HONDA!!!!!!!

wonderful goal by honda

he really should play through the middle.

Get in!...Come on one more!

Was that Abate with the assist?

I saw things under Allegri that my eyes will never unsee!

Yep.

SOOOOOOOOOOO UNLUCKY!!!

That's 4 in 4 now then. Nice!

Menez.. so close, brilliant dribbling by torres

Torres has been doing well.

Yeah, he's great. Almost with another at the moment.

But he was selfish with that shot!

Edit: Torres I mean.

Seems like we don't have it in us to score another.

Yep. If Inzaghi had not played Bonera, now we wouldn't be in this desperate situation.

FT 2-2. miserable match

And Muntari. In some of the predicted line ups we were without both of them and I really wanted to see that but Pippo seems to want to learn the hard way, jut like Allegri. Hope for him that he's a better student.

I don't have any 'hopes' for him. I get that if he doesn't play those 2, someone else might still pull off stupid mistakes, but when you have two consistent culprits and you keep fielding them, then the problems is less the players and more the manger. Muntari and Bonera keep costing us. Bonera keeps upping the ante and yet Inzaghi just completely ignores this fact. It's very hard for me to be sympathetic toward him right now...

Completely different second half. Bonera and Muntari should never play again. Abate MOTM for Milan.

Missed the last 10 minutes cos of crappy connection.

I think if anything this game was the perfect learning lesson for Pippo. Never play Bonera, never play Muntari, and never play such a flat midfield again. It was clear as crystal how our game and approach changed when Bonaventura came in. We need to keep this disposition in future games, and play two capable CBs in defense.

Now, the only question is: will Pippo learn from his mistakes? I'm curious to see...

We have to now that Van Ginkel and Saponara are injured. If we play with flat midfield we won't have any subs left. Van Ginkel's injury was kinda a blessing in disguise for this game. I couldn't see us coming back from 2 - 0 if Inzaghi hadn't made that change.

I agree but I'm still giving him time because he's a rookie and we are after just 4 games. But of course, he must get his **** together and he won't get immunity forever.

New poll here

One thing:

We must give Pippo a proper chance. What made created the term "Allegriesque" or simply "Allegri" is the fact that he didn't learn from his mistakes. And I'm not only speaking from one defeat to another, or from one week to another. Allegri had unbelievable credit and still managed somehow to touch ground zero.

Inzaghi still has time and a lot to learn. We need to be patient and understand that he's a rookie. Sure, our Allegri memories are fresh, but I still think Inzaghi has it in him to be better and adapt much faster.

The next few weeks will tell us the first signs of progress or status quo. Bonera is the first real test.

This is what I said before the match. The inclusion of Bonera and Muntari for me was appalling. I'm not going to get on Pippo's back just yet, but I really cannot accept the fact that these 2 were allowed onto the pitch to be able to even make the mistakes they made. Because they should have NEVER been in there in the first place after the performances they put in during the last 3 games. Absolutely cannot accept or comprehend Pippo's decision to include them once again into the line-up especially when he has much more competent options on the bench.

That being said I don't want to appear to be completely "obsessed" with those 2. Some other guys who deserve a good talking to for me are Zapata and DS. DS just hasn't been on his game, he needs to wake up and fast. Zapata on the other hand was just as bad as Bonera imo. I personally don't really rate him as highly as some on here do. Some of his positioning and decision making were atrocious. Him and Bonera are the dynamic duo of hilarity as a CB partnership, both are just clueless and should never be used with each other again.

As for the rest, were it not for 4 ridiculous mistakes, we would have won this. Thankfully not all those mistakes were punished.

I like how we played when we switched to a 4-2-3-1, Honda through the centre and Poli in the double pivot worked very well. Bonaventura is really impressive as well.

Special mention for Torres as well who really impressed me and deserved another for all his hard work

Also, I'm having some major issues with milanfan atm. I'm having to post through a proxy because I just cannot access the website through my home network. I just cannot figure out WTF is going on. I've tried every single browser, I've flushed the DNS cache, I deleted the browser cookies, I try to ping from my router diagnostics it's a success but when I do it from command prompt it tells me that the location cannot be reached, I checked my firewall, everything. I'm seriously stumped atm, and watched the game while doing all of this in the background.

The forum was done for about 24 hours, but Mike fixed it. Not sure what's causing the problem. Maybe ask Mike?

http://lineupbuilder.com/?sk=4w71

Nuff said! By far our best possible formation/line-up. Yes, even Mexes. I'm seriously tired of Bonera and Zapata, and Alex doesn't convince me enough.

Someone mass-print this and stick it all over Milanello please.

Yeah, I know, but for some strange reason now that it's up again, I can't access it without a proxy (which is annoying). Now I've made some headway and changed my DNS to the google DNS and it's working through chrome.

