[Zed.D]

kaladze (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

That's why I think seniority should not the only factor.

[Zed.D]

No, he's not worn the armband.

(IMG:http://tinypic.info/files/6vaxaksxub963pjdvjwj_thumb.jpg)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Tennie]

Ah. Clearly I didn't see that game. when's it from?

I don't have an issue with him being captain if the same criteria are applied to him that have been applied to others. Maldini, for example, was captain of the Azzurri for years before he was captain of Milan. He had to wait too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Zed.D]

Ah. Clearly I didn't see that game. when's it from?

Portsmouth. even though he wore it only for a few minutes!

(In that game, he was given the armband ahead of Pippo IIRC - after he was substituted, Pippo got the armband)

I don't have an issue with him being captain if the same criteria are applied to him that have been applied to others. Maldini, for example, was captain of the Azzurri for years before he was captain of Milan. He had to wait too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I agree. only I think likes of Abbiati and Kaladze should not be ahead of him even if they've been here for a longer time.

Sheva has lost the right to wear the armband as you can see Gattuso wears it ahead of him, while before Sheva left Milan it was the other way around.

[Tennie]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) Fishdoll's scared. We're agreeing again, zeddie.

[dst]

It's Ambro then Gatto and then Ricky for me. I believe Kaka would make a better captain than the two ahead of him but they are more than capable to bear it themselves, they are Italians and... well, they are ahead of him.
Kaladze does not deserve it, it does not seem to me like he's a player that gives his all every time.
Pirlo and Inzaghi are not truly the leader type.
Seedorf is ahead of Kaka too but a captain is one that drives his team forward not one that requires a whole team to push him to move forward.
Sheva... I'd be disgusted to see him wear the armband, I do not even consider him for that role.

My personal choice for next captain would be Nesta. If he can stay fit and if he wishes to be (seeing as he is Lazio's former captain) that is. But before my personal choice comes hierarchy, Ambro must be Milan's next captain.

[Zed.D]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) Fishdoll's scared. We're agreeing again, zeddie.

(IMG:http://www.moppo.net/links/886976001232671668-final.gif)

Seedorf is ahead of Kaka too but a captain is one that drives his team forward not one that requires a whole team to push him to move forward.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Not to mention his [sometimes] cheeky behavior.

[KillerMax]

Before Sheva left, he was vice captain along with Costacurta... Right now he is not even a vice player...

I believe after Maldini, Ambrosini will become captain and Gattuso and Kaka vice captains.

[Fillipo Simone]

I'm sorry to disrupt your captain's armand debate, but I have to respond on this one:

1.)

Crespo was at Parma, when you're at that kind of club you really can't pick and choose. And Crespo was already pretty established at the time even though he was young.

Crespo wasn't 21-22. Besides, all these were known or hyped players. They had a history.

When Ancelotti took over at Parma it was Crespo's first season. He was established just like every other Argie, who came up with a pretty good goal-score record from River/Boca. Nothing special in other words.
Parma had, as strikers - Chiesa, Crespo, Zola and Stanic, so the selection wasn't bad either.
And finally, yes, Crespo was 21-22. We are talking of season 1996-97, Crespo was born in 1975.

2.)

Pirlo was only a flop at Inter he had already beun playing the DM role at Brescia when there was Baggio. He was a very highly regarded young Italian player that went to Inter, where they always have 2 big players for each position, so it would be obvious he would fail there playing in attacking mid position

You're mixing up things. Pirlo played for Brescia till 1998. Baggio was still at Bologna. Then Pirlo moved to Inter where he fail cause as you said Winter and Simeone bocked him. After that he made a good season as AM at Reggina, came back once more to Inter where Winter and Simeone were already gone, so the DM wasn't covered enough, but failed again. Afterwards he went on loan to Brescia, were he played with Baggio. His career at that moment seemed to fade. I think Pirlo's rise has a lot more to do with Carletto then you'll admit.
Fatih Terim and Washington Tabarz were also coaches who had to rebuild, and look now...

