[X-Offender]

Oh? Because I believe he has played as a LM? In the leftmost position of the 4-4-2. Most important thing with Jack Bonaventura is he gives us cover for either of our wingers.

Firstly, are you certain that he has played as LM? Because for what I know he's always been used as a pure attacking player at Atalanta. Secondly, even if has played as LM, there's a difference between that role and a CM. Would you have played Nedved as CM? Or Nani? Or Ribery? Two completely different roles, Jack.

He could possibly adapt to that slot but I'm explicitly NOT advocating him for CM. Only as AM. CM would be MvG, and DM De Jong.

It doesn't strengthen your case for Honda as CM when I didn't propose Bona for that slot either.

Then you're proposing a 4-2-3-1 formation, as 4-3-3 advocates for a 3-man midfield with no AM.

And Honda has played as CM at CSKA in the past, so there's that.

Simply cannot disagree more Jack!

"Our formation hasn't allowed for a pure creator in the mid three for a long time." No, that's our coaches, Allegri was the one who didn't like having a pure creator in the midfield, he used f@cking Boateng as a trequartista FFS!! That's how allergic he was to playing a creator in midfield. He ousted Pirlo and mostly relied on Seedorf who I wouldn't call a pure creator like Pirlo or Kaka were under Carlo. He even used 3 DMs at times.

It is actually the complete opposite of that, our midfield is absolutely DESPERATE for a creator, someone who can actually use the ball smartly and not pass it sideways/backwards or lump it forward. This mentality was only introduced by Allegri.

Carlo reverted to using both Ambro and Rino when we sold Sheva and started using the xmas tree. He pushed Seedorf up and played Kaka as a SS behind the poacher (Pippo/Gila). And that's why we started struggling a lot in Serie A because we just couldn't break down opposing teams when they parked the bus.

With Seedorf we're talking a completely different system so he shouldn't factor in the discussion. Pippo is going to be using a 3-man midfield, just like what Carlo did and what Allegri did.

The Rino type of player is extinct these days, and no top team can afford to have someone who's just in there to break down the plays, they want all rounders, players who are great on both sides of the ball. Look at Barca, they have Busquets, every other pure DM they ever had they used in the defence, Real have Khedira, Chelsea have Matic or Ramires, etc, etc.

This obsession we have with DMs is incredibly ridiculous, we have De Jong, who's a pure anchor player, no need for any other player who does the dirty work and makes the simple pass. Ideally our midfield should be De Jong, 1 pure creative CM (Monto, Honda, Jack) and 1 two-way player who's good on both sides of the ball, that obviously MvG for me and Poli his immediate sub with Muntari being able to sub for all 3 when needed.

Any combination that involves De Jong and Muntari or Essien is just over kill, especially for Serie A, when you need your midfield to be fast and fluid to break stubborn teams down

Actually I'm all for it.

He's a relatively slow player who is pure shite at dribbling imo. He absolutely shouldn't be used on the wing. Yes in an ideal world he'd be used in the traditional AM/trequartista role, but we're not going to be playing with a system that makes use of that position this season, so imo, if we want to get the best out of him he needs to be in an area where his best attributes can be put on show, and imo, he'd be great at CM. He's capable of tracking back, probably even better than that lazy @ss Muntari. And he'd be in a position where his passing and vision can be of great use to the squad, because I do think he's probably our best passer and creative mind in the side

Agreed on everything.

[Danny]

Then you're proposing a 4-2-3-1 formation, as 4-3-3 advocates for a 3-man midfield with no AM.

No I'm not. No it doesn't.

And Honda has played as CM at CSKA in the past, so there's that.

Yeah? Well plenty players get used out of position and we whine. Now you're advocating it. The guy's an AM. I don't buy him as CM at all.

His best slot, as seen at the WC and pre-season is trequartista or one of the flanks with the freedom to cut in. Which is why he doesn't really work to his full potential at Milan.

[Danny]

They said he could be ready for the Norway game... How come they're now saying that he's a doubt for Sunday? I seriously hope this is not going to be a Pato type situation with SES.

It's what I feared. I hope I'm wrong as he's had a very productive start to the new season.

[X-Offender]

No I'm not. No it doesn't.

Care to explain?

Yeah? Well plenty players get used out of position and we whine. Now you're advocating it. The guy's an AM. I don't buy him as CM at all.

