[vnata001]

Should we keep believing in Seedorf and Gattuso then? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Fillipo, can you please offer a response to this question?

You say you don't trust them because they aren't tested. Well then doesn't that logically beg the question: Why not test them to see if we can trust them? You've seen the results when we've played our "tested" players.

And this term "Milan quality" really needs to be dissected a little bit. How can you be making claims that Flamini is not "Milan quality" when you admit that our coaches haven't given him a chance? Not too long ago, Flamini was "Arsenal quality" and that Arsenal side in which he played an important role in romped all over our "Milan quality" in the San Siro under the Carlo the great, no less.

The "milan quality" you want would involve breaking the bank for pastore and hamsik. We're not going to do that. And we need not look any further than the RESULTS of the coaches whose keen eye for talent you site in your rationale as to why Flamini isn't worth the fuss. Its the same bunch that overplayed Emerson and Brocchi, failed the talents of Gourcuff and Hunter, and have overseen our team during a 3 year period of relative mediocrity. Obviously for all their trusty talent-appraising abilities, they certainly have not always been right. They are not above criticism.

Some of us in the forum have been calling it as its happened over the years, and what's happening now with Seedorf and Rino is no different from previous instances of mismanagement.

This post has been edited by vnata001: Oct 21 2010, 06:24 AM

[Bluesummers]

Fillipo, can you please offer a response to this?

You say you don't trust them because they aren't tested. Well then doesn't that logically beg the question: Why not test them to see if we can trust them? You've seen the results when we've played our "tested" players.

I'll give you my response; allegri likes our tested players because they've touched the.....



GOLDEN ONE!


(IMG:http://footballforums.com/blogs/mario/attachments/12d1233346238-david-beckham-posterior-pinched-andrea-pirlo-clarence-seedorf-796209_biglandscape.jpg)

[han2503]

Look, I can buy the story that Ancelotti got used to his pals Ambro, Rino and Seedorf. I can even buy the story that Leo must have been under some Carletto impression. But three coaches Milan had in 3 years didn't select this guy. And you ask me why I don't trust him?

I just can't come to the conclusion that you and me see Flamini better then those three guys. And I can't call them stupid, because they just aren't.

Anyway - IMO Flamini is not a player Milan should regard as a starter under normal conditions. Now, it would be logicall to play him, but as soon as we will be able to bring in someone new, he should be replaced. As I said, I belive that the fact that 3 coaches put him aside must mean something more then just an undisciplined and untested potential.

Like vnata said, those 3 coaches have their reasons for not playing Flamini and imo the only one that can be slightly excused is Leo because Ambro was great last season, but only for part of it, why? because he was playing every 3 days and again he's not 23, so obviously he got burned out quickly. Carlo had his fixed 5 in midfield and never strayed from it no matter what, he let Gourcuff rot, he let Flamini rot in favour of playing a disinterested Seedorf and Rino and Ambo every week. Leo imo was too afraid to move away from his regular 11, that's why we suffered so much when players got injured and Leo had to make changes and Allegri is just the same, he's either too afraid or too stubborn. I think he's partly both, he's afraid of what will happen if he turns his back on the old guard that has such a big influence on this team.

Imo you don't want to see Flamini and Boateng playing and can't accept that they're quality player because you know that them getting a strong hold in this team would mean the end of our beloved old gaurd. And I can't ever agree that Seedorf and Rino are now better then Flamini and Boateng. 5Maybe if they were 5 years younger then I would say the other 2 don't hold a candle to them but that is not the case, they're barely players anymore, Seedorf has been shocking these past few weeks. He just completely faids out of games before we even hit the HT break, how is that the better choice then playing someone like Boateng?

Fillipo, can you please offer a response to this question?

You say you don't trust them because they aren't tested. Well then doesn't that logically beg the question: Why not test them to see if we can trust them? You've seen the results when we've played our "tested" players.