3.)
Jack gave you Crespo and Pirlo, because you said Kaka's the only one.
I'll add a few:
Lillian Thuram - made debut for Parma while Ancelotti was coach with 24 years
Gigi Buffon - it was his first season as No.1

In fact, Carlo Mazzone's line up for Parma in 1995 was:
----------------Bucci (Buffon)----------------------
Benarrivo---Apolloni------Cannavaro------Mussi

Ancelotti's line up was:
---------------------------------Buffon (Bucci)-----------------------
Benarrivo (Ze Maria)---------Cannavaro---Mussi---------Thuram


So he basically gave Buffon and Thuram a chance right from their start. So most of the comments made on Ancelotti were based on false assumptions.

[han2503]

I'm sorry to disrupt your captain's armand debate, but I have to respond on this one:

1.)



When Ancelotti took over at Parma it was Crespo's first season. He was established just like every other Argie, who came up with a pretty good goal-score record from River/Boca. Nothing special in other words.
Parma had, as strikers - Chiesa, Crespo, Zola and Stanic, so the selection wasn't bad either.
And finally, yes, Crespo was 21-22. We are talking of season 1996-97, Crespo was born in 1975.

2.)

You're mixing up things. Pirlo played for Brescia till 1998. Baggio was still at Bologna. Then Pirlo moved to Inter where he fail cause as you said Winter and Simeone bocked him. After that he made a good season as AM at Reggina, came back once more to Inter where Winter and Simeone were already gone, so the DM wasn't covered enough, but failed again. Afterwards he went on loan to Brescia, were he played with Baggio. His career at that moment seemed to fade. I think Pirlo's rise has a lot more to do with Carletto then you'll admit.
Fatih Terim and Washington Tabarz were also coaches who had to rebuild, and look now...

3.)
Jack gave you Crespo and Pirlo, because you said Kaka's the only one.
I'll add a few:
Lillian Thuram - made debut for Parma while Ancelotti was coach with 24 years
Gigi Buffon - it was his first season as No.1

In fact, Carlo Mazzone's line up for Parma in 1995 was:
----------------Bucci (Buffon)----------------------
Benarrivo---Apolloni------Cannavaro------Mussi

Ancelotti's line up was:
---------------------------------Buffon (Bucci)-----------------------
Benarrivo (Ze Maria)---------Cannavaro---Mussi---------Thuram


So he basically gave Buffon and Thuram a chance right from their start. So most of the comments made on Ancelotti were based on false assumptions.

Like I said, about Carlo's Parma days, you can't really compare them with being Milan coach.

You may think I have some sort of anti Carlo agenda, but that's not really what this is at all.

I was talking mainly about Pirlo at Brescia when he played the DM role there, Carlo and Pirlo have both talked how they discussed his position when he was brought over to Milan, I credit Carlo to turning Pirlo into the final product we see today, which is imo the best deep lying playmaker around (when on his day) but it wasn't Carlo that invented that position for him.

And I was never talking about the old Carlo at Parma, the guy who lead a club like Parma to 2nd in Serie A (even though back then he had a wealth of young future stars playing for him) I'm talking about the Carlo that has managed the big clubs like Juve and Milan. At Parma you have much more liberty with giving young players the chance, at Milan and Juve its different, that's why I say Carlo is afraid to give these young players a chance. To my recollection Kaka has been the only young player to come out of nowhere at a young age and break into Carlo's teams at the big clubs, and not only that, take the place of a player like Rui Costa, a big player and a record signing for the club.

I credit Carlo with reviving Seedorf's carreer when it was going nowhere at Inter, Pirlo's also, giving Kaka the chance to shine. I credit Carlo with a brilliant couple of seasons as Milan coach mainly the CL win in 03 and the scudetto in 04. Those were 2 brilliant seasons where we played arguably the best football in Europe.

Having said that I think Carlos time with Milan is up, has been for a while and imo, should have left after the 07 CL win on a high and be remembered for being one of the best coaches in this club's history not for a coach that has over stayed his welcome.

As for you comments on Crespo he had already had a great reputation during the time Carlo had him at Parma, he was a hyped up South American that Carlo gave the chance to, and he scored goals, just like he always does. Like I said, it's easier to give the chance to strikers as opposed to midfielders and defenders, a striker you can see the results immediately if he's scoring goals, where as a defender or midifleder you have to assess performances on longer periods of time

This post has been edited by han2503: Jan 23 2009, 01:58 PM

[Jack Sparrow]

Right...that's what I mean han. It's different in Italy at the big clubs. Imo...none of the big clubs in Italy really give youth a complete chance. I mean I consider Giovinco to be a far bigger prospect than Gourcuff, but how much has he played for Juve this season?

