[acid911]

Gazzetta.it have the xmas tree with Seedorf and Dinho supporting Pato as the predicted line up, expect a draw if this is the case.

I'd actually feel lucky if we drew. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) Thank you, please drive through.

[acid911]

Y'know, I don't have a problem with people disliking the coach's choices - I don't like 'em some of the time either - but the namecalling is getting a little old.

Neither do I, Tennie. Nor anyone else for that matter. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) I don't like to say anything bad about anything that's got to do with Milan. But some of his choices are directly affecting our game. He's not the only one to blame, but a big part of it falls on Carlo. Seeing Juve play like that yesterday in the rain, scoring goals at will, when we had a hard time against Reggina 2-1.

It's just not acceptable. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sleep.gif) Not the least because we have a much better squad than Juve.

[Tennie]

Well, y'know what, a team isn't going to play perfect football every single game, acid. There are times when they're going to grind out results. If I remember correctly, Milan's been grinding out results fairly consitently and hasn't actually lost a game since September. Last year, we probably would have lost some/most of those games that were draws too. Blaming Ancelotti exclusively for most of the 'bland play' is, to me, incorrect. You've got to look at the players first. And if you do that, you see that some of them are not playing well at all or are very inconsistent in their performances (for example Kaka, even though I expect I'll be pilloried for daring to criticize him).

Pointing at Juve's blizzard-game, well, I find it amusing because Juve have been raked over the coals far more than Milan this year in the Italian media about their low goalscoring record.

As for the lineup, I'd prefer two strikers and one DM but eh. I actually trust the coach to know what he's doing. I'm glad to see Kaka sit this one out too as he's just been really poor in the last few games.

[Zed.D]

Just a few questions Tennie:

Why do we keep comparing this season's Milan to the last season's Milan? yes, we've improved compared to a season in which we couldn't even finish top four. but is that a big deal? I've said before, seeing Milan in the 2nd place is misleading people in their judgments. it's a matter of time before we start falling down the table with this football we're playing (IMO).

As for the lineup, I'd prefer two strikers and one DM but eh. I actually trust the coach to know what he's doing. I'm glad to see Kaka sit this one out too as he's just been really poor in the last few games.

We both know if Kaka hadn't been suspended, he would have played this one (please, don't say he wouldn't have). also we both admit Kaka hasn't been brilliant recently. then how does Carlo know what he's doing? you say Kaka has been poor, on the other hand you say you actually trust the Carlo knows what he's doing. that is one tiny question mark for me...


I had written in my sig that 'we will not win the Scudetto because of' some reasons, one of them was
"Carlo's lack of courage". not daring to bench Kaka [other than when he's not fit or suspended] is one of them. not daring to change a formation that clearly doesn't work in the league is another. not daring to stop fielding a lot of DMs in my eyes is yet another, etc.

You've got to look at the players first. And if you do that, you see that some of them are not playing well at all or are very inconsistent in their performances (for example Kaka, even though I expect I'll be pilloried for daring to criticize him).

Again, why doesn't the coach bench those who are not giving 100%? he doesn't have alternatives on the bench? I'd hardly believe that...

This post has been edited by zdrossoneri: Nov 30 2008, 01:31 PM

[acid911]

Now all we need is a good, lengthy Han post. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/innocent.gif)

[han2503]

Y'know, I don't have a problem with people disliking the coach's choices - I don't like 'em some of the time either - but the namecalling is getting a little old.

That said, Mediaset is at least reporting a centerback pairing of Bonera-Maldini, which I find more comforting than one that includes any Georgians.

I'd prefer something like:
Abbiati
Zambrotta Bonera Maldini Jankulovski
Ambrosini Pirlo Seedorf
Ronaldinho
Pato Pippo

Unfortunately, it sounds like we'll see the christmas tree with no Pippo and Flamini in the midfield.