And this term "Milan quality" really needs to be dissected a little bit. How can you be making claims that Flamini is not "Milan quality" when you admit that our coaches haven't given him a chance? Not too long ago, Flamini was "Arsenal quality" and that Arsenal side in which he played an important role in romped all over our "Milan quality" in the San Siro under the Carlo the great, no less.

The "milan quality" you want would involve breaking the bank for pastore and hamsik. We're not going to do that. And we need not look any further than the RESULTS of the coaches whose keen eye for talent you site in your rationale as to why Flamini isn't worth the fuss. Its the same bunch that overplayed Emerson and Brocchi, failed the talents of Gourcuff and Hunter, and have overseen our team during a 3 year period of relative mediocrity. Obviously for all their trusty talent-appraising abilities, they certainly have not always been right. They are not above criticism.

Some of us in the forum have been calling it as its happened over the years, and what's happening now with Seedorf and Rino is no different from previous instances of mismanagement.

Great, great post!!

[acid911]

Fillipo, can you please offer a response to this question?

You say you don't trust them because they aren't tested. Well then doesn't that logically beg the question: Why not test them to see if we can trust them? You've seen the results when we've played our "tested" players.

And this term "Milan quality" really needs to be dissected a little bit. How can you be making claims that Flamini is not "Milan quality" when you admit that our coaches haven't given him a chance? Not too long ago, Flamini was "Arsenal quality" and that Arsenal side in which he played an important role in romped all over our "Milan quality" in the San Siro under the Carlo the great, no less.

The "milan quality" you want would involve breaking the bank for pastore and hamsik. We're not going to do that. And we need not look any further than the RESULTS of the coaches whose keen eye for talent you site in your rationale as to why Flamini isn't worth the fuss. Its the same bunch that overplayed Emerson and Brocchi, failed the talents of Gourcuff and Hunter, and have overseen our team during a 3 year period of relative mediocrity. Obviously for all their trusty talent-appraising abilities, they certainly have not always been right. They are not above criticism.

Some of us in the forum have been calling it as its happened over the years, and what's happening now with Seedorf and Rino is no different from previous instances of mismanagement.

Oh boy, you're in great form, vnata! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/king.gif) Awesome post once again, and love the shoutout to 'Carlo teh Great'.

And frankly though there is no such thing as Milan quality. It existed a few years back, when we could stand hand to head with other big clubs and matched them blow for blow (if not in spending prowess, then on the pitch). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Now we can't even gather steam, let alone run out of it. And the reason for that is a disjointed team. Remember what I said a few months back, that B&G just plastered the squad by bringing in Ibra and Robino. The underlying problems and cracks are still there.

And they will, unless we get adequate replacements next season or two. They missed a trick by missing out on VdV, Hernanes, and Krasic. Frankly I'd have taken any of those three as opposed to Robinho (good player I know, but I've got a feeling he may under deliver). Robin is cover for our attackers, not the answer to our problems: the aging midfield and the static right flank.

[vnata001]

Oh boy, you're in great form, vnata! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/king.gif) Awesome post once again, and love the shoutout to 'Carlo teh Great'.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/thumbup.gif) "i am experiencing a beautiful moment right now. There is great serenity here. I am really enjoying my posting. I have to thank my forum-mates. Hopefully I can keep it up. I want to prove my class, and show that this form is not just temporary" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh2.gif)

ok maybe that was lame.

This post has been edited by vnata001: Oct 21 2010, 09:37 AM

[acid911]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) Yeah, sort of like the Oscar acceptance speech at the Academy Awards, LOL!

[vnata001]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) Yeah, sort of like the Oscar acceptance speech at the Academy Awards, LOL!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I was going for one of those sort of cheesy Kaka-like interview soundbites.

[Fillipo Simone]

Fillipo, can you please offer a response to this question?

