Hey, where's me in this conversation? If I were playing against Messi as a defender, I'd wager my own death if he went past me and scored. And to think the absolute jokers the drugged one plays against week in week out.

Wow... I'm speechless over what I'm reading here.

Truly... I'm speechless every time I read a newspaper after a FIFA Ballon d'Or ceremony. My heart almost sank when I took a look at this magazine cover. I mean the standards have really fallen or what.

Well look at it this way. You and I think Ronaldo is better, but we conceed that it's close. Others say Messi is miles ahead of Ronaldo and it's a joke they're even compared. Yeah, and we're the ones who're being silly.

Then you most probably haven't watched the CL in the last 5-6 years. C'mon, one thing is not to like him (absolutely understandable, I dislike Ronaldo myself), other thing is to speak BS.


Well, you have that on bosth sides of the argument, look at acid post and I remember him comparing Messi to Pastore not that long ago. I personally, don't think one of them is miles ahead, and I agree it's close, though I prefer Messi and think he's better.

Nah, I was talking about the kiddie meal defenders of the Spanish league. CL is another thing, but even there quality stoppers have stopped him in the tracks. But minor league standards in La Liga is, no matter how you look at it, a joke. Same for CRON though, if you know what I mean.


Messi to Pastore. My memory is quite okay, any more hints when or in what context I did that?

I have a lot of respect for you, acid, and reading this is just... not like you. Like Jack said, it's one thing disliking him, and it's another to speak BS.

Still, he has 56 goals in 74 games in CL, that's an amazing record no matter how you look at it, and CL top scorer in the last 4 years (39 goals in 40 games during those 4 years). Spanish league is another thing, but even there not everybody can score 50 goals in 37 games in one season (actually, no one did it in any league ever).


I remember that being mentioned by you one of the arguments about this. I'll serach for it.

Dude, Spanish league has the worst quality of defenders in all the major European leagues. Major as in English, Italian and German leagues. La Liga is showboating and fancy tricks, which is okay, but it just means the focus shifts from defense to attack in ways that means a dip in defending.

The only thing stopping Real from greatness is bad defense. Even Barcelona have a shaky one now.


Awesome. But you know I've never been much of a stats man. Love them to bits, but they rarely count for me when it comes to greatness. Heroes in almost all sports, for me, boil down to personal bits not numbers. But I can't disagree with what you said above.


Sure, please do. It got me intrigued, I do remember most everything I post, even years old stuff. But this one I just can't seem to recall. Pastore and Messi in one sentences, from me, interesting.

http://www.milanfan.com/forums/index.php?s...mp;#entry328082

Done in by Pastore, of all people. Thank you for digging it up. And well, I've never been too much impressed by Messi in Argentinean colors, though apparently he was somewhat unlucky (in that whatever he tried was stopped) in the last tournament I saw him in, the 2010 World Cup.

Regardless, my point still stands, I'm not all too keen on having greatness shoved up by the media (and in some ways fans). Particularly this "Greatest of All Time" thingy that seemed to pop up a few years back and still carries. Call me a saint or a sinner, but there have been a whole lot of greats before him that can lay claim to the title.

As there will be after Messi I am sure. But I guess media people have to eat. Particularly know-it-all pundits.

Two words: Champions League. End of story.



So stats don't count for you, but have you ever seen him play? The guy's class is out of this world. He's one of those players that come once every few generations. Is he the best of all time? I can't say, cause I haven't been there when Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, Platini etc. were active. But he's by far the best in the world right now, and I don't need to think twice about it.

Well I'm with Messi, I think he's great because of the players around him. Glad he sees it the way I do.

Well this is rarely "Champions" League these days. But I get where you are coming from.


I've seen him play, and but not as much as the defenders who try and stop him. As a fan of the pure art of defending and having watched great defenders prowl the pitch, even I don't have to think twice how much of a leeway the guy gets. Sadly, defending is a dying art, just see how Nesta pocketed him the last time they met.

And I know the other greats inside out, having watched full matches, read about them, as well as footballing documentaries and everything. And really, in terms of pure and sheer talent a fair few of the Brazil '82 team, for me, were better than this guy. You can say he is the best in the world right now, and I won't disagree.

My only gripe is when people (fans and media) bring up the "All Time" shtick. Help your country to a World Cup, then we will talk. Maybe. Because I don't really like Maradona, but he was downright instrumental in those wins.