His best slot, as seen at the WC and pre-season is trequartista or one of the flanks with the freedom to cut in. Which is why he doesn't really work to his full potential at Milan.

I'm proposing him as CM only because I think he's wasted on the wing. Whether as CM or winger, he's out of position, but at least as CM his abilities are used to a better extent.

[Danny]

Care to explain?

The modern 4-3-3 is the DM/CM/AM as a flat 3 in the middle - the 'Barcelona' model, if you like, with one holding DM, one all-round CM, and one attack-minded AM. With the 3 prong attack up top. That's what Pippo's playing, not your 2-3-1 you seem to be changing my formation to.

I'm proposing him as CM only because I think he's wasted on the wing. Whether as CM or winger, he's out of position, but at least as CM his abilities are used to a better extent.

I agree he's wasted on the wing, and I agree in principle as a CM his abilities might be better deployed but neither is him at remotely full capacity. And there's no point putting a 60-70% Honda in over a 100% van Ginkel, for example, just for the sake of getting 'more' out of Honda.

Why drop a dedicated CM for a trequartisa who is weaker in CM?

And we wouldn't sign Bonaventura for 7M if he wasn't going to start so I don't think his place is up for grabs in Honda's favour.

This post has been edited by Danny: Sep 11 2014, 10:28 PM

[X-Offender]

The modern 4-3-3 is the DM/CM/AM as a flat 3 in the middle - the 'Barcelona' model, if you like, with one holding DM, one all-round CM, and one attack-minded AM. With the 3 prong attack up top. That's what Pippo's playing, not your 2-3-1 you seem to be changing my formation to.

Is it? What team other than Barça have played an AM in a 3-man midfield? And how can you say that's what Pippo is playing when our 3 midfielders have been De Jong, Poli and Muntari up to this point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

I agree he's wasted on the wing, and I agree in principle as a CM his abilities might be better deployed but neither is him at remotely full capacity. And there's no point putting a 60-70% Honda in over a 100% van Ginkel, for example, just for the sake of getting 'more' out of Honda.

Why drop a dedicated CM for a trequartisa who is weaker in CM?

And we wouldn't sign Bonaventura for 7M if he wasn't going to start so I don't think his place is up for grabs in Honda's favour.

The idea here is that if Bonaventura can play as CM, so can Honda. And between the two, I'd choose Honda.

This post has been edited by X-Offender: Sep 11 2014, 10:44 PM

[Danny]

Is it? What team other than Barça have played an AM in a 3-man midfield? And how can you say that's what Pippo is playing when our 3 midfielders have been De Jong, Poli and Muntari up to this point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

Because we didn't have the archetypal model to play the Barca midfield - that's WHY we brought in MvG & Bona. But to be pedantic De Jong was playing DM, Poli the CM and Muntari the AM. It wasn't the most ideal solution but it did seem to work.

And other teams using 4-3-3 with an AM? Brendan Rodgers' Liverpool does, with Allen or Henderson taking turns to be the Xavi or the Iniesta. Jose's Lampard Chelsea did too, Lampard being the AM.

The idea here is that if Bonaventura can play as CM, so can Honda. And between the two, I'd choose Honda.

My idea is he's the AM. MvG is the CM. Bona is the AM. And it's therefore not a choice between Honda and Bona, but Honda and MvG. And MvG is my choice.

[X-Offender]

Because we didn't have the archetypal model to play the Barca midfield - that's WHY we brought in MvG & Bona. But to be pedantic De Jong was playing DM, Poli the CM and Muntari the AM. It wasn't the most ideal solution but it did seem to work.

And other teams using 4-3-3 with an AM? Brendan Rodgers' Liverpool does, with Allen or Henderson taking turns to be the Xavi or the Iniesta. Jose's Lampard Chelsea did too, Lampard being the AM.

How can Muntari ever be considered an AM???

Lampard has always been a CM rather than an AM. The same can be said about Allen. They aren't perfect attacking players, which what a typical AM or trequartista is about. Rui Costa, Kaká, Totti, Boban, Savicevic, these are players deemed as AM that cannot be imagined in a 3-man midfield.

Maybe you and I just have different definitions of what an AM is, but when I think of a 3-man midfield, I think of an anchor and two CMs, one being creative and one being more of a box-to-box type of player. In the context of our team, I consider Poli and MvG to be the latter, and Honda to be the former. Bonaventura, not so much. He strikes me more of the above mentioned category of Rui Costa and the others.