However, when I switch it back to an automatic DNS, boom, "This web page cannot be displayed".

Just very strange. I've never had any of these issues before, and I also can't access it through my phone when I'me using my home wi-fi, I have to switch to the 3g connection to be able to access the website. Seriously stumped. And since no one is having this issue, I'm going to assume there's nothing wrong with the site, but something on my end.

Now I'm going to try to connect to my neighbour's wi-fi (they have a different service provider) see if I can access it when I'm on their network

Love how Alex doesn't convince you enough when he was outstanding V Lazio and hasn't actually played since!

Tonight was pretty much jekyll and hyde stuff. Some excellent attacking play, with Torres absolutely on fire and a wonderful finish from Honda but Muntari is a bombscare and Bonera is 100% finished.

The Bonera I was impressed by last season is gone and he's Sassuolo Bonera every match now.

If Pippo is going to succeed he needs to put personal allegiances aside and drop the weak links. 2 of Zapata/Rami/Alex - preferably world cup quarter finalist Zapata and Alex, in defence, thank you.

Midfield no more Muntari. Had enough, he's absolutely diabolical now - Poli did more in his cameo than Muntari has all season.

Bona showed his class in attacking midfield which is exactly where I said he should be playing, and MvG was absolutely excellent till his injury.

Honda again wasted on the right. He's showing real signs of class but you can see the frustration of him having to cut back EVERY time!

There IS a good team here, a very good team. But if Pippo keeps on making the same mistakes as Seedorf and Allegri then it becomes clear he's not picking the team. And if he is he needs to put any friendships to the side and do what's best for the club.

Bonera & Muntari cannot start again. Ever.

Some of the comments on FB for Bonera are priceless.

- Bonera is poorer than the oxygen on Jupiter.
- Bonera makes me miss Roque Junior.
- We won so much with him on the bench, why change position?
- A gardener, a bag-handler, a waterman, a pole, a colander... Anything but a football player!
- Lock Bonera and Muntari in the locker room!
- The color of sh*t is Bonera.
- Bonera is more illegal than Gervinho without hair band.
- In Empoli's second goal Bonera was marking De Jong.
- More unwatchable than a Vietam-Faroe Islands game.

And many, many more...

Agreed on all accounts Danny aside from the CB issue. I think Zapata is at times just as liable as Bonera is, people only like him because he's fast, one of the great misgivings Fifa has introduced to football, if you're fast, you can do anything. Zapata could have been just as culpable as Bonera today only his mistake were not punished while Bonera's were.

Also didn't you love how Bonera turned to his teammates and tried to blame them for both goals after he was caught horribly out of position on both occasions? True captain stuff right there.

The player that's really doing amazing stuff atm is Abate for me, and everyone seems to be looking over this, as if they don't want to admit how wrong they were about him in the first place.

I'm really glad that he's proven me right this season, he's worked his @ss off throughout his career, especially during these last few years and really has emerged as a true great RB. Not only is he defensively solid, which he has been throughout these last 4 season, but he's also now become a full blown threat in attack, not only because of his overlapping runs that widen our play (which he always did) but now he has the end product to back that up 4 assists in 4 is nothing to scoff at.

One good match doesn't make a difference. He wasn't very good against Parma.

But you know, I don't even care that much about the CBs. Any two players between Rami, Mexes, Alex and Zapata would be fine as long as Bonera and Muntari don't ever set foot on the pitch again, and we play like we did in the second half.

He wasn't very good v Parma because a Mr D Bonera was his partner.

Zapata looked very solid V Lazio. Every time he's been paired with Bonera THAT'S when he's been a nightmare.



Nah he's not any better than he was, it's just people are finally appreciating him. You know I ALWAYS rated him.



He's a top, top class RB and while he was linked with a move away, I am glad we kept him. I only endorsed the move away because it seemed DS was going to take RB by default and Abate would be benched.

Horrible match.

I have to now place Muntari on the poor list. I also think Poli played much better on the left of midfield than on the right (his usual position). Leads me to believe that perhaps that will make the difference.

Bonera at CB was a poor pick. I like Bonera but even I was aghast at that pick. Unless Rami was injured I don't know what the reason was.

I already voted in the other thread, but for me Flop: Muntari (He was hauled off at half time) and Top: Menez.

It's a huge shame, but when I see the team play, only Menez and Torres remotely look like they have any confidence on the ball. The others treat it like it's made of molten lava and get it away from them as soon as possible without any thought.

---

My final thoughts, this formation is all wrong. The 4-3-3 I feel is a formation for dynamic team with technique and poise on the ball and defensive solidity without it. We don't have it. And after 3 years, I don't see us drilling it into the players.

