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han2503
QUOTE (il_diavolo_mtl @ Aug 24 2013, 10:01 PM) *
This game isn't as bad as i think people seem to think it was..
I mean Montolivo, Abbiati Abate, Constant played bad but what i seem to be one of the only one's noticing, SES is the one who most dissapointed, WTF does he do!? he played to his standard invisibility and fear of doing anything other then passing it back and never runinng into dangerous positions.... give me Robinho anyday(!) until SES gets his head out of his ***-and more skill and talent goes into this hair then he puts into his game. Once more, we played with 10 men, and the aforementioned 4 of our 10 didn't perform well.

Really SES?

El Shaarawy's problem is that he's completely isolated out on the wing, and when teams play the way Verona did against us he's pretty much useless. Against PSV he had all the space he needed to be dangerous from that position, but in such a closed off game? Forget about it.

The problem is that with this formation our wingers are literally hugging the touchline, they're so wide and they start nearly parallel with Balo, so by the time our ultra slow midfield manages to get the ball near SES he's already closed down between 2 or 3 players. He has no option but to pass it back.

Niang was even worse because they actually did manage to get him on the ball a couple of times and all he did was put his head down, look at the ball and run in a straight line into the wall.

Balo was also pretty bad imo, his sulking and continuous diving to try and get the freekick even when he had chances to play the ball on was "pull you hair out" frustrating. Abate, again every attack we tried to go through him, but he made a couple of passing mistakes and in the end wasn't even bothering with it and just kept hitting his crosses at the players to see if he can get a corner off them. Nocerino, mostly invisible. Monto, aside from the first 20 minutes, he couldn't impose himself, he went up to high at times and left the midfield and defence stranded on those counters.

Mexes and Zapata, I don't know if it was them just being bad or if it was the fact that they were left stranded most of the time. The marking on the corners and free-kick was also appalling, I mean who's bright idea was it to let Constant mark Toni. The simple way Verona managed to cut us through while we laboured on and on to try to a find a way through was heart wrenching
han2503
QUOTE (il_diavolo_mtl @ Aug 24 2013, 10:09 PM) *
Who lost more balls then monto? who is to blame for being the highest man up on the field on the 5vs3 that Toni scored his second goal on? who's about the only RB in the league that can't cross for his life...HE WAS BROUGHT UP AS A ******* RW (position requiring a right-footed player to cross the ball into the box)

He's so high up because he is our ONLY attacking outlet FFS! Every time we try to attack we pass it to him when we get near the opposition's area. He made a couple of good crosses which no one went for because Balo is too deep and SES is usually too wide.

Yes in the second half he was terrible, but give me one other name that wasn't. Everyone was making some pretty shocking passing decisions.

The fact that we get so caught out on counters has absolutely NOTHING to do with ONE player, it's the tactics. If you're going to have your fullbacks so high up then some of your midfield has to sit back, but as usual, everyone was pushed up, even Mexes and Zapata at times, so we were getting caught out basically each time on the counter. And this has been a hallmark of Allegri's Milan since day 1. Remember that Cesena game in our Scudetto winning season, a horror show of pushing up and getting caught out.

The only time this was fixed under Allegri was when we had Van Bommel and when Abate and the LB did push up he'd sit deep and form a back 3 with the CBs
kurtsimonw
QUOTE (han2503 @ Aug 24 2013, 10:59 PM) *
Constant, Niang and Nocerino are all pretty average players, yes. But the others? Who is overrated from that bunch?

You already know my opinion on Abate, I don't rate him as a top RB. I think Mexes/Zapata really aren't all that special either. Neither would get into a top side IMO.

How was Poli today?
han2503
QUOTE (kurtsimonw @ Aug 24 2013, 11:17 PM) *
You already know my opinion on Abate, I don't rate him as a top RB. I think Mexes/Zapata really aren't all that special either. Neither would get into a top side IMO.

How was Poli today?

Well Zapata no, but really, which top side has really top class CBs, 2 of them at that? Mexes would walk in a team like Barca imo because he's still better than what they currently have. Real CBs aside from Verane are all similar to Mexes in the way they are pretty great but prone to errors. United's Vidic/Rio combo hasn't been anything special in years now, City only have Kompany who's really top class.

Poli was good for the first 20 minutes or so, scored a pretty great goal as well, he's a very smart player, but after the goal - like the rest of the team actually he went off the boil, it felt like everyone slowed down and completely switched off. First 20 minutes of the game Verona didn't even touch the ball, after that we constantly gave it away, couldn't get anywhere near their penalty area, it was so lethargic, unimaginative. Basically a replay of last season.

As for Abate, give me a list of RBs who you think are in that top RB bracket
arivanjj
oh dear.. the season has started again...
Fillipo Simone
QUOTE (Zed.D @ Aug 24 2013, 08:40 PM) *
Look at the bright side, if we lose this game and get kicked out of CL, maybe we'll see the back of Allegri.

