I don't think that you're a racist in any way, shape or form, but I do think that you let the Brazilian Samba vs Intelligent Italian football get too far into the issue. I've read comments you've made regarding this issue on many occasions, that's why I don't like how you constantly use Kaka and Pato as examples of players that are above criticism in people's eyes when you do the same thing with certain players.

As for Kaka to me being above criticism, I personally don't think that, I criticise him myself when he plays badly, case in point the Reggina game were I though he played awful. However I do also think that no matter the way he plays we need him on the pitch, we're dependant on him being there to play well.

As for Brazilian's in Milan's squad I don't think there's a lot I think we have the right amount, atm, only 3 Brazilians are starters with Dida being a long serving squad member that was here before Silvio and Galliani got a Brazilian fetish, Kaka who also was brought in as a youngster that Milan groomed. Yes we brought 2 more kids in (Mattioni and Silva) but I don't think having these players clouds the fact that we're an Italian team that has a solid core of Italian players as the backbone of the team

As for the racism accusations, you've hinted at it (and then apologized, credit where it's due). Others - and they know who they are - have flat out called me a racist. While they may not specifically be against the rules, to me such comments are completely unacceptable and in honesty I tend not to read anything else (no matter how long) these people write. If I do, I'm not likely to be favorably disposed toward it.

How very odd. I remember you saying specifically that Kaka shouldn't be criticized because of his contribution to the team (while, conversely, criticizing in BIG POSTS all the many errors of Pippo Inzaghi while ignoring HIS contributions to the team). I don't think it's a particularly balanced view. Granted, we all have players we like and players we don't (and given your many and detailed posts on the subject, it's pretty clear you don't like Pippo), but even I have commented that - for example - Beckham has done well when I was outspoken in opposition to his transfer.

I don't think Silva and Mattioni should have been bought. I think Milan should have brought in young Italian players instead. There ARE players of equivalent ability currently in Italy.

As for Milan's Italian core, that's eroding and those Italians who do regularly start are just as regularly eviscerated on this board. They're held to a very different standard - Maldini being the exception as I think there's mostly general agreement that he's above criticism - than others. To use an example, if Pato doesn't score in a game, I read that he's young, didn't get the ball from the midfield, etc etc etc. But if Pippo doesn't score, he's useless and should retire no matter how many balls he got from the midfield.

I personally don't feel it's a race issue at all for you, atleast that's the vibe I get from you, I think you wouldn't care if they come from Timbaktu and had purple skin, from the posts I've read, I get the general idea that you don't like how people percieve those 2 brands of football, which I think you are justified for thinking the way you do because there is the general oppinion (which I personally hate because I'm an Azzurri fan) that Italians are cheats and Brazilians are better and win with style. Which Imo is a close minded idea that only people who don't understand football have. But I don't let it effect the way I feel about the players that play for us when they wear the Milan shirt. I don't like mixing international football between club football because imo they are miles apart, in terms of how they are percieved both by the players themselves and people, some are more passionate about the NT while others more about their club. For example Totti (bringing him up because he plays for the team I personally support) I found it totally disrespectful the way he acted once Donadoni was appointed and then to come out and say that you may concider coming back to the Nazionale once Lippi took over again (IMG:style_emoticons/default/puke.gif)

Yes I defend Kaka when I see people that jump at the slightest mistake he makes, it's like they're waiting for him to screw up. I also am a believer that given how he's carried the team by himself ever since Sheva left we shouldn't expect him to be at 100% all the time, he's human just like you and me. But I also think that if he plays bady, he should be criticised, I do it myself when it's deserved. To me Maldini is the only player that no matter what happens I won't say an ounze against.

Silva and Mattioni... Don't know what to say to that since I agree with you, but at the end of the day these decisions are in the hands of our management who atm think it's cool to buy youngsters from South America

The fact that the Italian core in the team is eroding is another issue that lies in the management's hands. Carlo also takes responsability on this part because if the management do bring him in the talented Italian youngsters he has to be the one that utilises those players and start to groom them. As for Pippo, I think I've explained myself regarding Pippo a million times, I don't dislike him, I'm a fan and I appreciate all he's done for Milan, but I do think that his time has come to call it a day. He's 35 and he's not even a defender so his age shows more then it would on a defender like Favalli for example who most of the time plays better then players half his age. When it comes to Pippo my expectations are high and when I see him play like he did today were even the simple things he usually does flawlessly weren't even coming off I get disappointed and think that I would rather remember the Pippo of 2-3 years ago come 5 years then this other player that's currently wearing our #9 shirt

This post has been edited by han2503: Feb 22 2009, 09:57 PM

..yet again...