Mourinho despite his un-Italianness hasn't played a lot of youth (forget Balotelli and his foolishness leading him to be dropped).

In fact the only exceptions- Roma and Fiorentina (not really a BIG club, but still...) are both clubs whose resources don't permit them to buy top players.

I already mentioned the points about Wenger and SAF who enjoy almost complete autonomy in their clubs. Barca have admittedly got the best youth system, and I will agree that is something we need to look at imbibing. But it's not easy to walk a thin line between youth training and constant victory.

P.S: Anyone know when the press conference is for this match?

This post has been edited by Jack Sparrow: Jan 23 2009, 02:37 PM

[Zed.D]

Kaka has been the only young player to come out of nowhere at a young age and break into Carlo's teams at the big clubs, and not only that, take the place of a player like Rui Costa, a big player and a record signing for the club.

Having said that I think Carlos time with Milan is up, has been for a while and imo, should have left after the 07 CL win on a high and be remembered for being one of the best coaches in this club's history not for a coach that has over stayed his welcome.

Brilliantly put.

[Zed.D]

Right...that's what I mean han. It's different in Italy at the big clubs. Imo...none of the big clubs in Italy really give youth a complete chance. I mean I consider Giovinco to be a far bigger prospect than Gourcuff, but how much has he played for Juve this season?

*cough*De Ceglie - Marchisio*cough*

(not to mention Chiellini (he didn't start his Juve career as the best CB in the world. he became that while playing for Juve though) - Sissoko)

And Giovinco has done well every time he's got a chance.

[Jack Sparrow]

See I don't particularly care about who coaches Milan right now. I just pipe up, when everything is blamed on Carlo. There are quite a few negatives I find in him as a coach, but that's later.

Why Carlo should stay now, is because there isn't anyone else, who can prove remotely good. I have my reservations about Rijkaard, Spalletti and Prandelli being viable. Donadoni? I think everyone will be aghast. MvB...has balls, but not till he does something in Europe.

What I fear the most is Carlo if he's fired/leaves, could just stroll to Chelsea/Man City who'll happily get rid of their current coaches and hand him the reins. And this time, it'll be different. It will be HIS team. This means if he asks for person X, he won't get person X two years later or even a 'replacement' for person X who is second rate.

I'm talking of Brocchi (for Emerson), Oliveira (for Eto'o) and R80 (for Ribery...so far the best transfer).

And more importantly Carletto gives teams with money (only?) the kind of credibility they need. Man City with Mark Hughes in charge and Man City with Carlo Ancelotti in charge is a different monster altogether. Same with Chelsea. With Scolari their appeal is limited to perhaps Portugal and Brazil, but with Carlo? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

To fire Carlo, without a proper alternative in place is to cut off your nose to spite your face.

DISCLAIMER: All of the above IMO (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Fillipo Simone]

See I don't particularly care about who coaches Milan right now. I just pipe up, when everything is blamed on Carlo. There are quite a few negatives I find in him as a coach, but that's later.

Why Carlo should stay now, is because there isn't anyone else, who can prove remotely good. I have my reservations about Rijkaard, Spalletti and Prandelli being viable. Donadoni? I think everyone will be aghast. MvB...has balls, but not till he does something in Europe.

What I fear the most is Carlo if he's fired/leaves, could just stroll to Chelsea/Man City who'll happily get rid of their current coaches and hand him the reins. And this time, it'll be different. It will be HIS team. This means if he asks for person X, he won't get person X two years later or even a 'replacement' for person X who is second rate.

I'm talking of Brocchi (for Emerson), Oliveira (for Eto'o) and R80 (for Ribery...so far the best transfer).

And more importantly Carletto gives teams with money (only?) the kind of credibility they need. Man City with Mark Hughes in charge and Man City with Carlo Ancelotti in charge is a different monster altogether. Same with Chelsea. With Scolari their appeal is limited to perhaps Portugal and Brazil, but with Carlo? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

To fire Carlo, without a proper alternative in place is to cut off your nose to spite your face.

DISCLAIMER: All of the above IMO (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

+1 (but I don't think it was even neccessary...)