I don't think it's necessary to win to be the best, because 1 player can't win. But when you see what Ronaldo has done with a very 2nd rate country and you see the players Leo has around him at International level, you'd have thought they'd have won something by now. He's not even scored a competition goal since 2007 which is ridiculous.

True, true. The only reason I brought winning the Cup for Messi was because of the people he has around him in the Argentinean NT. Portugal at their best are above average, save for golden players like Rui Costa and Figo.

You're looking too much in the past. Like I said, I'm not comparing Messi to champions of previous generations. I'm just saying he's the best of the best now. Do you disagree?



Clinging onto NT statistics, typical Kurt. Club football is what really counts. What you achieve with your NT is complimentary. Not to mention tournaments come once in a blue moon. Are you saying Messi is poor because he didn't score/played bad in 2012's Coppa America, a mediocre tournament nobody really cares about? He was the best player of an awful Argentina in 2010. It's not his fault Argentina have been appalling in the last few years. He's a phenomenal footballer, but he can't win games by himself. No-one can.

I'm not sure where I've said anything to the contrary!

You always bring up the topic of how Messi is not the same player with Argentina, and you always make that the basis of how Ronaldo is better because he's achieved more with Portugal. I didn't imply that you claimed the contrary of what I wrote in my previous post, but the point remains. No need to quote single sentences cause it's meaningless.

In my opinion Messi's performances aren't as good with Argentina as they are with Barcelona, which to me suggests he benefits from superior players at club level. Ronaldo is basically the same player wherever. It's nothing to do with what they've acheived, it's my opinion of how they perform within those teams. You might think Messi is just as good with Argentina, he isn't to me.

That's not true. CR is better with Portugal than Messi is for Argentina but he's not as good as he is with RM or was with ManU.

By the way, this notion that Messi benefits from Barcelona's other great players is of course true but I think it's given too much weight cause if those other players could help their teammates that much Messi would not be the only constant Barcelona goal scorer all these years.

He's been top scorer since he was the focal point. Before that Eto'o was the focal point and top scorer and Messi was wide. It's not all too surprising as to why. They scored more as a team with Eto'o top scorer than most their years with Messi as top scorer. I think they had more players capable of scoring back then. Nowadays who would you call a serious goal threat? Alexis? Pedro? Fabregas? Villa? They're okay scorers, nothing more. Not saying he's bad at all, far from it. I just think Ronaldo is the better overall player.

Messi was 16/17/18

In 2008/09? He was 22 when Eto'o left.

As I said in the post above, there is little room for disagreement. But as also said above, when it comes to All Time thingies, one has to look into the past. I am aware some of the finest players of this generation are still not finished with their career, but from what I see, they just don't hold up against legends from the past.

Kaka was the last one in my opinion who had that magic aura for a brief few seasons. Then darkness!

Yeah I'm talking about the post-Eto'o era. The players you mention there have not been able to take advantage of their teammates' quality as Messi has. My point is, it's not like Messi is just a very good player that looks as good as he does because of his teammates cause everyone would do that. He gets help obviously but what he does with it is still extraordinary. To me Messi is better but I don't think they are so far apart anyway.

By who - the few who suggest this? The Messi fanboys ignore it all the time and just come up with 'well, he doesn't have to leave one of the supposed greatest teams ever if he doesn't want to, he would do it in any league anyway because Ronaldo did it and that logic couldn't be flawed, at all, there, I told you'.

Yet anyone mentions the NT and it's, trust 'insert name here' to bring this up, you think he's bad because he doesn't really perform for Argentina, even though it's the only other side anyone has seen Messi play for other than Barca.

You can debate all you like about Ronaldo v Messi, but the shear notion that people are passing across as fact that Messi is guaranteed to be as good or better than Ronaldo in England simply because he was is

Before this gets span, I've never guaranteed Messi would be crap in another league, I would like to see him play for another club/league before I harp on about being the greatest ever. If we're talking solely La Liga I agree Messi probably has the edge (I'd say Barca as a whole are better and obviously that's down to Messi too, but take Lionel/CR7 out of each team I'd still say Barca have the edge) but for me Ronaldo comes back in the equation overall because of playing in multiple countries, and doing it to a crazy level in both leagues.