So, Rivaldo, I'm waiting to see match-photos! I hope someone got the "Baresi 6" banner!!!

OKAY!!!!!!-----------------

***NOTE****: Sorry everyone for grammatical mistakes or spelling errors that you may and probably will find in this post.

Its been a while since i've posted a serious and analytical post on these forums, but people generally put me in the same band as han and co.

okay lets begin (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) :

Regarding today's game, as a fan I could not hate carlo more for putting seedorf on so long or even his inconsistent subbing methods and also his tactical output in regards to games like this where we get the lead and take off our entire attack, HOWEVER being a coach I can appreciate why he does the things he does.

Some of you say viudez should play or at least gotten sometime and seedorf should have been subbed; as a fan I agree, but as a coach I disagree. Viudez right now has not played a single serie A minute like jack pointed out. Viudez is a Uruguayan attacking midfielder (NOT A STRIKER) who would be completely lost trying to produce the kind of system of play carlo desires. He is 18 years old and putting him on in a game like this when he hasn't had serie A time is nothing more than a confidence crasher. He was on the bench in case of emergency. Seedorf, being slow and lazy, knows carlo system of play like the back of his hand and if motivated can play like a world class mid. But seedorf is seedorf and right now we dont have many options so we should be happy that we have someone like him at all in our squad.

We can point the finger at carlo all we want and say he does this and that but realistically could you think of a better system of play than the current milan plays? It may be slow in attacking and give us few oppurtunities but it is the reason why we dont get scored on 5-6 goals a game. As long as we have the likes of bonera, senderos, kaladze and some days even maldini; we cannot afford to give up possession. Look at all our games, when the opoposition touches the ball, they almost score. So right now this boring pathetic football is the best were going to get till we can get someone in the centre who can handle having pressure sent at him. Someone other than nesta.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TO HAN:

TO TENNIE:

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final note: As a fan I despise carlo for his stubbornness and retarded decision making skills in regards to Serie A football. As a coach I respect the fact that he himself personally has stuck by through all the BS the management has thrown him all these years and still continues to make milan look like a world class team.

kudos the carlo the legend (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)


PS: <3 jack

This post has been edited by Bluesummers: Feb 23 2009, 07:03 AM

You're such a sweetheart. Muuaahh!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif)

You've pretty much got everything I wanted to say. I would just disagree with you on the Italian thing. I think an Italian club should have a core of Italian players. Of course an injury ravaged side is a different matter. But I mean Arsenal for instance is an English club, and last weekend I think they played 11 foreigners. They've not even acquired British citizenship.

Similarly for Inter, Santon is their only Italian right now. I think it's a little wierd. What defines a club then? Is Inter an Italian club for that matter? And if so..on what basis? On where they're registered?

But otherwise yeah..you've pretty much hit the nail on the head vis a vis Carlo and my seemingly blind devotion.

For a top class coach to do so much with so less is amazing, and I don't think the fans here or at the stadium give him the respect he deserves. Which is why in a twisted way, I'd like him to leave. You never know what you got till it's gone.

We have less than Fiorentina and Genoa who are right behind our *** in the standings..? even Juve?!

Excuse my language, but that's bullshit. there's nothing amazing about what Carlo has done in the past 2 seasons.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
See this is what I mean. You've made up your mind, that we're shite just for the sake of it.I like it. I like how people still think things haven't changed.
Here's the breakdown of Serie A spendings for 2008 in Euros:

Inter: 76 MM
Genoa: 57MM (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Juventus: 48.5 MM (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Fiorentina: 48 MM (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Roma: 44 MM
Milan: 43.5 MM

Btw...Fiorentina recuperated 4.8 MM from sales. While Milan recuperated a nice healthy 38.5MM, by getting rid of a lot of depth. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) Yup..this one's on Carlo too coz he didn't go on strike and give a press conference on bad omelettes...which is what a real coach would have done. That's the way to stand up for yourself, tell your existing squad that they're all bad eggs.

