Ok.

It's been an overall good start but Pippo is starting to annoy me.

Won't drop the catastrophically cr*p MDS, won't drop Muntari, and won't change the right things when they go wrong.

Why did we sign guys like Bona and MVG if Pippo won't play them?

Monto will be back next month and Muntari, he and De Jong will be the midfield. Poli, despite doing nothing wrong, will lose his place and will watch as the wild and unpredictable Muntari keeps his.

And Bona and MVG will sit there wondering why they bothered signing.

PPPPPS: Wonder how Armero is feeling right now. Deserves a start. You know, world cup quarter finalist RB...can't be worse than MDS.

Some of the individual displays were good, very good, and just because the team as a whole was flat and shitty doesn't make those individual shows any worse.

The whole does not always reflect the sum of its parts.

PPPPPPPPPPPS: I need to lie down in a dark room with relaxing Tibetan music, but alas the OH wants me to watch bloody X Factor with her. I'm in hell.

Agreed with all your votes.

Zapata was solid, Han. His brainfart passing has nothing to do with his defensive work, which was excellent.

You cannot tell me that you're going to ignore the fact that Zapata nearly assisted Fiorentina 3 times on his own just so you don't admit that you were wrong about him are you? Or because you like him better than Rami, either way, a defender that consistantly makes awful passing mistakes that could easily lead to us conceding a goal cannot be called solid or reliable to be a first choice starter


I know that, I just don't think Poli was that good, he was a total no show in that first half , and I personally didn't think there was a single player out there for us who played well today, I'm personally disappointed in all of them, to see them lazily passing it around in the last 10 minutes when we not only had the opportunity to go 3rd, but to get within 2 points of Roma, was completely disheartening for me, this kind of thing just saddens me because it shows where our (lack of) ambitions lie

Had one of those brain farts resulted in a goal you would be singing a completely different tune, I'm sure.

How can you say his defensive work was solid? Part of being a defender means passing the ball out of defence and Zapata is a complete and total liability in that respect, add to that his at times suspect positioning and you have a recipe for disaster, there was a reason why Rami was warming up at half time

Inzaghi: 'Milan regrets at draw'

If there's one thing that makes my blood boil is coaches who spew bullshit on a constant basis like Pippo does.



No. Fiorentina has been crap so far, saying a draw from them at home is an impressive feat makes you look like an idiot.



No, it wasn't a balanced game. We played like sh*t, Fiorentina had the initiative the whole time.



WHAT???



How exactly are we on the right path when you keep playing that hideous midfield?



No, we didn't! On the contrary, we played like we were happy with the draw.

For god's sake Pippo, have some self respect.

What suspect positioning? His defending was impeccable tonight. Danny is right, him and Alex are by far the best pairing we can afford right now.

If Thiago Silva made similar mistakes, would you want him benched as well? A defender isn't judged on his passing skills, but on his defensive abilities, and Zapata ticks the box in that regard. At least for our current standards.

Ok.



He was dogged - his usual tireless tracking, running, harrying. Second half he added marvellous individual play to it hence my high praise of him.



I don't think Pippo was to blame in terms of the passion - he was on the sidelines barking orders but the players just weren't doing anything. For whatever reason his passion didn't connect to them.

You usually hate my votes haha!

Must be the power of Lara. Ok I have no idea what that meant.

Your thoughts on Menez? I bought into your gushing praise earlier this season, and indeed most of us were raving after Parma but I sense you've changed your mind?

It p*ssed me off especially to see him look spent after 30 minutes. This guy is just desperately unfit, or disinterested. And I've had enough of the latter type of player after Balo.

Just a crying shame MDS seems to have gone in completely the wrong direction and a defence, on paper, which should have been our best, was let down by one component - his careless pass into (was it Ilicic's) path exposed both Alex and Zapata and neither could recover.

In short, IMO MDS cost us 3rd place.

He's been as out of form as SES for about the same length of time.