For me, we have to go with the old-fashioned flat/diamond moving 4-4-2 .

This 4-3-3 simply leaves too much space in midfield, either for attacking or defending, and our players are appearing too static for any sort of progress. So until Montolivo comes back, this is my chosen formation:

Abate---Rami---Alex---DeScig/Armero [Disappointed by MDS's performances as fullback)
----------------NdJ----------------------
-----MVG/Jack-------Poli/Jack----------
---------------Honda--------------------
-------------Menez[FREE ROLE]--------
-------Torres---------------------------


- We need to cover more space, and our midfield especially needs to be more compact.
- I know I've benched SeS, but for me it's a choice of form. Menez is now 5 times the player SeS is anyway.
- Another thing would be for the fullback to hustle up and crowd out the midfield in the defensive possesion phase, while the back three compacts up to be a 3 man backline.
-Rami and Alex are for me the most trustable CB pairing. Rami is quick, while Alex is calm, gives us good aerial strength and Rami will cover for his occasional brainfarts.

Other points:

Not including Mexes, since he seems to be exiled.

Benched Muntari. Can come on when we want to hold on to a lead. Also Bonera is a fullback for me. Can give Abate some rest. We'll just play Armero on the wing for the attack when playing Bonera who is a more solid type.

Zapata was okay against Lazio, did the bare minimum while also including one of his priceless passes to the opposition right in front of our area (something he always seems to manage to do). I still think our best CB pairing has to include Mexes no matter who the other pick is, Zapata is a mess next to Bonera because he's just as incapable of actually taking initiative and being the one to lead the line and cover the spaces left by the guy next to him. You blame Mexes for a lot that happened last season, but when Allegri was playing him next to Zapata and Constant, Mexes was doing all he could to cover both their @sses plus doing his own job, I think he's a very underrated player, and most people only have a bone to pick against him because he earns what he does, which isn't his fault as the management are the ones who offered him that contract

Yeah, I know you've always backed him as a player, I was talking in general, and not just on this forum. Everyone underrates Abate and calls him a headless chicken that just runs forward. Which is ridiculous. He's a very defensively sound RB, something that other attacking RBs don't offer, plus he offers a lot going forward, and not just when he's making assists. And yet still people are reluctant to even complement him now.


I love it that you've basically fallen into what me and some others here have been saying for a while now, about Muntari, about Bonera, about how completely inept our midfield is on the ball, which in turn creates issues for us both in attack and defence

I personally think Pippo needs to find away to include all of Honda, SES, Menez and Torres in the line-up

I like Jack's idea of Menez drifting in a free role far more then when he's fixated on the right/left wing.

The biggest issue/question is SES. He seems to me like a Inter-Pirlo. A player undoubtedly talented, capable and still young, but with no ideal position. I'm not sure he's a good winger, in fact, I'm pretty sure he isn't. Then again, he isn't a pure/central striker either. I'd try linking Torres with SES like Pippo and Sheva were linked, but then you have the problem of Menez who wouldn't be compatible for such a formation.

Yeah I don't think SES will ever make it out wide.

For me SeS can play behind Torres. I believe SeS and Menez occupy roughly the same styles at times, so it is difficult to play them both. One would require to shackle himself while the other plays so as to remain balanced. But this makes the other player look bad.

This can only be resolved if we get an Isco or a Modric type player who can dink around passes in the final third, bringing both players into play effectively.

@han: I still like Bonera a lot. But that's not to say he isn't without his faults. I would have been far more confident if yesterday he had started next to Alex. He needs a calm head as a partner and not a dynamic player. That just makes his faults glare at times. As for Muntari, yesterday might have been a bad day at office. But his job description is too unclear. I thought he was good in the first game, where he limited himself to play the simple pass and keep things moving. A pure water-carrier role. The problem is the moment our midfield gets strangled and he is out of options, as a player he either gets tensed or over-ambitious and worsens matters.

Even with Poli it doesn't matter. I insist that the 4-3-3 is dead to us. It will not work with the players we have.

Not keen on a 3-man midfield. We clearly don't have the personnel for it. You clearly stated in your previous post that 4-3-3 is dead to us, but that's not only because the forwards aren't adaptable, but also because our players are not suited for a 3-man midfield.

Our best options right now would be either an offensive 4-2-3-1 (as I posted last night), or a more pragmatic yet not defensive-minded 3-4-1-2. I'd have Abate and Armero on the wings, De Jong and Poli in the double pivot and Honda behind Torres and Menez, who'd have a more free role as you put it. Kinda like what Napoli used to play under Mazzarri.



No disrespect, but anyone reading this would call you a fool right now. You still like Bonera? Muntari is fine? No, just no. If anything, last night's game proved what me, Han and many others have been saying all this time, i.e. that such a flat midfield would never work and those are two terrible, terrible players.