Btw a Milan which would have held onto Gilardino, Simic, Kuffkuff...on the off chance they might be needed (kinda like Inter with Crespo)...on hindsight with our injury list would have done really better...I think. But then it's all woulda..coulda..shoulda...

Here are the top transfers for the summer as well...
1. Amauri from Palermo to Juventus €22.8m
2. Ronaldinho from Barcelona to AC Milan €22.5m
3. Alberto Gilardino from AC Milan to Fiorentina €15m
4. Julio Baptista from Real Madrid to AS Roma €12m
5. Juan Vargas from Catania to Fiorentina €12m



Look..I really am not talking out of my hat. When I say it's not Carlo's fault, it's not some blind devotion or 'cut him some slack' thingie just for the heck of it. It's coz I honestly believe we're just sticking it to him for no reason.

More than any other coach, he's been put in the position where he has to be safe than sorry. More than any other coach in the top 3 clubs of the top 3 leagues (with the exception perhaps of Rafa and Wenger, but then those two are almost inviolate and will never be 'booed' ), he's had to skimp. But all we hear is how he should leave.

This post has been edited by Jack Sparrow: Feb 23 2009, 12:53 PM

I don't get it... what's your points, should we have finished 5th and we're overachieving?

Are you sure Genoa spent that much?

My point is what Carlo is doing is precisely par for the course. Considering the existing talent in the club and the injuries we've had. He's done nothing extraordinarily good or bad.

Probably..I got it off a website I think 4-4-2.com and had stored it on my comp somewhere. . Almost all of their purchases were undisclosed deals...but their purchases for this season were as follows (checkin my database). I also don't know about the winter market...

Abdelkader Ghezzal (undisclosed, Crotone), Davide Di Gennaro (part of Marco Borriello deal, AC Milan), Francesco Modesto (Reggina), Andrea Gasbarroni (undisclosed, Parma), Salvatore Bocchetti (co-ownership, Frosinone), Giuseppe Biava (undisclosed, Palermo), Steve Pinau (undisclosed, Monaco), Sokratis Papastathopoloulos (€4m, AEK Athens), Diego Milito (undisclosed, Real Zaragoza), Davide Brivio (loan, Vicenza)


Fiorentina were:

Alberto Gilardino (€13 million, AC Milan), Stevan Jovetic (€8 million, Partizan Belgrade), Felipe Melo (€13m, Almeria), Gianluca Comotto (undisclosed, Torino), Juan Manuel Vargas ((€12m Catania), Jefferson (free, Parana), Luciano Zauri (loan, Lazio), Sergio Almiron (loan, Juventus)

This post has been edited by Jack Sparrow: Feb 23 2009, 02:06 PM

I'm not even going to ask what you're source for those spendings is, because I didn't say we had spent less than those teams, but we didn't have less [quality/quantity] than them, which is more than obvious, in response to your "what Carlo is doing with so less is amazing". so less!? for god's sake. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) it's ridiculous to even compare Milan's squad (even with all the injuries included) to those of Fiorentina, Genoa and even Roma and Juve!! and you list their spendings for me... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

I can't make any other thing out of all this except that we're used to how bad we are! we went from top of the table to 11 points behind the leaders in the space of a few months, how amazing is that. what happened to Carlo's 'master plan'... his 'assualt on the title'...?

EDIT: at some point, Juve had half of their stars out and yet they are in a better position than we are. have been for most of the season. how about that? why you think only Milan is punished by injuries? why! in my eyes, that's yet another alibi for a bad season.

This post has been edited by Zed.D: Feb 23 2009, 02:23 PM

Is that price for real? Wow, we really got owned in the R80 and Zambrotta deals. Strange as to why we paid that much really, considering the form they were both in as well. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

The unique part about yesterday's match? It marked the first time since a match against Piacenza in May 2003 that we did not play any Brazilians.

Wondered if anyone else was going to notice that one, Miz.

Fishdoll awards 1 brownie.