He is known to make positional mistakes on occasion, not today, and as I said had one of his errors lead to a goal you would be singing a different tune, a top defender like Silva wouldn't make those kinds of mistakes, otherwise he woukdn't be considered a top defender

I don't deny his media performances haven't been the best, but in his defence is he actually meant to come out after one bad result/performance and absolutely lay into them publicly? We've been in decent nick in recent matches, this display tonight was not the usual. If you castrate them after one bad one you lose support in the dressing room.

Privately I'm sure he'll be going for their throats and demanding more for Wednesday, but publicly, for now, he has to be supportive, and I back him on that.

It's his team selections, strategies, and subs I'm beginning to question a tad.

I would disagree with one comment you made - neither side really had any initiative in this match - it was a fucking terrible game and Fio made few chances and little possesion. They were horrible. We had that one for the taking and we mucked it up. I just don't know why.

I don't agree that he's been poor since Parma. He was good against Empoli and Chievo, he tried against Juve, and he was lethargic against Cesena like the rest of the team.

But tonight he was downright frustrating. It's not that he doesn't try. He was constantly pressing their defenders and making a lot of movement, but it was his individualism which annoyed the hell out of me. He doesn't pass the ball when he's supposed to, and tries these stupid one-on-one duels that only give more time and space to the opponent. He should try to be more of a team player.



MDS has to be dropped! If Pippo doesn't get it even after tonight then he's just a masochist.



If one of his passes had cost us a goal tonight then I would have rightfully criticized him for that, but that takes nothing from his defensive performance. He might not be a world beater, but between him and Rami right now I'd choose Zapata every day of the week. Plus I think he and Alex complement each other perfectly.

He can say whatever he wants to the players, but don't be a frigging jerk to the fans, man! The least I need after such a pitiful performance is Pippo telling me that we have many reasons to be pleased tonight.

And I do think Fiorentina had the initiative. They were the ones in control of the game, but that's not equivalent to them playing well. They were bad, but at least they tried. Instead, we seemed happy with closing them down and counterattacking every time we had a chance. That's not the way to go, at all.

I understand the frustration, we all wanted a win. We all wanted to see creativity and 10/10 subs. And we all wanted Milan back with a BANG.

But sometimes that does not happen via a kick-start rather a gradual improvement.

PS: Hope the next game comes with 3 points though.

Haha...I knew this would be the reaction here. We start off the season saying we'll be satisfied with fifth, but the moment we lose out on a chance to make 3rd it's all hellfire.

Not a surprising result actually. Truth be told I agree with Pippo's assessment completely. The defence as a team was the best I've seen from Milan this season. The offence, on hindsight perhaps we shouldn't have dropped Torres and broken the front three chemistry.

Fiorentina had looked to keep tabs on Honda, Menez was dropping deep.

In a nutshell, this game went the way it did because neither team could gain control in midfield, which is credit to us because we don't have a single creative player in midfield and they struggled with Aquilani looking distinctly horrible.

De Sciglio is a bit off. Going through a rough patch, and I'm worried that the constant stream of changing defenders and left flank attackers leaves him confused. But we expect much more from him. I think the right thing to do is not place too much pressure on him and destroy him like they did Santon.

This performance is a 6.5/10 for me. All season we're a 7.5/10.

Anyway, Montolivo coming back is essential for this squad. Torres isn't firing. We should have expected that he would take a full season to get good.

See this is what bothers me Danny, not doing this to defend DS, but you're basically blaming him for this result after making a mistake that Zapata repeated THREE TIMES over, only DS got punished Zapata didn't.

Yes, DS made an error, he was unfortunately the unlucky one who got punished for it, that's usually what happens when things are just not going right for you.

Now, this is not to say that I'm defending his performances in general, I thought he'd done better last week vs Verona and I still stand by that, and I thought defensively he was generally okay today. It's the other aspects of his game that are really worrying for me, I agree with you that he needs to be dropped for a game or 2, catch his breath, reflect. He's been playing constantly for club and country now for these last 2 months, a break could do him well.

