[Tennie]

I'd have to go back and look year-to-year, zd. Honestly don't know the answer to that one off the top of my head. I suspect that it's actually fairly even between us and them. They've got a good percentage of non-italians in their squad right now too.

[Zed.D]

They've got a good percentage of non-italians in their squad right now too.

With players like Marchisio, De Ceglie, Giovinco, etc. emerging, I think it's a matter of time before Juve are back to the kind of team they were before the Calciopoli [having lots of Italians-wise!]. on the other hand many of our Italians are nearing the end of their careers. we don't have many for the future and we're not even trying to do something about it. at least that's my impression. when we go to the transfer market, it's more likely that it is for a foreigner rather than an Italian.

[Tennie]

Pretty much, zd. That's the thing that makes me very sad about it all and why I keep campaigning so hard (not that my opinion matters at all to milan management) for more young Italians to be brought in.

[vnata001]

I don't have any problem with Kaka or Ronaldinho or Pato playing for Milan. I just think there are too many brazilians right now. And I'm sure Italy can offer better defenders then Thiago Silva.

a bit convenient to say this. sure emerson and dida are replaceable with comparable non-Brazilian talent..it hasn't always been that way, when we had cafu and serginho i wouldn't have traded them for anybody. Hell, I would swap Kaladze for Lucio, Favalli with Kleber..it's not a question of their nationality, it's their quality. It's no coincidence that Milan like Brazilians. The footballers from that country have EARNED their right to play in the club.

i'm going to mark these words abt thiago silva. exactly how can you be so sure. have we seen him play? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

if our central pairing this season to date was thiago silva and daniel agger i'm "sure" we'd be doing a lot better than we have been with the maldini, favalli, kaladze big 3. yea, said it.

[whoarethepatriot...]

Juve have much more potential Azzurri stars

We have - Paloschi - Darmian (not including U18 from both sides)

they have - Marchisio - De Ceglie - Giovinco - Criscito - Lanzafame

These are off the top of my head and dont include highly promising players like Esposito, Rossi and Pasquato, and the many players they have offloaded like Nocerino, Paro and Palladino

This post has been edited by whoarethepatriots: Jan 5 2009, 05:55 PM

[acid911]

By italian core you mean Gattuso-Ambrosini-Pirlo? Cause actually, it could happen that only those three end up first-team players next season. I don't think Milan has a solid italian core anyomore. Especially after Maldini retires.

An Italian core means, an Italian captain and vice, key players in vital positions particularly defense, and having players who have played for Milan for a long stretch of time (meaning they command respect). Of course having around 5-6 starters, as well as Azzurri players is never a bad idea.

I don't have any problem with Kaka or Ronaldinho or Pato playing for Milan. I just think there are too many brazilians right now. And I'm sure Italy can offer better defenders then Thiago Silva.

I agree about the Thiago Silva bit, but not about too many Brazilians. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/innocent.gif) There's always room for one or two more, if you ask me. Kidding!

Acid, I'm shocked that you think Pirlo and Gattuso's time has come and gone.

They're aren't getting any younger, and beside I was speaking literally. Then again, we should have prepared backup for them, as in players like De Rossi and someone with the characteristics of both Pirlo and Rino as their understudy. The fact that we haven't, and that both these players will retire probably in the next 3-5 doesn't help thing.

If it was up to me, I'd only keep Kaka, Pato and Dinho from our current Brazilians...

One little word: Dida. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/realmad.gif)

Azzurri starters or Italians? that's two different things.

Very different things.

I've heard Juve have had more Italians [overall] in their squad than Milan in recent decades. is that true?

Yeah, true. Juve contributes more to the Italian NT traditionally than any other club. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/goodheart.gif) Even in the last world cup, there were what, 7 Juve players and maybe 5 Milan players. This has been the case for a few decades, I reckon.

[vnata001]

and the whole bit about pirlo and gattuso's reign of dominance being over?

maybe not at milan. But i think we all witnessed the beginnings of the changing of the guard at the Euros this summer. The pirlo, gattuso, ambrosini midfield laid an egg. And the younger, Roma midfield of De Rossi, Alquilani, and Perrotta saw more action.

[Zed.D]

I don't have any problem with Kaka or Ronaldinho or Pato playing for Milan. I just think there are too many brazilians right now. And I'm sure Italy can offer better defenders then Thiago Silva.

Good lord, at least let him play his first game then judge him. just because he's Brazilian doesn't mean he's crap at defending.

[dst]

For my part, dst, I'd rather see an Italian Milan rather than a Brazilian one.