I'd prefer Sheva to start and Pippo to sub him with 30 minutes to go. But I agree with all the other choices and firmly believe that should we start with that formation we'd win easily however, with the most likely formation being the xmas tree and with Kaka not even playing and Seedorf being up there I predict a hard fought draw, and struggling to even come near to creating any chances

Well, y'know what, a team isn't going to play perfect football every single game, acid. There are times when they're going to grind out results. If I remember correctly, Milan's been grinding out results fairly consitently and hasn't actually lost a game since September. Last year, we probably would have lost some/most of those games that were draws too. Blaming Ancelotti exclusively for most of the 'bland play' is, to me, incorrect. You've got to look at the players first. And if you do that, you see that some of them are not playing well at all or are very inconsistent in their performances (for example Kaka, even though I expect I'll be pilloried for daring to criticize him).

Pointing at Juve's blizzard-game, well, I find it amusing because Juve have been raked over the coals far more than Milan this year in the Italian media about their low goalscoring record.

As for the lineup, I'd prefer two strikers and one DM but eh. I actually trust the coach to know what he's doing. I'm glad to see Kaka sit this one out too as he's just been really poor in the last few games.

I believe the opposite thing Tennie, a team performing badly when they choose to like Milan have or because of the tactics the coach implements, tactics that have been tried over and over and over again in the domestic league and are proven as complete failures, then I have attribute the recent performances to the coach.

For example against both Toro and Lecce we play well we get the lead and then suddenly everything drops and everyone is doing nothing but defending expecting the win to come now that we have the lead, or in practically all the games how we've struggled to score goals because of always coming out with the same formation and approach to a match and how teams know how to easily block us and even score on us on the counter, we've seen this happen for the past 3 seasons now.

And I'm a firm believer that all of this is because of the coach. Why would the players drop off their performances when they get the lead even if there is more then half a game to play. They try to defend a lead as soon as they get it and usually this ends up backfiring on us. Like I've said probably a million time, what the coach projects to the team week in week out during training will end up reflecting on the pitch and it's clear for all to see the type of mentality our players have, and all this comes from Carlo. And the fact that he knows that something does not work but still keeps on insisting on it every week in every game we play only shows that he's a stubborn @ss that cannot acknowledge the fact that he is in the wrong and should change things.

I've brought up the spalletti example once and I'm going to bring it up again. When Roma were in their crises Spellatti didn't wait 3 seasons to start acknowledging it, he made changes immediately, completely revamped his usual formation and tactics and now Roma are back to winning and also topping their CL group that contains Chelsea after getting off to a disasterous start. To me this is a coach I admire, someone that admits when he makes mistakes and moves on by changing things up. Carlo on the other hand keeps insisting on something that he knows won't work.

Sure we've had players who have been struggling for form, like Kaka who imo, does not deserve any criticism for losing form since he's been carrying this team ever since Sheva left and doing all the work while others around him seem to not give a sh!t for some reason. And why should we depend on Kaka? We have a team full of top class players, Carlo should be able to make it work even with Kaka not at his best. It's like always, Carlo relying on his superstar players to bail him out everytime.

As for Juve, sure no one expects to win every game we play 5-0 or 4-0, like I've always said, sometimes winning a game by grinding it out through determination, is a true mark of champions, but the way we've been playing is the complete opposite of that, we have a lead we switch off. Or the formation is so bad that we can't even break through teams like Reggina because Carlo is still insisting on the xmas tree, something that these types of teams have no problem handling, simply because they know that they only have to block us through the middle and we're completely nullified

This post has been edited by han2503: Nov 30 2008, 01:50 PM

[Fillipo Simone]

Sure we've had players who have been struggling for form, like Kaka who imo, does not deserve any criticism for losing form since he's been carrying this team ever since Sheva left and doing all the work while others around him seem to not give a sh!t for some reason. And why should we depend on Kaka? We have a team full of top class players, Carlo should be able to make it work even with Kaka not at his best. It's like always, Carlo relying on his superstar players to bail him out everytime.

Show me a coach who doesn't.