My idea is he's the AM. MvG is the CM. Bona is the AM. And it's therefore not a choice between Honda and Bona, but Honda and MvG. And MvG is my choice.

Wait, what? If Honda is the AM, and MvG is the CM, how can it be a choice between those two? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

[Danny]

How can Muntari ever be considered an AM???

Because he's explosive. He's got no creativity but he is extremely powerful in the final third, however much you dislike him. He also gets back as well, which helps the team, but the guy scores goals and he poses a threat. This is why I say him being AM is a bit crude and is why we've dipped into the market to buy a proper AM.

Lampard has always been a CM rather than an AM. The same can be said about Allen. They aren't perfect attacking players, which what a typical AM or trequartista is about. Rui Costa, Kaká, Totti, Boban, Savicevic, these are players deemed as AM that cannot be imagined in a 3-man midfield.

For a CM it's a hell of an achievement that Lampard is Chelsea's all-time top goalscorer (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I'd also argue Totti is not a trequartista but a second striker. Maybe nowadays that he is slower he sits deeper in front of the midfield but when he was younger he was definitely a striker/supporting striker.

Maybe you and I just have different definitions of what an AM is, but when I think of a 3-man midfield, I think of an anchor and two CMs, one being creative and one being more of a box-to-box type of player. In the context of our team, I consider Poli and MvG to be the latter, and Honda to be the former. Bonaventura, not so much. He strikes me more of the above mentioned category of Rui Costa and the others.

I think we do disagree on what an AM is. For me, it's the DM/CM/AM combination:

DM: Your dirty destroyer. Breaks up play and supports defence. De Jong.

CM: Contributes to this but supplies the flanks and uses vision to make the right pass forward and backward. van Ginkel. Also contributes to:

AM: Completely forward thinking - bursts forward, provides support to the CM but focuses mainly on supplying the wings and being an auxiliary forward when an attack is underway. Also responsible for the 'killer pass'. Bonaventura.

Wait, what? If Honda is the AM, and MvG is the CM, how can it be a choice between those two? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

It isn't, it's a choice between Honda or Bona as AM. In my 3 De Jong and MvG are DM and CM respectively. The area we're arguably contending is AM. And Bona gets my vote.

[han2503]

My idea is he's the AM. MvG is the CM. Bona is the AM. And it's therefore not a choice between Honda and Bona, but Honda and MvG. And MvG is my choice.

I was following the convo and I was like "Huh" at this part.

We have 3 spots in midfield, one of those is locked down by De Jong, that's the centre position.

Now, we have 2 other spots, and they should be assigned as follows; one to a pure creator (that's either Honda or Bonaventura) and one to a midfield all-rounder (that's either MvG or Poli)

Monto can play either position when he returns

But the point is that what you're saying doesn't make sense because you're saying that it's a toss up between MvG and Honda for that all-rounder position, when it simply cannot be the case because we can't even have both Jack and Honda on the pitch at the same time.

[han2503]

For a CM it's a hell of an achievement that Lampard is Chelsea's all-time top goalscorer (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I'd also argue Totti is not a trequartista but a second striker. Maybe nowadays that he is slower he sits deeper in front of the midfield but when he was younger he was definitely a striker/supporting striker.

Lampard is definitely a box-to-box CM for me. He was just brilliant at bursting into the box and scoring or shooting from range which is why he has those crazy numbers for a midfielder imo

And Totti has been used as CF/SS now, in the twilight of his career, at his peek he was a pure No. 10. I remember there was this huge issue about him and Del Piero when it came to the Azzurri, when there never really should have been. Totti is a pure creator, he's the definition of a trequartista imo. Del Piero is an SS.

AM: Completely forward thinking - bursts forward, provides support to the CM but focuses mainly on supplying the wings and being an auxiliary forward when an attack is underway. Also responsible for the 'killer pass'. Bonaventura.

I don't think you can call that position the "AM" position, you're describing the role of a CM who has the characteristics of a box-to-box player, hence Lampard

[han2503]

Probable line-up according to most sources (Milan Channel included)

Lopez
Abate--Alex--Bonera--De Sciglio
Poli--De Jong--Muntari
Honda--Torres--Menez

I really do not want to whine and question Pippo as of yet.