Bright side? Naah, I was prepared to "look at the bright side" last season when I've already crossed the season off my calender after 10 matches - saying it's a total miss. But doing so again...that's simply unacceptable (though inevitable). We're simply wasting too much time - years with Allegri. That's really bad for a club with the reputation of Milan.

QUOTE (han2503 @ Aug 24 2013, 08:57 PM) *
Btw Filippo, I think we should just delete the Cagliari thread you opened, CLEARLY you're the reason why we're so sh!t tongue.gif

sad.gif

QUOTE (kurtsimonw @ Aug 24 2013, 10:59 PM) *
What's he supposed to do exactly? He doesn't sign the players. If the players are overrated and poor there's nothing he can do about it.

Didn't watch it. But I won £8 on betting on them to win. Easy money.

What's he suppose to do you ask? For starters, he should try making the same mistake for the n-th time. Also, he should learn to adapt and not constantly harp on a degraded system who is clearly not functioning and hasn't got the player selection to work. And that's just the two starting remarks. I can enlist you another dozen memo's to Allegri, but what's the point, really.

QUOTE (han2503 @ Aug 24 2013, 11:54 PM) *
Btw, no one here has mentioned Abbiati's mistake on that 2nd goal, his positioning was absolutely terrible, had he been guarding his near post like he should have then the tame header from Toni wouldn't have gone in.

So far he's made 2 crucial errors in 2 games.

It's worrying, a LOT. Especially considering that his deputy is either Gabrial (who has not impressed me AT ALL) or Amelia, who's decent but again, not good enough to be a regular

I don't blame it on Abbiati at all. Toni's headers and movement is quite hard to catch, but firstly Constant should have done better with dealing Janković and secondly Zapata with the header.
William405
Our CBs are fine..they were put under heavy pressure when Verona countered. Various instances, I remember Zapata and Mexes having 3-4 players running at them. Not that they didn't do any mistakes though.
The whole system was wrong imo, I can't pinpoint it but I guess Montolivo at DM wasn't ideal.
Fillipo Simone
Ideal? It was terrible. But that's the problem with Monto. You can't put him as a AM, you can't put him in the deeper Pirlo position. In the end, you have to adapt the whole damn system to his needs, but he isn't exactly Pirlo so it's highly questionable if it pays out. Sure, a team like Fiorentina could afford it. And sure, Italy with De Rossi and Pirlo around can use Monto as a bonus. But you can't depend on him. He's simply said not that good.
Fillipo Simone
Oh yes, new poll here
Rossoneri7
QUOTE (Fillipo Simone @ Aug 25 2013, 04:52 AM) *
Ideal? It was terrible. But that's the problem with Monto. You can't put him as a AM, you can't put him in the deeper Pirlo position. In the end, you have to adapt the whole damn system to his needs, but he isn't exactly Pirlo so it's highly questionable if it pays out. Sure, a team like Fiorentina could afford it. And sure, Italy with De Rossi and Pirlo around can use Monto as a bonus. But you can't depend on him. He's simply said not that good.


Couldn't agree more ... Every-time I watch him play in our midfield I reminisce on Clarence :/
han2503
QUOTE (Fillipo Simone @ Aug 25 2013, 01:39 AM) *
I don't blame it on Abbiati at all. Toni's headers and movement is quite hard to catch, but firstly Constant should have done better with dealing Janković and secondly Zapata with the header.

How can you NOT blame him??

He was standing nearly in the centre of the goal when Toni hit the ball, had he been properly positioned he would have easily got that.

It's so typical of him to make an amazing save one minute and then completely messes up in the next. He's just not good enough anymore. Next summer we need to fix our goal keeping situation first thing

QUOTE (William405 @ Aug 25 2013, 01:44 AM) *
Our CBs are fine..they were put under heavy pressure when Verona countered. Various instances, I remember Zapata and Mexes having 3-4 players running at them. Not that they didn't do any mistakes though.
The whole system was wrong imo, I can't pinpoint it but I guess Montolivo at DM wasn't ideal.

Yes the problem was with Monto, but again, it goes down to tactics, if you're going to make the entire midfield 3 push up + the fullbacks as well then these counters are inevitable. If Allegri was going to have Monto basically joining the attack then he should have made Nocerino and Poli drop behind him, simple. It was basically Abbiate, Mexes, Zapata sitting back, and the rest all pushing up. So what do you expect really?

QUOTE (Fillipo Simone @ Aug 25 2013, 01:52 AM) *
Ideal? It was terrible. But that's the problem with Monto. You can't put him as a AM, you can't put him in the deeper Pirlo position. In the end, you have to adapt the whole damn system to his needs, but he isn't exactly Pirlo so it's highly questionable if it pays out. Sure, a team like Fiorentina could afford it. And sure, Italy with De Rossi and Pirlo around can use Monto as a bonus. But you can't depend on him. He's simply said not that good.

