All things must end.

I fail to see the logic of this comparison. Firstly, yes the gap is big. But ten years, you make them sound like it's nothing. While in fact this was the crucial transition period for Milan, whereas Calciopoli or no Calciopoli, Juve got demonted to Serie B but their financial structure remained intact.

Milan's problem start with financial matters; it's a combined mismanagement case and case of misfortuned financial transition/restructuring. Sure, Galliani and Berlu take the blame in the end, but the key factor was and always is Finivest.

In the end, we are were we started. Milan got picked up by Berlusconi as a second-tier club ready to join the fate of Torino, Genoa and other old Italian giants. He did what he could and for some decades we fought well, even managed to get the higher ground. But in the end, it was a one man show, a president giving it all to the club, personally or via firms like Finivest. I was bound to end one day.

Juve on the other hand were on top of things way back, since the Agnelli's took over. And they will be, because they virtually have an unlimited supply of money, a dynasty established way back to the roots of Italian Fordism and (third) industrial boom.

They can play their reserve side and save the first team for the CL next season and still walk all over the rest of the league. The gap between them and the rest has just gotten even bigger. If us and Inter don't do something, Serie A will be worse than the French league and the Bundesliga of a few years ago


True, but financial structuring has to be the responsibility of the upper management. And Milan has been mismanaged for years. We can all talk in the most basic terms of how Galliani gave big contracts to player A or B. But it goes deeper than that. The club's financial pediments were simply built on sand from day 1 and as you said, it was bound to collapse with neither Silvio or Galliani having any clue on how to salvage the situation. A situation which has been in an already critical condition since before the CL x-off speaks of was even won.

Fininvest imo don't have much to do with how Galliani and Silvio chose to run the club. Sure they were the ones to tighten the purse strings as the company couldn't afford to keep haemorrhaging a 100m each fiscal year, but what company would? And why were we in such a position to begin with?

I don't think Juve's funds are as endless as you think. But they're run very smartly and they bring in revenue. They had the foresight to build their own stadium before any other Italian side, they've made very smart transfer decisions, they're making even smarter commercial moves nowadays as well and their brand is expanding rapidly

You fail to see the logic of this comparison? We're talking about the two biggest clubs in Italian football history. Forget Inter. It's always been about Milan and Juventus, whether in Italy or in Europe. So, it's pretty logical to compare how mismanagement sunk us to the ground whereas good management led Juventus from Serie B to absolute dominion.

And it's been less than ten years. The real gap started widening when we lost the title to them back in 2012, with each year growing us further and further apart.

And may I say, before Silvio picked us, we had already won 10 scudettos and 2 Champions League titles. We've always been a huge name in Italy, ever since our conception. It's not like Silvio picked us from nowhere and made us big. He simply picked us in a bad moment, which is where are again right now.

You obviously failed to read my point. It hasn't always been Milan vs. Juventus. Milan wasn't just in a bad place before Silvio came along, we entered the final stage of a terminally ill has-been. Yes, surely, we were big and had titles in the past, but the fall could have and would have happened nevertheless.

But you fail to see that Juventus was always the frontrunner in terms of money and management system. Serie B came as a result of corruption and the dubious Calciopoli. But the link between them and FIAT never ceased to exist.

You have to understand how Italy works. It's a very clientele-oriented business environment. The Agnelli's have much more weight then any other family, and that's the main issue here. It's not about trophies and titles, it even isn't about proper management. It's fairly easy to manage a club when you have a background like the Agnelli's, a financial monopoly and ties to God knows who. Hell, the same "senile" management that we now blame for everything managed to do a good job for some decades, yes? How so? Because Berlusconi maintained power over his corporative empire and with his political position. As soon as this started to decline (meaning no background), Milan started to crumble and took a downward spiral. Don't be fooled by Milan's 2012 scudetto. It was by all means a swan song, fulfilled with the last of the remaining senators (Nesta, Seedorf, Pirlo, Abbiati), some good and cheap investements (van Bommel, Zambrotta) and some players that ended up being sold because we couldn't afford keeping them.

My point is: you can shout mismanagement as much as you like. And I agree, Milan got the rough end of the bargain in the end. You can compare Juventus and Milan on footballing terms. But on terms of economic power they were and are lightyears away. Juventus is the sole force in a town dedicated almost exclusively to the industry run by their owners. FIAT is and will remain an Italian stronghold, just like the Agnelli's will keep on being the Italian elite - they did so long before the Berlusconi's earned their first million, long before Milan had some financial forte.

That's not even the point I'm making. I'm referring to glory and success. Before the Berlusconi takeover, Juventus had managed to win only one meager UEFA Cup, whereas we had already achieved two European Cups, two Cup Winners' Cups and the various Intercontinental and Super Cups.

We were far more established on the international scene than Juventus were. Sure, they held domestic supremacy, but don't make it sound like Juventus were the Bayern Munich of Italy, whereas us and Inter were the underdogs trying to keep up.