You say you don't trust them because they aren't tested. Well then doesn't that logically beg the question: Why not test them to see if we can trust them? You've seen the results when we've played our "tested" players.

And this term "Milan quality" really needs to be dissected a little bit. How can you be making claims that Flamini is not "Milan quality" when you admit that our coaches haven't given him a chance? Not too long ago, Flamini was "Arsenal quality" and that Arsenal side in which he played an important role in romped all over our "Milan quality" in the San Siro under the Carlo the great, no less.

The "milan quality" you want would involve breaking the bank for pastore and hamsik. We're not going to do that. And we need not look any further than the RESULTS of the coaches whose keen eye for talent you site in your rationale as to why Flamini isn't worth the fuss. Its the same bunch that overplayed Emerson and Brocchi, failed the talents of Gourcuff and Hunter, and have overseen our team during a 3 year period of relative mediocrity. Obviously for all their trusty talent-appraising abilities, they certainly have not always been right. They are not above criticism.

Some of us in the forum have been calling it as its happened over the years, and what's happening now with Seedorf and Rino is no different from previous instances of mismanagement.

Gee, I don't understand this...did anyone read my post? I intentionally let out the phrase "Milan quality" because I knew the moment I use it someone will jump on me, but the same happens. Sorry to spoil your theory, but look again I haven't used it.

I said I don't think Flamini is good enough to be a regular Milan player. I don't care how well he was playing years ago, I don't think he would be a regular in Arsenla as well.

And why do you push me to answer a question I've already answered to? Should we keep believing in Seedorf and Gattuso then? No, no, no, no, no, no and no. Enough? Once more: we should now give a chance to Boateng and Flamini, but as I don't think they'll shine and convince us we have a permanent substitution for our former star players, we will be forced to bring in new blood.

[Jack Sparrow]

No we cannot keep faith...but what are our options. We talk of Merkel and Strasser like we've seen them play. The people who make the teams probably see them play every day in training. I think the day Strasser and Merkel outperform Rino and Seedorf in training they'll surely see a start. That the day has not come is the common-sense option. That Rino and Seedorf are still playing just coz they somehow become best friends with every coach who comes in...is another plausible option. But I'll use Occam's razor.

In a 21st century war, if on the battlefield the only replacement for your old six shooter is a battle club you're better off with the six shooters. Doesn't matter...the enemy's guns will still shoot you down...

Damn ...I'm cynical today! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[vnata001]

Gee, I don't understand this...did anyone read my post? I intentionally let out the phrase "Milan quality" because I knew the moment I use it someone will jump on me, but the same happens. Sorry to spoil your theory, but look again I haven't used it.

Okay, well excuse me for being overly presumptuous? When you claim that they should not be starters for Milan, just because this time you didn't use the words "milan quality" (words you have written with regards to Flamini in the past), it's still quite clear what you mean.

I said I don't think Flamini is good enough to be a regular Milan player. I don't care how well he was playing years ago, I don't think he would be a regular in Arsenla as well.

And why do you push me to answer a question I've already answered to? Should we keep believing in Seedorf and Gattuso then? No, no, no, no, no, no and no. Enough? Once more: we should now give a chance to Boateng and Flamini, but as I don't think they'll shine and convince us we have a permanent substitution for our former star players, we will be forced to bring in new blood.

Nobody is saying they're the new Albertini and Rijkaard. There is a tangible amount of excitement though at the improvement they will provide over Rino and Seedorf (in the time to follow). Yet you would rather criticize them for not being what Seedorf and Rino were 5 years ago without even seeing them given a run in the team? Before you've even given Boateng and Flamini a fair chance you're ready to write them off, like Gourcuff was by us not long ago, without a fair chance. For you to say that about them when they haven't been given a proper chance is completely and utterly unfounded.

No we cannot keep faith...but what are our options.