Bonera, Kaladze, Jankulovski, Favalli, Maldini, Pippo, Brocchi, Ambrosini - they all didn't give a sh@t last year or when Sheva left, they always or more then often show motivation and at least try. I don't say they're good but they tryed. So it's not that EVERYONE gives a sh@t.

are proven as complete failures

As said before, we simply seem to treat the term "complete failure" differently.

I've brought up the spalletti example once and I'm going to bring it up again. When Roma were in their crises Spellatti didn't wait 3 seasons to start acknowledging it, he made changes immediately, completely revamped his usual formation and tactics and now Roma are back to winning and also topping their CL group that contains Chelsea after getting off to a disasterous start. To me this is a coach I admire, someone that admits when he makes mistakes and moves on by changing things up. Carlo on the other hand keeps insisting on something that he knows won't work.

We never fall that deep into trouble like Spalletti in the first place. Now he reshuffled his team and well...ohh..ohh...he won against Cluj! In a very unconvincing, "Milan-Pompey" manner, embaressing manner. Hab would say - all Europe could have a giggle. Wait up. I'm not sure Roma is in renesainse now.

Also, the United debacle, the tragic and bad displays last season when they proved not to be able to compete with Inter, just like we did...I don't see it. At least Ancelotti never got humiliated against Ferguson like Spalletti did...twice.

Why do we keep comparing this season's Milan to the last season's Milan? yes, we've improved compared to a season in which we couldn't even finish top four. but is that a big deal? I've said before, seeing Milan in the 2nd place is misleading people in their judgments. it's a matter of time before we start falling down the table with this football we're playing (IMO).

Your prediction's wrong. Simply wrong. 1) I don't see a team other then Juve who could replace us in 2nd place, 2) we still manage to hold on points and it's not even mid-season, Milan usually get's a extra dosis of motivation in January.

[Tennie]

Okay, my responses in order.

zd, why do you insist on the pessimism in thinking we're going to fall down the table? Pirlo's back, Ronaldinho is hitting form, and traditionally Milan start playing their best football after the winter ritiro.

If Kaka were benched for poor play - and I think he should be - I can only imagine the howls of outrage that would come. It may be a fault of Ancelotti for starting the names even if they play poorly, but if some people point fingers at his insistence on playing 2 DMs, then I'm going to point fingers at him playing a Kaka in sucktastic form. And the thing is, even if he did whatever it is we'd like to see him do, there's no proof at all that it would have any change in the results of games.

As for han's blaming the coach, I'm going to agree to disagree. I think it's as much on the players for laziness and complacency - especially when they've got the lead and switch off - as it is on the coach. I don't think Ancelotti is blameless. I don't think the players are blameless either.

And I'm definitely going to agree to disagree that Kaka is above criticism. Nobody is. Not him, not Maldini, not Ancelotti.

As for making it work without important players, Milan is in second place without having had Pirlo for the majority of the games. That to me is a remarkable achievement and credit for that should go both to the players who've played in unfamiliar roles as well as the coach who's gotten good performances out of (most of) the players.

Now let's suspend the debate, shall we? This is a match thread, it's a game day, and let's look and see how we actually do against Palermo.

[CrazyMilanFan]

Okay, my responses in order.

zd, why do you insist on the pessimism in thinking we're going to fall down the table? Pirlo's back, Ronaldinho is hitting form, and traditionally Milan start playing their best football after the winter ritiro.

If Kaka were benched for poor play - and I think he should be - I can only imagine the howls of outrage that would come. It may be a fault of Ancelotti for starting the names even if they play poorly, but if some people point fingers at his insistence on playing 2 DMs, then I'm going to point fingers at him playing a Kaka in sucktastic form. And the thing is, even if he did whatever it is we'd like to see him do, there's no proof at all that it would have any change in the results of games.

As for han's blaming the coach, I'm going to agree to disagree. I think it's as much on the players for laziness and complacency - especially when they've got the lead and switch off - as it is on the coach. I don't think Ancelotti is blameless. I don't think the players are blameless either.

