (but things like the RvP deal happen). But all league champions do raid their own league in order to strengthen themselves and at the same time weaken the oppositions to a degree. Juventus nowadays isn't particularly signing players from Serie A because in all honesty they ain't that good and overpriced. Why did you forget to mention Pirlo, a key signing for their first breakthrough? It also happened withing the league. Just like they signed Chiellini as well (not like you said from their "own system", whatever that means). Then you have the various players of Emerson (Roma), Salas (Lazio), Nedved (Lazio), Thuram (Parma), Cannavaro (Inter), Melo (Fiorentina), Vučinić (Roma), etc.

What makes Barcelona and Real different from all the other examples is that they actually buy the competitors best players off and then rarely play them. They virtually buy just for the sake of buying them. Bayern just up until recently never did that.

I think you just answered your own question when you listed al those players. Also taking into account that in the early 00s transfer sums hadn't exploded to the kind of numbers we're seeing nowadays.

And yes, Goetze is just one example that I'm familiar with, like I already admitted, I'm no expert on the Bundersliga, I just know that Bayern have been buying out the leagues best players for years now.

From the list of players you mentioned that Juve bought over the years, only Canna was from a direct rival and competitor for the title.

I'm not saying that Juve don't do it, or that Chelsea Man City and United don't either, just not to the extend that the Spanish duo and Bayern do.

As for Pirlo, he was a free agent when Juve signed him, he had nothing to do with us by that point we had already done more than enough to burn those bridges on our own

Well, you see, mentioning Borriello shows how deep (or in fact the opposite) this goes. Borriello is nothing special, we lost some money on him, but all in all it's a deal Juventus usually makes for their players, which you still consider okay.

Bottom line remains the same: I don't think we played extremely stupid with our youth products because pretty much all of them turned out bad, starting with Donati and Donadel and moving on to several others.

Yes, the number of examples one can provide is very limited, but at the end of the day we did end up losing a youth product of our own who's now worth a lot of money, same with Boriello no matter how terrible he is we did stupidly pay 10m to buy out half his contract.

Oh, and han, you'll be thrilled about this one. I read at Milannews after a lengthily interview with Mauro Tassotti that his new role will be to follow Milan loan players and evaluate their progress, so that future Darmians don't happen. Happy?

Ecstatic (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Yes, I seriously am. Situations like this shouldn't happen imo

[Fillipo Simone]

Man, you're stubborn. Okay, let's say we solved that youth discussion.

The prizes Bayern paid for Ballack for example who lead Germany to the final or WC champs like Roberto and Lucio are very meager compared to the prizes Real spent that very summer. How can you still put Bayern in the same basket?

Your argument about Juventus is not solid, in fact, you should know: to be objective means to apply the same rules to all compared elements. Now, you say you don't know much about the Bundesliga but you claim Bayern sings more players right from the opposition, more then Juventus, United or Chelsea.

About Juventus in particularly...man do you know what you're saying? Only Canna was signed off from a direct opponent? Be honest man. Juventus signed Buffon from Parma when they were 4th, competing for the title. Same happened with Nedved and Salas for Lazio who ended up 3rd in the season prior the transfers. That's not direct rivals to you? Nah man, you lost me here.

[Danny]

Man, you're stubborn.

(IMG:http://www.cbc.ca/strombo/content/images/mj-popcorn.gif)

[han2503]

Man, you're stubborn. Okay, let's say we solved that youth discussion.

The prizes Bayern paid for Ballack for example who lead Germany to the final or WC champs like Roberto and Lucio are very meager compared to the prizes Real spent that very summer. How can you still put Bayern in the same basket?

Your argument about Juventus is not solid, in fact, you should know: to be objective means to apply the same rules to all compared elements. Now, you say you don't know much about the Bundesliga but you claim Bayern sings more players right from the opposition, more then Juventus, United or Chelsea.

About Juventus in particularly...man do you know what you're saying? Only Canna was signed off from a direct opponent? Be honest man. Juventus signed Buffon from Parma when they were 4th, competing for the title. Same happened with Nedved and Salas for Lazio who ended up 3rd in the season prior the transfers. That's not direct rivals to you? Nah man, you lost me here.

what does it matter how much they paid? The point is they pretty much signed all their important players from within the league, thus continually strengthening their own team while weakening the rest of the league. If you don't see that as problematic and similar to what Barca and Real do than we should stop here. Because I don't know what else we can say.

And I said from the start that I'm no Bundesliga expert, but you don't have to be one to see the pattern here. I don't really care all that much about the history of the rivalries between the German clubs, I don't really care for German clubs in general tbh. But just because I don't watch the football, doesn't mean that I can't read or have general knowledge about the transfer history of the German league or Bayern more specifically

And I shall repeat. I never said that Juve don't do it. From the very first post, I said Juve also do it to an extent. And players from Parma and Lazio? It's not like they came in and bought Sheva off us just because it stroke their fancy back in the day when money in Serie A was abundant. Actually we did that with Pippo off them during those times, not the other way around.

[Fillipo Simone]

what does it matter how much they paid? The point is they pretty much signed all their important players from within the league, thus continually strengthening their own team while weakening the rest of the league. If you don't see that as problematic and similar to what Barca and Real do than we should stop here. Because I don't know what else we can say.

I think it matters if they signed someone for free, for a reasonable sum or like Barcelona did with Arda Turan. He clearly isn't worth the money, yet they did it - so to say just for the sake of it. That's why Real and Barcelona go IMO in a slightly different group, because they sign opposition players and they don't need.

I see a pattern, but I repeat, it's a patter all league contenders and champions follow. You seem to have a reason why you separate Bayern, Barcelona and Real, but from the arguments you've shown so far your reasoning isn't either quantifiable nor does it contain facts.

And I said from the start that I'm no Bundesliga expert, but you don't have to be one to see the pattern here. I don't really care all that much about the history of the rivalries between the German clubs, I don't really care for German clubs in general tbh. But just because I don't watch the football, doesn't mean that I can't read or have general knowledge about the transfer history of the German league or Bayern more specifically

Fair enough. But let's turn the other side then. I think it is the medias and the rivalries that prevent such transfers to happen in England that often. But in other countries? Take any good team with a continuity of winning the domestic league. Now, if that league is very good and competition like Serie A in the 90's and 00's, or the Bundesliga around 00's, it's only natural for teams to do so.

And I shall repeat. I never said that Juve don't do it. From the very first post, I said Juve also do it to an extent. And players from Parma and Lazio? It's not like they came in and bought Sheva off us just because it stroke their fancy back in the day when money in Serie A was abundant. Actually we did that with Pippo off them during those times, not the other way around.

Don't you think they would have taken off Sheva if they could? What prevented them is 1) Sheva's loyalty and happiness at Milan, 2) our rivalry with Juventus and the fact that we didn't have to sell him

But why do you discard Parma and Lazio? Shevchenko has nothing to do with it.

Oh and now that you mention Inzaghi. Yes, Milan also did that. Inzaghi, Baggio and a few others pop instantly in my mind.