Change our playing style to suit our personnel! we don't need the new seedorf and Gattuso. We need a tactician to make the best of the personnel we have. We still have the talent in our roster to form a product on the pitch that is Scudetto and CL Semi worthy! It will mean changing our identity, being pragmatic, and utilizing the qualities we do have. In certain tactical schemes, we don't need Seedorf and Rino on the field at all, yet still find success. Hard for some romantics to internalize, but still true.

This post has been edited by vnata001: Oct 21 2010, 12:07 PM

[acid911]

I was going for one of those sort of cheesy Kaka-like interview soundbites.

It has that ring to it, agreed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) Or should I say, cheese to it. LOL!

[Jack Sparrow]

Change our playing style to suit our personnel! we don't need the new seedorf and Gattuso. We need a tactician to make the best of the personnel we have. We still have the talent in our roster to form a product on the pitch that is Scudetto and CL Semi worthy! It will mean changing our identity, being pragmatic, and utilizing the qualities we do have. In certain tactical schemes, we don't need Seedorf and Rino on the field at all, yet still find success. Hard for some romantics to internalize, but still true.

Not as easy as that I think. Your first sentence. I'm sure it's the easiest thing in the world to set our team out in a 4-5-1 and lump in long balls to Ibra and eventually we'd win. But then we'd crib about hhow much we suck. And the management will give him hell.

Allegri has one of the toughest directives possible for any manager. Win while playing beautiful. It's what got mourinho fired at Chelsea as you know.

Being pragmatic? They wouldn't have hired Allegri if they wanted a functional Milan side. Our big boss wants fantasy.


And to get fantasy you're needing to have every player in the XI playing in their best position. Like at Barca.

So our formation must for :

DEFENCE:

Abbiati: Not have too many high balls coming into the box.
Nesta: No forwards allowed to run at him at pace
Silva: Enough cover, so he can bomb forward and distribute
Luca Antonini: Freedom to go forward, while not being challenged to defend from a positional perspective
Zambrotta: His lack of pace mustn't be exploited, team must make room for him to get into shooting positions

MID:

Rino: Not expected to run forward too much. And must always have a short passing option available.
Pirlo: Can cut space, but musn't be pushed back too much to defend. Needs to have the whole team making intelligent runs.
Seedorf: Cannot be expected to play as pure box-to-box, must be allowed to play in an more advanced creative mid position...setting the tempo of the attack in the opponent's half.
Ronaldinho: Ball played to feet, plenty of passing options, strikers moving defenders out of position, and shouldn't be expected to track back and pressure.
Robinho: Pretty much the same as above.
KPB: Will leave gaps, and his positioning is suspect. Must be given freedom to join in attack.
Flamini: Must be given enough outlets to spend his energy, because he brings not a lot else. Our only true utility player.
Abate: Cannot defend, Cannot dribble, Can run, can cross a bit, can pressure a bit. 4-5-1 formation only??

FORWARDS:

Pato: Not a complete forward. Good pace, good dribble, good finishing. Bad decision making. Needs a direct path to goal.
Ibra: Complete forward. Can play with back to goal, with ball to feet. But needs to be fed all the time and given passing and shooting options. Can't really pressure hard. Not that kind of energy level.
Pippo: Keep serving it to him in and just around the box and have enough bodies in there to keep the defenders occupied so as let him sneak in. He's an assassin not a soldier.

****************

K. This will do for a start. Now sit around and try making a formation that will suit all these players to a T. A single stable formation that will also ensure player inclusions and that everyone gets adequate playing time. The new Berlusconi boys will also have to get enough time to play. They must also look good when doing so.

Think hard about it.

You know what I think?

No... we don't have the personnel to give the results that are expected of us. It's not changing the tactics to suit the personnel. We can't. The players will have to change to suit the tactics...and that is a big problem. Especially with the veteran squad. That thing about old dogs and new tricks.

[amancik]

Massimiliano Allegri will wield the axe after Tuesday's 2-0 defeat to Real Madrid in the Champions League.