And I'm definitely going to agree to disagree that Kaka is above criticism. Nobody is. Not him, not Maldini, not Ancelotti.

As for making it work without important players, Milan is in second place without having had Pirlo for the majority of the games. That to me is a remarkable achievement and credit for that should go both to the players who've played in unfamiliar roles as well as the coach who's gotten good performances out of (most of) the players.

Now let's suspend the debate, shall we? This is a match thread, it's a game day, and let's look and see how we actually do against Palermo.

i would like to comment on kaka thing.... pirlo was terrible last year but still very important to milan play and we strugled even more without him and same is with kaka we struggle without him and even if he is not playing at his best he can win games IMO just like pirlo add something extra kaka does it too even if they are not playing to their full potential this has been the case over the last couple of seasons

[han2503]

Show me a coach who doesn't.

Bonera, Kaladze, Jankulovski, Favalli, Maldini, Pippo, Brocchi, Ambrosini - they all didn't give a sh@t last year or when Sheva left, they always or more then often show motivation and at least try. I don't say they're good but they tryed. So it's not that EVERYONE gives a sh@t.

You think Seedorf's, Kaladze's, etc performances showed heart and determination to win matches?? I'm only mentioning these 2 since they are our most complaincent players, but even Pirlo, Rino, Ambro and Pippo had games where they looked like they couldn't give a sh!t these past couple of seasons.

As for a coach who doesn't rely on his star players to bail him out, Scolari doesn't have an iconic player like Milan for example have Kaka, Inter have Ibra, Man U have C.Ron and so on. His team literally plays like a team and most of the goals are constructed as team moves, that's why someone as sh!t as Anelka is able to score the ammounts he's scored this season.

As said before, we simply seem to treat the term "complete failure" differently.

Oh so you classify these last 2 seasons, (one of them in which we didn't qualify for the CL and got spanked by the @rse kids) as a success while playing the xmas tree formation and playing Carlo's ridged tactics? Clearly we don't treat the term complete failure in the same way. Because I call those 2 seasons a disgrace that was brought upon our selves, by both compaicency and bad tactics.

We never fall that deep into trouble like Spalletti in the first place. Now he reshuffled his team and well...ohh..ohh...he won against Cluj! In a very unconvincing, "Milan-Pompey" manner, embaressing manner. Hab would say - all Europe could have a giggle. Wait up. I'm not sure Roma is in renesainse now.

Also, the United debacle, the tragic and bad displays last season when they proved not to be able to compete with Inter, just like we did...I don't see it. At least Ancelotti never got humiliated against Ferguson like Spalletti did...twice.

Roma have come from losing games against relegation teams to humilating Chelsea and winning league games comfortably, all thanks to their coach who admitted he was wrong and changed things around for the team. Something Carlo is still unable to do. Even though his system has gotten found out years ago.

It was Spalletti's first real big match in Europe, he made mistakes, and at least it wasn't Wenger that he got humiliated against (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

As for han's blaming the coach, I'm going to agree to disagree. I think it's as much on the players for laziness and complacency - especially when they've got the lead and switch off - as it is on the coach. I don't think Ancelotti is blameless. I don't think the players are blameless either.

And I'm definitely going to agree to disagree that Kaka is above criticism. Nobody is. Not him, not Maldini, not Ancelotti.

As for making it work without important players, Milan is in second place without having had Pirlo for the majority of the games. That to me is a remarkable achievement and credit for that should go both to the players who've played in unfamiliar roles as well as the coach who's gotten good performances out of (most of) the players.

Why would that get complaicent after getting a lead and try to defend that only? Because it's something that they get from their coach. Don't know if you remember Carlo's Juve Tennie, but it was the same classic case with them under Carlo, don't tell me it's just the players being lazy because a couple of years ago they would have kept playing to score more goals even if we're 5 up.