I think everyone would like that. But if it's not Italian it's foreign. Why focus on "the Brazilian contingent"?... I mean what if Thiago Silva was not Brazilian but from an Italian-speaking part of Switzerland? Does that make him less any less of a foreigner? It's as if you have an objection at players being Brazilian in particular rather than not Italian.

Well, I think we have enough of them. I do consider football a sport where nationality matters in a way that it gives identity. If you have 10 brazilians on field, you get that "brazilian mojo" and identity. I like them, but not that much to dream of a all-brazilian Milan squad.

We see football the same way but read above to see what I mean.
In the case we had many foreigners from different parts of the world it would be an assorted bastardized mojo... does that make any difference? If anything, in the case we had not had an Italian core (which I'm totally against) it's better to have a core of some nationality than not a core at all. Not that it makes any difference as to the way I'd look at the team, it would look "lost" to me anyway...

We have to win games, after all. What good is an all Italian club if it can't win regularly!

Even if there were no Italians good enough to play at the highest level (and I don't think that can ever be as there will always be some) I'd still prefer Milan to have a good number of Italians in the squad and finish 2nd than have none at all in order to win. It's not just about winning, having an identity as a team is more important at least that's what I believe.

I don't have any problem with Kaka or Ronaldinho or Pato playing for Milan. I just think there are too many brazilians right now. And I'm sure Italy can offer better defenders then Thiago Silva.

That's what I mean... why say there are too many Brazilians instead of too many foreigners? What difference does it make that our foreigners are mostly from Brazil?
I don't know how good Thiago Silva is but an Italian at the same level, whichever that is, would cost significantly more. I don't think there's any other reason why we did not go for an Italian defender.

If it was up to me, I'd only keep Kaka, Pato and Dinho from our current Brazilians...

Why not Emerson?

I've heard Juve have had more Italians [overall] in their squad than Milan in recent decades. is that true?

I think that's true, not sure though.

[Zed.D]

Why not Emerson?

Because I forgot to name him (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sleepysmiley03.gif)

Seriously, why are yiu asking? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[dst]

and the whole bit about pirlo and gattuso's reign of dominance being over?

maybe not at milan. But i think we all witnessed the beginnings of the changing of the guard at the Euros this summer. The pirlo, gattuso, ambrosini midfield laid an egg. And the younger, Roma midfield of De Rossi, Alquilani, and Perrotta saw more action.

Pirlo and Gattuso are the best in their position, picking anyone ahead of them is a matter of form or maybe tactics. I'd certainly love to have Aquilani and/or De Rossi in Milan though! Man, would that be great!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sleepysmiley03.gif)

Seriously, why are yiu asking? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Because when I'm quoted I Jizz In My Pants!

No seriously, I was just being sarcastic.

This post has been edited by dst: Jan 5 2009, 06:11 PM

[Tennie]

Vnata, I am going to respectfully agree to disagree with you regarding Brazilians in general having earned the right to play for Milan. I think it's grossly unfair to make blanket generalizations like that. Plus, well, I think you're wrong.

Here is the 2006 WC squad:
Nr. Name Date of Birth Position Clubs Height Weight
1 Gianluigi BUFFON 28/01/1978 GK Juventus (ITA) 190 83
2 Cristian ZACCARDO 21/12/1981 DF Palermo (ITA) 184 77
3 Fabio GROSSO 28/11/1977 DF Palermo (ITA) 190 82
4 Daniele DE ROSSI 24/07/1983 MF AS Rome (ITA) 182 80
5 Fabio CANNAVARO 13/09/1973 DF Juventus (ITA) 175 72
6 Andrea BARZAGLI 08/05/1981 DF Palermo (ITA) 186 79
7 Alessandro DEL PIERO 09/11/1974 FW Juventus (ITA) 173 73
8 Gennaro GATTUSO 09/01/1978 MF AC Milan (ITA) 177 77
9 Luca TONI 26/05/1977 FW Fiorentina (ITA) 194 89
10 Francesco TOTTI 27/09/1976 MF AS Rome (ITA) 180 82
11 Alberto GILARDINO 05/07/1982 FW AC Milan (ITA) 184 79
12 Angelo PERUZZI 16/02/1970 GK 181 88
13 Alessandro NESTA 19/03/1976 DF AC Milan (ITA) 187 79
14 Marco AMELIA 02/04/1982 GK Livorno (ITA) 190 88
15 Vincenzo IAQUINTA 21/11/1979 FW Udinese (ITA) 186 77
16 Mauro CAMORANESI 04/10/1976 MF Juventus (ITA) 174 70
17 Simone BARONE 30/04/1978 MF Palermo (ITA) 180 75
18 Filippo INZAGHI 09/08/1973 FW AC Milan (ITA) 181 74
19 Gianluca ZAMBROTTA 19/02/1977 DF Barcelona (ESP) 181 76
20 Simone PERROTTA 17/09/1977 MF AS Rome (ITA) 178 72
21 Andrea PIRLO 19/05/1979 MF AC Milan (ITA) 177 68
22 Massimo ODDO 14/06/1976 DF AC Milan (ITA) 182 76
23 Marco MATERAZZI 19/08/1973 DF Inter (ITA) 193 82