Think I can back down and agree it's those 2 and then the rest by a mile, but I can't agree it's Messi, then a mile, then Ronaldo, then a mile, then others - not at all, not until I see Messi go to another team and bang in 30/40 goals a year too.

Close space = Messi ineffective. His lack of ability to hit it from range and cause trouble is yet another edege CR7 has. He'd have hit rockets and caused havok with the rebounds that the keeper couldn't hold all day tonight.

I can't agree it's a mile between them either. It's very close.


I think Messi is better than CR in closed spaces cause he can dribble through them. He did not show up tonight. But CR needs more space than Messi to operate I think.

Agreed. But that's not what I'm saying. Do you think a Madrid side with Ronaldo would ever have so few attempts? We played our 18 yard box tonight, Ronaldo would've hit them from 30/35 yards.

There's still another game to play. why do you like so much to jump at conclusions?

Urgh, I'm pretty sure this debate isn't based on last night, seeing as it got re-initiated a good few days ago

Ah yeah I get what you're saying now. Most probably CR would have managed to take at least one of those shots, it is a weapon that Messi does not possess.

Even if it was, to say it's jumping to a conclusion early is silly. Both players have 400+ games left in their career, so surely it'd be too early to say anything about either of them on that logic.

Good game from Kaka' tonight in what was basically a Madrid reserves team. Scored a nice goal from outside the box, then created the winner with a superb ball into Ronaldo (he played it to Higuain for a tap-in).

Higuain's goal was his 100th La Liga goal, in his 179th game. Not bad.

Ha, came here to say just this, Kurt. Kaka really turned it up in this match!

Only his fourth league start of the season. I wonder how much he earns if you calculate his salary per games he played and compare it to other players.

Don't know about that but this was his first league goal for Madrid this season. That's worth like what 8-10 million if he does not score another one. And that too without taxes. Kaka is noway near the player of old, but Mourinho too can be more than handful sometimes.

Oh god... these la liga teams and their defending.... with our game with them still fresh in my mind, I can see the different between Barca vs good defense and Barca vs non-existent defense better now.

Laughable defending from Sevilla on both goals.

Ah, feels great to find out you finally see the light, Zed.D. Almost all of Pato's league goal for Milan were better than what Messi, and Cristiano pull off in the Spanish league, mainly because of the level of defending. That is why in terms of league performance I still rate Maradona above Pele, due to his time in Serie A.

Overall I still think Pele was a bigger player, but Maradona wasn't too far behind. But point of the matter is defending standards in most professional leagues are terribly down from the 90s and early 2000s.

Pele??

Aye, Pele. You really haven't watched much vintage football, have you, man? I've watched things starting from the 40s and 50s, and well let's just say those were joyous, all-or-nothing, pure games of football. Not this thing what we call sports these days, with managers deciding the outcome of the game from the word go.

I've watched enough to have an opinion.

Well, that then, I can respect.

Yeah, too bad Pato will never become the players Messi and Ronaldo are.

Well, I'm not the one to say never, but can't disagree there if I tried. His finishing is better than both, but he lacks in most other departments, whether it is stringing a good pass together, a through ball, creativity, vision, heck, his fragile body meant that this season he could not even dribble like he did a few years back.

I probably wouldn't put Pele in the top 100. Not his fault he played at a time where International football was a joke and there was only about 10 nations who were half decent, it is his fault that he never went to Europe though. Probably a good thing, even a 3rd division Villa beat a Santon with Pele in the team!

I think it's all relative anyway. Would Pele at his peak even be any good in todays game? Defending has come on an incredible amount even from the 90s and 80s, so I just don't think he'd be all that. Players today are far superior than previous generations, which is why it's so hard to compare.

I meant his injuries.

See the light? my opinions of Messi hasn't changed. sure, he finds it easier in La Liga, but it's not like all Serie A teams can defend like Milan did against Barca. it's just that the number, as you always say, are inflated when you're a striker in La Liga. Messi would probably score an average of 20-25 goals each season in Serie A.

As for Pele... I haven't watched him a lot, but I've watched enough 60's and 70's football and it looked much simpler compared to what it was from late 80's onwards. I think Maradona could equally shine if he played today, but Pele? not sure. but doesn't matter, all you have to do is to be the best in your time. that's why there's still people who rate Pele (like my father), because they remember watching him being the best in his time.