Extended highlights

Note how Bonera gets burned in the first goal as Muntari stands like an idiot doing nothing, and how in the second goal Bonera loses his man and goes marking the same man De Jong was. Amateurish defending.

Also, what formation were we playing in the second half? Was it by chance a 3-1-4-2? Abate and Bonaventura were clearly covering the wings, De Jong was also going back deep to protect the defense, whereas Poli and Honda did the CM. I'm pretty sure I got this right. And Menez was everywhere, a free role as Jack put it. That's the impression I got.

^^

I'm sorry, that site doesn't open for me. I'm at work. So if you could post that lineup in text, I'd be able to take a look.

Mm...so, likewise no disrespect but let me explain my thought process I still believe it is situational.

When Zapata or Abate or De Sciglio jumps out of position and ruins an offside trap leaving Bonera to take on a player one-on-one, which he fails at coz he's too slow - whose fault is it?

When you have zonal defence and a player scores, whose fault is it? The players holding the zones from which the scorer started the run, and continued or the player holding the zone in which the player landed for about a second before scoring.

I generally tend not to single out one player in the defence, especially on setpieces and especially when the team is doing zonal marking. But I'm weird on this forum. I find defending to be extremely f@cking hard. Second only to the deep lying playmaker position.

Muntari again is situational. There are games which the structure will suit him perfectly. There are games where he can't play except in a certain point of time. For e.g. against a high pressuring team (like Empoli in the first 40 minutes), when we have such a static lineup -> NdJ and MvG stayed flat on their positions, De Sciglio was painful in his build up play and Menez was double-marked, Muntari has not one option to make a straight pass. Here his flaw is that instead of hoofing it off to switch playing side or clear lines, he tries an ambitious pass that gives up possession.

So I won't pillory them.

But here's the thing. I will ship out Bonera, Mexes, Zapata, Muntari and Poli if it meant we would get Thiago Silva and Kroos/Modric/Isco/Di Maria.

So please understand I'm not saying that Muntari/Bonera etc are good players. I'm just trying to make do with what we have and utilise them to make best use of their limited talent set.

I never was especially fond of Bonera. The only thing that makes me like him is he sometimes resembles the old Italian defenders, doing his tackling and overall control over the defense.

But the problems outweigh everything else. And his age isn't even an issue; I remember a pretty young Bonera organizing horror shows with unbelievable repercussions. With his lack of speed, his constant injuries which took their toe, his lack of confidence and spatial orientation - I really don't see the point in keeping him or playing him.

Which site? Lineupbuilder? If that's the case:





Those are very specific situations you're describing there. No doubt our whole defensive system is in shambles right now, but that doesn't mean Pippo actually has to play Bonera now does it? It's not like if we were sounder defensively Bonera would shine or something. He's simply shite. He was atrocious against Parma, where he got sent off, and he was at fault at both goals last night. Why insist with him?

And Muntari, man, this argument will never cease, will it? To put it in plain, simple words: the guy is very, very limited technically, he's not very smart in his positioning, and he's super, duper lazy. And these elements become obvious in each and every single match he plays. Sure, against a non-existent Lazio any player would look good, but not every game is a walk in the park. He can't handle pressure, he can't handle a dynamic game and him playing affects our game substantially. It's like we're playing with 10 men whereas the opponent is playing with 12.

He has to be dropped, along with Bonera. End of.

No, I don't have any bone to pick with Mexes, I just don't think he's any good now. His form disintegrated last season. It started out as average then became downright poor. He did used to be pretty good, particularly alongside Zaps the season prior in the CL.

But f*ck sake is every conversation we have going to be an argument over Mexes?

EDIT: seems the swear filter is back on...

It's always been on. It just can't make a distinction between f*ck and fucking.

Haha. So the argument with Mexes came about I think because, we have played 4 games with 4 different CB combinations. Pippo made it clear that he would shift that round till he reached the best combination. So he's still experimenting. Only Abate seems to have his place set.

I think the only CB combination left to play is Alex-Rami which I curiously believe will be our best bet for a pairing not involving Mexes.

Since all our CB pairings have been poor, we're looking to Mexes. If he fails, we shall then complain about how we wasted money this transfer window instead of strengthening genuine areas of concern like midfield and defence.

Yeah, I also think Rami-Alex could be our best pairing not considering Mexes. Zapata-Alex wouldn't be that bad either, though I'm not very keen on it.

I dislike Zapata. I think of him as someone who requires too much covering from his partner. His pace and strength are his only assets. For me he is rotation material. Would I be rude in calling him a pawn to be used in the transfer market?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzJsR-fCWR0

I agree he is out of form. But I still would bench him. Let him get back to form in training.