But Bonera??? Muntari????

Bonera along with an equally slow Alex in the centre of defence is just asking for it imo. I seriously wonder why most coaches are so obsessed with him, that is until he completely lets them down and has a nightmarish performance, both Allegri and Seedorf had to go through this (Allegri twice over). Now Pippo is doing the same thing. I wonder when the calamity show will ensue... Hopefully not against Juve

And Muntari! Again! We have many options in midfield now, please Pippo! Do not make us suffer in watching this lazy idiot start anymore games for us unless it's a dire injury emergency he should be kept on the bench

[Danny]

I was following the convo and I was like "Huh" at this part.

Then you're in slow mode (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

We have 3 spots in midfield, one of those is locked down by De Jong, that's the centre position.

Now, we have 2 other spots, and they should be assigned as follows; one to a pure creator (that's either Honda or Bonaventura) and one to a midfield all-rounder (that's either MvG or Poli)

Monto can play either position when he returns

But the point is that what you're saying doesn't make sense because you're saying that it's a toss up between MvG and Honda for that all-rounder position, when it simply cannot be the case because we can't even have both Jack and Honda on the pitch at the same time.

No, FFS!

I'm not saying it's a toss up between anyone, X-Off is. I'm just pointing out I'd have those 3 in midfield while X would have Honda there.

In fact if neither of you gets my point by now I'll just bow out this debate and lie in a dark room.

[Danny]

Probable line-up according to most sources (Milan Channel included)

Lopez
Abate--Alex--Bonera--De Sciglio
Poli--De Jong--Muntari
Honda--Torres--Menez

I really do not want to whine and question Pippo as of yet.

But Bonera??? Muntari????

Bonera along with an equally slow Alex in the centre of defence is just asking for it imo. I seriously wonder why most coaches are so obsessed with him, that is until he completely lets them down and has a nightmarish performance, both Allegri and Seedorf had to go through this (Allegri twice over). Now Pippo is doing the same thing. I wonder when the calamity show will ensue... Hopefully not against Juve

And Muntari! Again! We have many options in midfield now, please Pippo! Do not make us suffer in watching this lazy idiot start anymore games for us unless it's a dire injury emergency he should be kept on the bench

Think it might be you who needs to lie down (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

About 1 of every 100 predicted lineups actually happens.

[X-Offender]

Because he's explosive. He's got no creativity but he is extremely powerful in the final third, however much you dislike him. He also gets back as well, which helps the team, but the guy scores goals and he poses a threat. This is why I say him being AM is a bit crude and is why we've dipped into the market to buy a proper AM.

I don't think Pippo ever intended on playing Muntari as AM. In Pippo's 3-man midfield, up until now, there hasn't been an AM. Just an anchor and two muscle players. Not every 3-man midfield is built in your vision, Danny. Allegri used to play Ambro, Gattuso and Flamini together!

For a CM it's a hell of an achievement that Lampard is Chelsea's all-time top goalscorer (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I'd also argue Totti is not a trequartista but a second striker. Maybe nowadays that he is slower he sits deeper in front of the midfield but when he was younger he was definitely a striker/supporting striker.

I think we do disagree on what an AM is. For me, it's the DM/CM/AM combination:

DM: Your dirty destroyer. Breaks up play and supports defence. De Jong.

CM: Contributes to this but supplies the flanks and uses vision to make the right pass forward and backward. van Ginkel. Also contributes to:

AM: Completely forward thinking - bursts forward, provides support to the CM but focuses mainly on supplying the wings and being an auxiliary forward when an attack is underway. Also responsible for the 'killer pass'. Bonaventura.

Yeah, I just don't see it that way. For me a 3-man midfield will always encompass a DM and two CMs. One of the CMs might be a creator or offensive-minded, but not an AM. I have another definition for that role.

And as Han said, Totti was a typical trequartista back in the day. If anything, it's now that he's being played as a striker.

It isn't, it's a choice between Honda or Bona as AM. In my 3 De Jong and MvG are DM and CM respectively. The area we're arguably contending is AM. And Bona gets my vote.

OK, I perfectly get that, but what you said earlier doesn't support that view. You said "Honda is the AM. MvG is the CM. Bona is the AM. And it's therefore not a choice between Honda and Bona, but Honda and MvG. And MvG is my choice". How can it be a choice between Honda and MvG when they have different roles in your view? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)