Ah man, why do you have to make it all so political-oriented. Weight, families, power and so on. What does that amount to when it comes to football? This is a business, and it's fueled by money. And a business needs to be properly managed to be successful and continue being successful.

Berlusconi never stopped spending money for this club. Even when we were struggling in the late 90s/early 00s he still kept spending, and we gradually overcame that difficult period thanks to hiring a good coach and building a successful team. But a point in time arrived when his passion for this club ceased to exist, and Galliani started losing all sense, tarnishing the Milan way of doing things, eventually reducing us to a mockery of what this club once represented.

Yes, money has never been a problem for Juve, but money wasn't a problem for us either in these last 30 years before mismanagement made it so that it is now a big, big problem.

I make it political because in Italy families and politics decide and rule. Do old families still matter in France or Germany? Perhaps, but by a considerably lower margin. In Italy business and politics are still run by the old industrial elites.

You compared were the one who compared Milan and Juventus. I only told you that Juventus have and always shall have a much stronger background, which gives them the financial infrastructure to be a powerhouse and overcome much bigger obstacles the we can. When football was semi-professional, still in the very early and naive phase, up until the 60's and 70's, it wasn't a big deal. But take a look around you now. Money and financial background are the basics of footballing clubs succeeding or failing. I'm just saying you should take this into consideration when you compare Milan and Juventus.

But how does that even translate in the context of football? That they have more money? Of course they do, but so does Berlusconi. There was a time when Silvio spent millions on the likes of Shevchenko, Rui Costa, Inzaghi, Nesta etc. whereas Juve had to sell Zidane to finance their moves. It's not like Juventus reside on a mountain of dollars after all.

Yet, 1) unwillingness to spend by Silvio and 2) mismanagement by Galliani have created this situation for us, whereas an apt business plan coupled with their financial resources managed to pull Juve back up in no time. See what I'm trying to say? We had the means to remain big, but we squandered every opportunity by relying on a bunch of senile fools to run this club. Whereas Juve used their means to their best potential, and they returned to being great again.

I believe Juve has more revenue than Milan these days, but the bigger issue is how effectively the money is used. And it's not just bad player decisions (of which there have been many). Go back and read about the last stockholder meeting, scary how a lot of our money is spent. Hopefully the sale will go through, and the new management will clean up the mess (in general, I trust Chinese business people). Not that it is all great, I read that we may become a "farm" for Chinese teams, but it is much better than the status quo. (I hope.)

Again, wrong. All I'm trying to tell you is we do not have the same means, but you keep hitting this button. Well, have it your way then. Sure. It's easy peasy. Mismanagement, senile fools who all of a sudden turned from gold into shite, whereas Juve just becomes shrewder and shrewder every year like a true vintage.

What makes you trust Chinese business people? Creating a "farm" would be humiliating for Milan. Not that this status quo you're referring to isn't, don't get me wrong...

The debate about which family is the strongest can go on and on, but fact is, Juve have been run properly while we haven't. And that's the reason for the huge gap between the 2 clubs today. The Agnelli's for all their power and money have never spent the amounts of money that Silvio has, but I guess that's also part of the problem. While we had a sugar daddy plugging the holes and throwing money at problems they have been run like a proper business and the owners weren't just there to clean up debts at the end of the year or pump cash to buy this player or that player as a gift to the fans to improve their popularity at the polling booth

I don't get how you won't acknowledge the main difference. Juventus has a fall back system, prepared to act as a fail-safe in almost every dire situation. It's bigger then just one man pulling the strings. Yes, Juventus got managed properly, surely.

Juventus has been run properly because they got organized and tied in with all other Agnelli business activities for decades. Milan never was that kind of a story; we were a one-man-show, bound to explode one day. The thing with us is that we did not have or could not have the same fail-safe strategy and the same anchor.

In the end, I'm glad that I was and am a Milan fan. I'd change all the shrewdness in the world from the Agnelli's for what Berlusconi achieved with us. Even with this fall, with this mismanagement case, I'm still proud of what Milan become. We had a brand of football, we inspired people all over the world to join us and take part in our history. Milan played for most of the part better football, we proved to be winners on all stages, whereas Juventus only did that in Italy while remained a looser in Europe. Now it's very painful to watch the gap growing, sure. But no regrets anyway.

I agree, I think we're just lamenting different things tbh.

I think Milan's problem though is that Silvio used it as a political tool as well, and we suffered for it

That being said, I do agree with you that I have no regrets in being a Milan fan and all the emotional experiances that brought with it.

Hopefully this month we'll got through another major moment for the club which will be a fresh start and new beginning

Tell me why we went from dominating European football to absolute shite in less than ten years.

Experience plus what little I know about who may be taking over

China has high ambitions for elevating their status in the soccer world, which is why you are starting to see crazy money for players plus investments in teams. If this makes us more competitive in Serie A and at European level (which it should), it will be far less "humiliating" than the present situation. And, realistically speaking, I do not see us getting out of the present situation in any other way.

This post has been edited by Forza Milan!: Jul 18 2016, 07:39 AM