Thursday 21 October, 2010
Milan set for revolution

La Gazzetta dello Sport understands Allegri feels that the attacking formation Milan have recently used is no longer sustainable, especially at the highest level.

No one is untouchable as far as Allegri is concerned, as he now seeks to line up a more balanced starting XI.

This appears to bring an end to seeing Zlatan Ibrahimovic, Alexandre Pato, Ronaldinho and Clarence Seedorf all playing together from the start.

Il Corriere della Sera believes Seedorf or Ronaldinho are at risk of spending more time on the bench because of their lack of dynamism.

Mathieu Flamini and Kevin-Prince Boateng are being readied for this weekend's clash with Napoli precisely because of their stamina and running ability.

It remains to be seen how Milan patron Silvio Berlusconi digests Allegri's plans to tone down the team in terms of attack.

Berlusconi has repeatedly expressed his belief that all of Milan's attacking players can be on the pitch at the same time.

Source: Football Italia

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I may be one of the few who still believe Allegri has something more than what most of you currently see. If this piece of news turns out to be true, then you may be proved wrong with you early conclusions about this guy. I believe all this while, he's been pressured to play all the stars together. However, this left the team severely handicapped as proved in Madrid. So after the beating we took in Madrid, I think he will finally create a balanced team that will compete far in both competitions. As most of us have noted, Flamini and Boateng are the ones who should be regulars; while Gattuso and Seedorf would make great subs.

[han2503]

Massimiliano Allegri will wield the axe after Tuesday's 2-0 defeat to Real Madrid in the Champions League.

Thursday 21 October, 2010
Milan set for revolution

La Gazzetta dello Sport understands Allegri feels that the attacking formation Milan have recently used is no longer sustainable, especially at the highest level.

No one is untouchable as far as Allegri is concerned, as he now seeks to line up a more balanced starting XI.

This appears to bring an end to seeing Zlatan Ibrahimovic, Alexandre Pato, Ronaldinho and Clarence Seedorf all playing together from the start.

Il Corriere della Sera believes Seedorf or Ronaldinho are at risk of spending more time on the bench because of their lack of dynamism.

Mathieu Flamini and Kevin-Prince Boateng are being readied for this weekend's clash with Napoli precisely because of their stamina and running ability.

It remains to be seen how Milan patron Silvio Berlusconi digests Allegri's plans to tone down the team in terms of attack.

Berlusconi has repeatedly expressed his belief that all of Milan's attacking players can be on the pitch at the same time.

Source: Football Italia

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I may be one of the few who still believe Allegri has something more than what most of you currently see. If this piece of news turns out to be true, then you may be proved wrong with you early conclusions about this guy. I believe all this while, he's been pressured to play all the stars together. However, this left the team severely handicapped as proved in Madrid. So after the beating we took in Madrid, I think he will finally create a balanced team that will compete far in both competitions. As most of us have noted, Flamini and Boateng are the ones who should be regulars; while Gattuso and Seedorf would make great subs.

He's still seemingly ignoring The Rino issue, Rino is not able to play for longer then 60 minutes at a good level. That's another big issue.

As for the attack. If he's going to drop Dinho he still can't keep Seedorf in there, imo he's our biggest problem. Robinho needs to play, and not Seedorf in the hole behind the strikers. That would be even worse

[Dracoris]

(IMG:http://this11.com/boards/1287683657684452.jpg)


This is our best formation. The usage of the two young speedy players free up both Pirlo and Ronaldinho. Sure, Dinho played poorly but to call him the worst player is a stretch of bias. Seedorf was clearly the reason we failed in that game. Allowed a goal and failed to score a sitter as well as giving the appearance of playing with a piano on his back. Taking him and Rino out for Prince and Flamini drastically improves our speed as well as gives us an increase in skill IMO. No excuse not to line up with this formation.

This post has been edited by Dracoris: Oct 21 2010, 06:57 PM