However, please, do not blame this loss on him, this loss was the entire side's fault, we all knew we would never be able to keep a clean sheet, trying to sit on a 1-0 when we're one of the leakiest defences in the league for me is the definition of stupid, that has to fall on Pippo, the attitude of the players (all of them) was just unbelievable to watch, they had this in their grasps, 2 points away from Roma and they let it slip away


I've been questioning this for a while, the selections have been horrible from day 1 and they haven't improved, only have gotten worse imo as he has all his options open and still decides to persist with Muntari, Menez back as a false 9 and dropping Torres was also a mistake and you were also right about DS, he shouldn't keep persisting with him when he's so clearly out of form, sitting a couple of games down will do him some good


I'm sorry but I can't understand how you'd say that. When your starting CB is constantly in danger of costing you a goal because of his horrific passing then I can't see how he's your best option, just does not make any sense.

@ Jack, nice try trying to play it off, but the key point here is that we had a golden opportunity tonight and not only did we not take it but we lazily p!ssed it away. Watching them jogging around instead of actually trying to spark something in the last 10 minutes was appalling, they were happy with the draw and I'm sorry but I can never accept this kind of attitude, especially when facing a toothless Fiorentina.

As for the midfield, you say you expect this to happen because we have no creative players, how logical... We've lost the midfield battle in pretty much every game this season, any half decent side we face is going to get a result against us playing with this kind of midfield, I'm wondering, do you still think it's the right way to go to play all of Poli, Muntari and De Jong at the same time? Even after seeing this awful performance where we couldn't string 3 passes together and Fiorentina had the upper hand in the game from start to finish?

I despise the jogging argument. Did you see the pressing in the first half? That takes stuff out of you in terms of energy. Ilicic is a great long ball shot...and trust me if he hadn't unleashed that shot and instead tried to dribble just a few metres longer, our boys would have been back and snuffed it out.

That was a great shot and deserved a goal. Too much fuss is being made out of it.

In a way it shows our improvement that from resignation we've gone up to frustration. Give this team some time. We're a shite team playing better than we ought to.

You're making excuses though

The jogging argument is frustrating because it's true. The fact that we were happy to pass it around in the last 10 minutes instead of trying to spark some pace in our game and put them under pressure is what's so bad and frustrating after this performance

We pressed them? We let them have the ball and tried to counter on them for most of the game! That's small club tactics all the way.

A deserved goal because Fiorentina were the side with the upper hand throughout the game, they deserved the goal, because we played in a way that just allowed them to control the game

We do not have a midfield capable of keeping possession, simple as that, and until Pippo starts playing players in there who know how to keep hold of the ball better we'll continue having these problems.

You're forgetting, looking comfortable against this Fiorentina side in defence is no big feet, they've been toothless without Rossi and Gomes this season, they've been struggling to score goals, and not only could we not keep a clean sheet against them at home while we were leading, we also failed to dominate the game and take the initiative in the San Siro.

At least under both Seedorf and Allegri we'd have kept hold of the ball and tried to put pressure on them, we kept possession better (even if it was useless possession) we just do not know how to do that under Pippo, and that's going to cost us as the season goes on if that's not fixed. And first order of business to do that would be to bring in players in midfield who are not jut there to run around like headless chickens and lose the ball as soon as they receive it

Ha! Ha! Ha!

Are you still of the opinion that playing both Muntari and Polii gives us balance and makes us sound defensively? That's 11 goals conceded in 8 games, Jack. Not only we keep conceding and losing points because of it, but it affects the way we play because no-one in our midfield can hold the ball. We end up closing ourselves in our own half and letting the opponent have the initiative. It's happened in almost every game this season.

I said after the first half that I liked how we were defending and how we were constantly pressing their players, but you think van Ginkel or Bonaventura can'd do that? We need more quality in midfield, at this point it's become too obvious even for those who thought it was OK a few weeks ago.