As for Kaka, I'm not saying don't criticise him at all. I said myself that he's off form right now. But I also said that he cannot be criticised a lot just for not being on form right now after he was one of our only few players really trying hard all of last season and the one before that, even through injury he kept trying. A dip in form is expected and crucifying him for that would be truly unfair. Just like crucifying Paolo for making one mistake in a game a while back is unfair, concidering his age, the fact that he keeps fighting for the team no matter what and the fact that he has to do twice the work since Kaladze is playing alongside him is unfair.

Sure Carlo at times shouldn't play him, but again it's Carlo's choice, I'm sure it won't create the big controvercy you'de think it would, all he needs to do is explain that Kaka needs to sit a couple of games to regain fitness. There's no need to keep playing him constantly now, expecially with the attacking line he has to choose from

i would like to comment on kaka thing.... pirlo was terrible last year but still very important to milan play and we strugled even more without him and same is with kaka we struggle without him and even if he is not playing at his best he can win games IMO just like pirlo add something extra kaka does it too even if they are not playing to their full potential this has been the case over the last couple of seasons

Exactly. But I do think that at times Kaka is played because Carlo is afraid to leave him out, we have Dinho, Pato and Sheva, plus Boriello and Pippo in attack, surelu Kaka can be left out sometimes to get some well deserved rest, but Carlo still plays him. We can play games without him, just like we have without Pirlo, we have a big enough squad to rotate but Carlo does not understand the meaning of rotating the team and keeping everyone fresh

This post has been edited by han2503: Nov 30 2008, 03:56 PM

[Fillipo Simone]

It was Spalletti's first real big match in Europe, he made mistakes, and at least it wasn't Wenger that he got humiliated against

How on earth did you get the idea to compare our defeat from Arsenal with Romas? And, yes, it was Spalletti's first encounter. Next year he proved he didn't learn much.

You think Seedorf's, Kaladze's, etc performances showed heart and determination to win matches?? I'm only mentioning these 2 since they are our most complaincent players, but even Pirlo, Rino, Ambro and Pippo had games where there looked like they couldn't give a sh!t these past couple of seasons.

As for coaches who doesn't rely on their star players to bail them out, Scolari doesn't have an iconic player like Milan for example have Kaka, Inter have Ibra, Man U have C.Ron and so on. His team literally plays like a team and most of the goals are constructed as team moves, that why someone as sh!t as Anelka is able to score the ammounts he's scored this season.

Players bolded - were never mentioned by me. I agree, Pippo had a few heartless matches. Ambro? Not a single one last season, or okay, maybe one.

Chelsea? At the moment they don't have a real superstar. But they depend on Drogba and Anelka. And yes, I don't think Anelka is sh@t. But okay, Scolari is the closest thing to such an ideal.

Oh so you classify these last 2 seasons, (one of them in which we didn't qualify for the CL and got spanked by the @rse kids) as a success while playing the xmas tree formation and playing Carlo's ridged tactics? Clearly we don't treat the term complete failure in the same way. Because I call those 2 seasons a disgrace that was brought upon our selves, by both compaicency and bad tactics.

You know, between a success and a complete failure there are some levels between. I never said it was a success. But you know that very well.

[han2503]

How on earth did you get the idea to compare our defeat from Arsenal with Romas? And, yes, it was Spalletti's first encounter. Next year he proved he didn't learn much.

Sure it wasn't on the same proportions as the Roma defeat (even though it was a freak match that everything Man U shot went in and wouldn't happen again in a million years) but the way Arsenal outplayed us to me was as emberassin and to have it happen on our own home turf it even worse.

Players bolded - were never mentioned by me. I agree, Pippo had a few heartless matches. Ambro? Not a single one last season, or okay, maybe one.

You mentioned the obvious ones like Paolo that no one really can't find anything bad to say about, but I mentioned the ones that were even more involved in our seasons then Paolo was, who in the end effected us more.

Chelsea? At the moment they don't have a real superstar. But they depend on Drogba and Anelka. And yes, I don't think Anelka is sh@t. But okay, Scolari is the closest thing to such an ideal.