I find your criticism of Monto to be OTT at times Fillipo.

Monto wasn't the problem, it was the retarded, back assed system we were playing that was the problem. He played in both the holding and mezzala roles last season to perfection, something Pirlo could never or would never do. He plays as an AM for Italy as well, how much more versatile do you want him to be exactly?

The problem yesterday was the system as I explained above, plus him playing a bad game as well (which I'm not denying) everyone is entitled to bad games, everyone was terrible yesterday, not just him
William405
QUOTE (han2503 @ Aug 25 2013, 10:57 AM) *
Yes the problem was with Monto, but again, it goes down to tactics, if you're going to make the entire midfield 3 push up + the fullbacks as well then these counters are inevitable. If Allegri was going to have Monto basically joining the attack then he should have made Nocerino and Poli drop behind him, simple. It was basically Abbiate, Mexes, Zapata sitting back, and the rest all pushing up. So what do you expect really?


Yeah, I totally agree. No denying Monto was bad though. Same story with how our CBs looked amateurish because of the immense pressure when we were counter attacked. I thought the problem was so obvious in the first half that Allegri would have certainly fixed in the second one.
Fillipo Simone
Yes, the problem is with the system. But I'm simply said not satisfied with Montolivo's effort and performances.

He's played badly for Italy as an AM, it's hardly a good example. And you say he's played his position last season to perfection? In 31 Serie A games he made 4 assists? That's just too little if you ask me. He just isn't creative enough - and that's the point: he's a good asset in a team that can find plenty of energy and creativity elsewhere. But when all comes down to him, he's nothing special.
han2503
QUOTE (Fillipo Simone @ Aug 25 2013, 12:37 PM) *
Yes, the problem is with the system. But I'm simply said not satisfied with Montolivo's effort and performances.

He's played badly for Italy as an AM, it's hardly a good example. And you say he's played his position last season to perfection? In 31 Serie A games he made 4 assists? That's just too little if you ask me. He just isn't creative enough - and that's the point: he's a good asset in a team that can find plenty of energy and creativity elsewhere. But when all comes down to him, he's nothing special.

Games against England and Germany for Italy in the Euros show how great he can still be playing as the AM.

But that's the thing, he's not going to make a whole lot of assists playing where he does on the pitch, it's pointless to debate that. He's not about the assists, his game is about conducting play, controlling the temp, etc. How many assists did Pirlo notch up each season with us for that matter?

I agree, so far he hasn't been playing in the same level he did last season, but it's not like we've played 10 games, we've only played 2 games so far.

Also, I said he played both the regista and mezzala positions last season to perfection when we needed to switch him around due to injuries and such
Fillipo Simone
Agreed. He played excellent against Barcelona as well - but this just comes to rarely. In the meantime he's full of performances like yesterday: half-heated, too many mistakes, too little effort and lacking quality (in the final pass, precision and shooting ability).

In this system, and with this team, he's absolute king. No one can do what he's doing, so I expect more.

Pirlo? He made a total of 16 assists last season. In 06/07 he made 10 assists with us, next season it was 11, and the following 6. But it was a team that had other sources of scoring and assisting goals. Get Pirlo into this team, and I'm sure he'd make more then 10 assists per season.

And that's what I mean. Montolivo is good, he's the best we have right now. I'm just not enchanted with the man, IMO he leaves too much to be desired for.
han2503
QUOTE (Fillipo Simone @ Aug 25 2013, 12:54 PM) *
Agreed. He played excellent against Barcelona as well - but this just comes to rarely. In the meantime he's full of performances like yesterday: half-heated, too many mistakes, too little effort and lacking quality (in the final pass, precision and shooting ability).

In this system, and with this team, he's absolute king. No one can do what he's doing, so I expect more.

Pirlo? He made a total of 16 assists last season. In 06/07 he made 10 assists with us, next season it was 11, and the following 6. But it was a team that had other sources of scoring and assisting goals. Get Pirlo into this team, and I'm sure he'd make more then 10 assists per season.

And that's what I mean. Montolivo is good, he's the best we have right now. I'm just not enchanted with the man, IMO he leaves too much to be desired for.

He played excellent in a lot of games last season, not just Barca. That's why he earned the armband, with merit. I don't see yesterday's game as half hearted, it was mostly a bad performance not due to desire or lack-there-of but due to form and fitness levels which are still a bit off.

Pirlo at Juve is a different entity to what Pirlo at Milan was. He plays a totally different game at Juve.

What Monto does is similar to what Pirlo used to do with us, i.e his game is more about pulling strings and controlling the tempo rather than being the final assist man. And no matter who you have around you, one player simply cannot do both. That's why we need a proper trequartista because no matter what Monto does it still won't be enough. Also, Pirlo took all the corners and free-kicks when he was here, while Monto doesn't so that does skew the assist ratio a bit
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