Remember my rant after the Juve game? I said that game reflected Pippo's mentality, and so far that mentality hasn't changed a bit, be it against Verona or Fiorentina. We just cannot take a grasp of the game, hold possession, cool things down, make the opponent lose their initiative. But no, we just sit back in the hope of not conceding. There's a name for teams who play like that, they're called mid-table teams!

We have accumulated 15 points in 8 games, so what? Udinese, Sampdoria and Lazio have more points than us, and they 1) have inferior players, 2) were placed even lower than us last season.

Suddenly, not being 8th and not losing every game is considered a success here. Oh my, oh my...

I'm of the opinion that playing Muntari and Poli is better than playing Muntari or Essien. Because there is no one else, everyone else is out injured. Saponara, MvG, Montolivo everyone.

Oh wait, yes...your idea is we play Bonaventura there. We did play him though in the end.

There was Bonaventura, Torres, SeS and Honda in a 4-2-4/4-2-3-1 formation and yet we couldn't do much.

The Viola are a good team, that's played together for a few years now. We will take time to gel. We're just 8 games into a season and our main midfield player is yet to start.

The result was frustrating and I'm sure there will be more work done on the training ground. But you guys make it sound like we're back fighting relegation.

Actually Jack the only one who lost the overall plot last night was Han. I was raging about that result alone but not the season, and while I have concerns about Pippo (as do others like X), it's only fair I'm annoyed about dropped two points which lost us third place compared with sixth.

Perhaps a little less melodramatic old chap?

MvG has been available for two games now, so has Saponara. Pippo had everyone available for this game bar Montolivo, there's no excuses.

Bonaventura, even Honda would be more appropriate in midfield than in attack. He's no winger no matter how Pippo desperately tries to pull him as one.



Oh yes, in the end, when everyone was tired. Even so, we did play much better the first 10 minutes after Bonaventura came in, but that didn't last for long cos the end of the game was approaching and players started getting tired.



The Viola are a good team that's playing like crap this season and miss their two best strikers.

And you make it sound like our team is a completely new one. Bar Alex and Menex, everyone else was available from last season. It's been five months since Pippo took over this team, we should start seeing results by now, but instead we keep seeing the same mistakes being made over and over again. It's frustrating as hell.



The competition for 3rd place this season is more open than any other time. We really have a possibility because the other teams are all very inconsistent. If we keep losing points like this and playing like crap, of course people are gonna be pissed.

We should have won last night, but we didn't and played a very poor game. Stop making excuses.

Saved me a lot of typing. Agreed on all accounts.

Giving Torres and Bonaventura 10 minutes at the end when we where seemingly not inclined to do anything but pass the ball around is not going to do anything.

You're missing the point jack, NONE of us want both Poli AND Muntari on the pitch, least of all when you already have De Jong as the anchor.

Neither Poli, nor Muntari are creative but at least Poli is a bit more forward thinking and uses the ball better

Our point is, playing both De Jong and Poli at the same time is already a bit of a stretch, playing both of them plus Muntari is overkill to the nth degree

Just ridiculous that Fiorentina had more talent in midfield than s last night, most teams in Serie A do

We're playing a 4-3-3 a formation heavily reliant on the midfield to create and we're playing 3 players who do not have a creative bone in their body FFS. Add to that you have the tactical liability that is Muntari and you have the disaster we see week in week out in midfield

Fact is our midfield needs to be contrived of a CM a DM and another CM, the 2 guys on the side need to be creative/smart on the ball, neither Poli, nor Muntari are that which is why they shouldn't be playing next to our DM; De Jong

Also, don't tell us he doesn't have options, we have everyone fit and ready to play aside from Monto, he has options, he's choosing to ignore them to go the conservative route that's mostly doing more harm than good


Where did I lose the plot?

How you guys all agree with Danny giving MDS a 1 and then nit pick about Zapata is beyond me. Funny, funny.

Yep, that's child's logic, but for Jack somehow it's rocket science.

Simple: DS played like sh*t, Zapata didn't.

What do you mean?