Looks like technically Juve have one more than Milan, depending on how you choose to count Zambrotta and Oddo.

Acid, I think you'll find that your assertion that Juve have had an azzurri dominance for decades is in error. These things tend to ebb and flow; the balance is with the gobbi right now but it most certainly wasn't in the late 80s and 90s.

[acid911]

and the whole bit about pirlo and gattuso's reign of dominance being over?

maybe not at milan. But i think we all witnessed the beginnings of the changing of the guard at the Euros this summer. The pirlo, gattuso, ambrosini midfield laid an egg. And the younger, Roma midfield of De Rossi, Alquilani, and Perrotta saw more action.

True that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/innocent.gif) The Euros is an excellent example. Sure they are very useful still, but over 30, and it's about time to start looking for replacements, let them train with the original, to learn from the master, no matter if his name is Pirlo or Kaka. This way we can have a transition - not end up with a mess like we did last year.

Good lord, at least let him play his first game then judge him. just because he's Brazilian doesn't mean he's crap at defending.

+1. I'm still holding the final verdict on Sanderos (IMG:style_emoticons/default/king.gif) Silva is from another planet, seeing as we still have to wait six months to see him play. The jury will be out until he's started (not played) ten or so games.

I think everyone would like that. But if it's not Italian it's foreign. Why focus on "the Brazilian contingent"?... I mean what if Thiago Silva was not Brazilian but from an Italian-speaking part of Switzerland? Does that make him less any less of a foreigner? It's as if you have an objection at players being Brazilian in particular rather than not Italian.

Well said. Identity isn't everything, but it's right up there with oxygen. But I don't mind Brazilians one bit, provided they are worth it. If alternate Italians are available, and feasible, then by all means go for them. A Milan starting eleven of all-Italians would be a sight to behold, but make sure they're Azurri starters, not plain Italians.

Even if there were no Italians good enough to play at the highest level (and I don't think that can ever be as there will always be some) I'd still prefer Milan to have a good number of Italians in the squad and finish 2nd than have none at all in order to win. It's not just about winning, having an identity as a team is more important at least that's what I believe.

Winning is a must. Not all matches, but as long as a team is constantly winning, it means it's doing something right. End up 2nd continuously and pretty soon one starts finishing 3rd and 4th, and so on. Just ask Roma. As for Milan the club, I agree with your bit that I don't care just about winning. I'll still be a fan even if we finished 20th. In Serie B. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif) I love the club, not it's positions! But remember, winning would mean more revenue and better players, and the cycle continues!

That's what I mean... why say there are too many Brazilians instead of too many foreigners? What difference does it make that our foreigners are mostly from Brazil?
I don't know how good Thiago Silva is but an Italian at the same level, whichever that is, would cost significantly more. I don't think there's any other reason why we did not go for an Italian defender.

My point, exactly.

Why not Emerson?

Why Emerson? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/realmad.gif) He was a top dog when he player in Juve against us. And what does he do now for us. For me he's a finished article. Finito. The Emerson of 5 years back, I can understand. But not a shot bullet like now.

[dst]

Why Emerson? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/realmad.gif) He was a top dog when he player in Juve against us. And what does he do now for us. For me he's a finished article. Finito. The Emerson of 5 years back, I can understand. But not a shot bullet like now.

It's called sarcasm and I use it regularly.

[Tennie]

and the whole bit about pirlo and gattuso's reign of dominance being over?

maybe not at milan. But i think we all witnessed the beginnings of the changing of the guard at the Euros this summer. The pirlo, gattuso, ambrosini midfield laid an egg. And the younger, Roma midfield of De Rossi, Alquilani, and Perrotta saw more action.

Actually, they didn't.

Here's the official breakdown.

Name Appearances Minutes Played
Ambrosini 4 263
Aquilani 2 30
De Rossi 3 310
Gattuso 2 175
Perrotta 3 179
Pirlo 3 241