Drogba barely plays anymore, and they basically lay all the chances on a plate for Anelka, who imo is nothing now compared to that kid who broke out in at Arsenal. They literally play as a team throughout the pitch and don't depend on a single player to pull something out of his @ss when things get tough, something that cannot be said for the teams I mentioned in my other post, and this is including Milan

You know, between a success and a complete failure there are some levels between. I never said it was a success. But you know that very well.

To Milan not making the CL and being KO'd in the last 16 is a complete failure in no matter which way you view it, it will always be a complete failure for Milan. We aren't a team that celebrates making it to the UEFA Cup or CL after having a good season, we expect to get into the CL every year, and not making it there is a complete failure

[Fillipo Simone]

@Han you're really a spin-doctor... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/innocent.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Quote:

tactics that have been tried over and over and over again in the domestic league and are proven as complete failures

I never talked about the season standings. I just SAID and I'll say it over and over again -- I don't think Ancelottis tactics were a complete faliure nor do I think the coach should be 100% or even more then 50% responsible for the last season complete failure!

Maldini. Hah!! He's not playing much these days. If it were different I'm sure we'd allready have some of those "should have retired a long time ago" posts. Cause that's what I remember reading over and over agin last season.

[kurtsimonw]

I have 5 complaints really.

1 Carlo's stubberness
4-3-2-1 at home against teams that play with 10 men behind the ball. What's the point of having 2 creative players and 1 forward, how do we expect to win these games?

2 Carlo's excuses
First of all he plays into the defending teams hands by playing a 4-3-2-1, then complains that we didn't win because the opposition just defended? It's ridiculous. He also complains about referee's more than any other manager I know - including Wenger.

3 Carlo's authority
A head coach/manager needs 2 things. Control of the dressing room and respect from above. The way Seedorf reacts and the way players never seem to praise Carlo for any help he's given them suggests he is not in control of the dressing room. As for respect from above? Not even close. He never seems to demand anything, he seems happy to carry on with a mediocre squad and takes the heat for all the problems, get a grip man! If the players aren't good enough, ask for better!

4 Over-rated
Following on from my last point, most of the players aren't good enough. Only about 2 are good enough for a title winning side, and only 5 or 6 are good enough to play for a team that even wants to consider challenging. The likes of Nesta and Maldini aren't good enough, not even close. Then players like Seedorf and Pirlo, while they fit into Milans system are too one dimensional and I can not see any other top clubs wanting them because of this. Then we over-rate our youngsters like Pato, and our veterans like Sheva. Teams like Inter and Juve are better, man for man, throughout their whole squad, except maybe an exception or two.

5 Silvio and Galliani
No heart, too many excuses. Silvio doesn't seem to care and this transfer window should that in abundance. R10 and Sheva are favourites of his, but shouldn't have been anywhere near our squad if we wanted to take winning the Scudetto seriously. He just wnats his favourite players, opposed to the best. Then the excuses from Galliani, we could win any trophy whether it be the "Teams that wear red and black in Milan trophy" or the "Who has the most Brazilians in the squad Cup", they would consider it a succesful season.

These really effect the club as a whole. Silvio doesn't care, so he won't be willing to spend so much. Carlo doesn't push him too, so there's no chance of it being spent. We're stuck with a very average looking squad when you consider where we want to be, and we stick with the same rigid tactics and when we perform poorly we just blame it on bad refereeing or overly defensive opposition. It's been like it for 3 years now, a special season from Kaka' produced the exuses in 06/07 and the Intercontinental Cup provided the excuse last season. It's a real shame where this club is headed, which to me just isn't in the right direction.

EDIT: This is just a general frustration of the way things are. So I don't want any "If you don't like it, don't follow the team" because that's a stupid comment to make and suggests people only support the team when things are going well, which I don't.

This post has been edited by kurtsimonw: Nov 30 2008, 05:13 PM

[acid911]

Maldini. Hah!! He's not playing much these days. If it were different I'm sure we'd allready have some of those "should have retired a long time ago" posts. Cause that's what I remember reading over and over agin last season.

This I'll agree with. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mellow.gif)