I didn't agree with the rating per se, I thought he was defensively okay but other aspects of his game are worrying me atm and I think he needs to be benched for one or two games, that's why I agree with Danny's general view (didn't want to criticise his rating because he gets touchy about those, note the sarcastic ok when I didn't agree about Zapata)

I think he mostly deserved a 5.

For me, making consistent costly/potentially costly mistakes balances out with them

This would be my rating as well. But you said "I lost you with Zapata" therefore clearly agreeing that MDS should get a 1.

Brilliant post!

Esteem, self respect, notable progress in playing style, team unity, the right balance in selection, and more importantly a positive game plan, doesn't require $$$, and should be the minimum required from a coach. I, for one, don't care too much about the results, but these factors above.

Because, whoever gets this right, is going to start winning respect and start winning points. Maybe we have filled our squad with a few duds that don't care about the shirt they're wearing, or maybe it's the coach that has failed to motivate and gel together the team. But play like this, and we're going to end up nowhere.

As I said, I didn't want to criticise his ratings, but I personally don't' agree with the over exaggerated 1 rating, for me to think someone is a 1 or 2 they'd have to have done something terrible along with a seriously shambolic display.

Well, it wasn't as clear as now

Anyway, new poll is here

I said ok because I respect your opinion. I just couldn't agree less with it and felt it was better to not bother debating. I still feel that way.

Getting a few criticisms of my 1. But I stand by that. I don't think he made a single interception or useful pass all night. Constantly fouling, never making a decent run, and on the rare occasions he got forward, did nothing except lose the ball. And giving the ball straight to Ilicic for their goal. If that's not worthy of basically the lowest score, what is?

This guy has been going downhill for well over a season now.

I truly excused him last season based on him playing on the right, but I think in general I was just plain wrong. It's sad, given many saw him as the future of the club, and a future captain, but his form is just so painful right now.

I plead with Pippo to start Armero on Wednesday.

We agree on Abate, De Jong...er...Bona? Honda?

Let's work with that!

It IS worth nothing, after the rage from yesterday subsides, that we have still lost just one match this season, and Pippo IS still a rookie manager who's doing far better than Allegri was by the end and Seedorf did overall.

3 draw, one defeat and 4 wins is still a very decent return given what we might have expected. Sure, we could be third and joyous right now rather than all the 'what ifs', but end of the day my personal target was always fifth, and if we get that, I'm very happy indeed.

But Pippo really needs to start playing his best team and picking players based on form and not reputation. He also needs to drop players who don't deserve to be playing.

For example, he rightly dropped Torres who's been diabolical, and that was ballsy. But Muntari and MDS need to follow, and he needs to pick the best team he has, removing as many of the out of form players as possible.

Right now, IMO, that's:

--------------Lopez

Abate-----Alex-----Zapata-----Armero

Bona---------De Jong------Van Ginkel

--------------Honda

-------Torres------Pazzo

1: Abbiati hasn't done much wrong really but Lopez should be our number one.

2: MDS needs dropping.

3: That midfield...yum.

4: Honda needs to be behind the strikers.

5: Pazzo deserves a shot - been a fringe player and can't do much worse than SES etc have.

6: Torres - perhaps he needs a strike partner, and also needs better service, which Honda can definitely provide.

It's sad, because for all the riches we supposedly have in attack, we actually don't. SES is woeful, Menez is disappointing and selfish, Torres has been ghastly but I've not given up on him yet, and the only one left is Pazzo.

Honda is the one who's been great recently. Worth pointing out he's actually joint second top scorer in Serie A with Tevez.

Torres and Pazzo together? Can you imagine the horror?

I agree about the rest. Honda should play in midfield, either as CM or AM doesn't matter. Just not on the wing. And one between SES and Menez should always start.

I was desperate.



Yet neither is producing much. This is what I meant about us theoretically having an embarrassment of riches up front yet actually not.

If I had to pick between those two it would reluctantly be Menez. SES is horrendous in an attacking sense, and Menez has shown signs of form this season for sure, but really needs to improve his fitness, attitude, and use of the ball.

Right now he reminds me of Taarabt - who had all the tools to be world class but his attitude was selfish and he didn't use the ball well.

But it's really like choosing between shite and manure, at the moment.

That all said I do believe our attacking trio, whoever they are, suffers from the fucking terrible midfields Pippo keeps selecting.

I think this "didn't want to get into a debate" thing is so ridiculous! Why are we here if not to debate things pertaining to Milan? Should we all be here writing to ourselves while others either nod along or don't say anything if they don't agree?

As for SES and Menez, I really don't get why you guys are so constantly looking for reasons to come down on SES, he's been nothing great so far this season, I admit that, but he needs some consistent playing time, he hasn't started 2 games in a row now in months. Some people here are so fickle I just cannot stand it, with some players at the first sign of not doing well people or so gung ho about throwing them under the bus it's unbelievable, yet with others it's seemingly ignored.

If Muntari can start games for us for 3 seasons running, no matter what he does on the pitch then anyone deserves a good chance as well.

SES will get back into form, and he'll only do that if he's playing consistently, Menez is a bit of selfish git, but I still think he's a great asset to have on the team, he's just not a false 9 FFS so stop playing him there Pippo. Torres is coming off some nightmarish times at Chelsea, he's coming from a different league as well, he needs time to adapt, but either way, he's still important in how our attacking trio functions, imo, scoring or not, he needs to be starting.

This is just the same as with Honda when people were calling him nothing but a marketing tool 2 months into his first season with us.

I can say the same thing about you and Zapata. You always write him off beforehand, and even if he has an excellent performance you nitpick on his passing to put him down.



Will he now? Granted, the guy is only 22, but what has he shown so far to demand praise or even start games for that matter? Two assists and then nothing. Not to mention he was on an awful spell even before his injury.

Dead horse and flog. Fruitless.



No one wants him in the team apart from himself and Pippo.



He's shown 4 months of form since January 2011. Not going to happen. After my brief foray into believing in him at the start of the season he's back to the failure he's become, alas.



He's played there 3 times. Two times with increasing success and then yesterday's disaster. Otherwise he's been on the wing.



Yes, I am giving Torres 'Honda time'. But Honda wasn't coming from bad form and loss of confidence.

I'm sorry, I thought a defender was not supposed to assist the opposition... Silly me. If this was Muntari you'd be harping along with me.

I'm not a Zapata hater, I think he's a decent player and a good back up guy, but to be starting? When he's such a liability? Nope, can't accept that personally, next time he makes a mistake and costs us a goal, we'll see how you feel about him, and there will be a next time, he does this thing with his passing once or twice in every game.

I think he will, getting constantly on his back won't change anything. Like I said, he hasn't played twice in a row in I don't know how many months. If he's given a decent run back in the side and still can't get back into form, then I'll agree with you, until then, I'm choosing to give him a chance


Um... And about 90% of other Milan fans want him in the side, just because you're impatient with players doesn't mean that everyone else is

Refer to what I said to x-off on that part

Honda was coming from the Russian league having been playing constant football since before the Confed Cup, add to that the massive culture shock, not knowing the language at all, etc

At least Torres is more familiar, he's Spanish in another Latin country, he won't need as much time to adapt, but it's been only a handful of games FFS, to write him off now would be ridiculous

If Muntari offered good performances and messed up the occasional pass every now and then I wouldn't have anything against him.



And Rami is better? How exactly? Zapata is superior to him in every aspect. Positioning, anticipation, speed, even on the air he's better.

Occasional pass? Doing it in every game is not within the definition terms of occasionally

I think they're at the same level as defenders, Zapata can be a bit more spectacular at times with his sliding tackles but at least with Rami you don't have your heart in your throat every time he's on the ball and you're anticipating for him to do something stupid, like pass it right at the opposition or try to dribble out of defence and lose the ball

He doesn't do it in every game. He did it a couple of times last night so you're blowing this out of proportion.

Rami can be very clueless when it comes to positioning, and that's fundamental for a defender. Plus he's shown that he can easily be beaten 1-on-1. I don't trust him.