Well, yes, of course, Pippo is a bonus. I'm on the same line with that. Never said he should be considered as a starter, did I? Just that it's not ours to decided who should retire and who not.

problem is with boriello always injured he's basically 3rd in line...

he really should be our 5th option up front cuz yyou can always count on an injury

Of course I don't like it when my personal favourites get critices harshly, and of course I try to defen said players, but I don't act offended or self ritous in the matter.

It's not like these people are personally bashing me. All I'm saying is let's have some consistancy when it comes to accusing people of being offensive and ungrateful when at the end of the day we're all humans here and we all do it from time to time


Exactly. We're all here expressing our oppinions, no one on here, I'm sure is going to tel these players to retire, because at the end of the day it's the player's choice to decide when to hang up his boots, but with that being said, it's also me and others here expressing their own personal oppinion and I don't think that it's right for some to deem it offensive if my personall oppinion on the matter is that Pippo should retire this summer. I don't think that's being offensive and disrespectful in anyway, shape or form


Exactly, yes it's the management's fault that these players are being considered as such but at the end of the day most people only see the player as someone that is holding the team back instead of looking at the bigger picture


Galliani and co certainly aren't and at the end of the day their decisions are what makes and breaks this club. I personally have no problem with keeping these players, I wouldn't even complain if they were 60 years old and in wheel chairs, it's not like I'm paying their wages out of my own pockets. But what really bothers me is that Galliani sees them as a major part of this team when it comes time to making transfer decisions. Look at the state our defence is in because of this very same mantelity

Fair enough, han, and I agree that we are none of us perfect. Don't mind criticism as long as there are reasons for criticism. Just hope I don't have reason to cite your pose if/when I again offer criticism of a player others like (ie, Kaka or Pato etc).

If you talk about me you can say that in an explicit way. You want me to be consistent? You have no proof to back this story up so let it be bro


Interesting, the quotation you put above this satement doesn't mention the management, it mentions the bad luck we had with Bori.


Which can be concluded from...?


I don't understand what you want? You think Pippo is blocking us or is a excuse of not purchasing a new attacker?
I mean this season we've signed like 6-7 new players at least, so I don't see a problem there?

The new Pippo and Sheva
Especially if Paloschi continues to celebrate his goals the way he does.

The problem is not this season... we're all still left with a bitter taste after failing to finish 4h in the league in order to qualify for the Champions League and that's the result of not acting on time. Everyone knew we had problems, don't tell me you believe we were the best team in Europe because we won the Champions League...

We made great signings in the summer and in the January transfer window too. But there are still quite a few aged player in the squad and it'd be sad to see us repeat the same mistakes for a third time (the first being 15 years back).

Of course Milan will get back on track maybe even this season but did we really had to go through this? It's certainly not a disaster but when you see it coming (don't tell me you did not), it's sad to know you did not do much to avoid it. That is the feeling that I believe is coming out now from some fans.

I agree with 90% you said. But honestly, I think we had to go through it. I think it's normal, even positive in some ways, if it does not repeat soon. To paraphrase the Joker: I've been dead once already. It's very liberating. You should think of it as, uh... therapy.

I get what you're saying, I don't think that team had ran it's course though... we still have a big part of the core of that team... anyway maybe it had to happen... the important thing is, we stayed united through it all!

One word: overmelodramatization!

@ han

Save your energy, mate. Pippo has already renewed. there's no way he's going to retire in the summer.

ain't seen nothing yet

You got that right. Wait till they offer Paolo an extension. Do you think, we can have a Davis cup kind of setup. The non-playing captain thingie?

No proof to back up the story? This isn't a story, I've read posts where you yourself didn't find it all that offensive when people were crticising certain players, yet when it's suddenly turned on players that you personally like it's suddenly a crime for people to criticise them. Case in point the Pippo should retire comment that were made.

That's the consistancy I'm asking for. I'm not saying don't defend players, I'm saying let's not create controversy when it's a personal favourite yet and act all offended when we do the same thing to other players in other threads.



I was talking about this part of the post, from that comments I made I would have thought that you would reach that conclusion.

The Boriello situation is something that I do not wish to get into. I personally didn;t want us to buy him again, not just for sporting reason but because of the economical part of the deal mostly. I personally though that he would never be able to handle playing for Milan and scoring a lot, and even though he started well I'm still not sure how he will turn out. Him being injured for more then 3/4 of the season is something that no one could have predicted.


Uh last time I checked Galliani makes the decisions, a few bad moves and we're in deep sh!t also known as the UEFA Cup.


It's not just Pippo!!!

And it's not just this season, how long has thie been going on for? Having these older players which mostly are kept because of sentimentle reason but yet not making neccissary transfers to cover for these older players' short comings (injuries, lack of form, etc)

The only reason we made so many transfers last season was because not making the CL finally opened one of Galliani's eyes, and he finally admitted that we had some problems. With that being said, how many of the players that we brought in are for our long term success? Non, Boriello is the youngest one we brought in and he's already 36 years old and now apparently very injury prone... (Did not count the Uru guys because I don't count them as part of the team atm, since they are not played)


It's not about Pippo, it's about how people react when certain players are mentioned. I just find it ridiculous that people here get on other posters' backs for criticising players when they do the same thing.

I agree that the players should be treated with relative fairness, han. What I mean by that is that if Fishdoll were to be highly critical of Seedorf's performance in one game, then Pola should be able to be equally critical of Kaka's performance in another. If we can criticize one, we should be able to criticize all. (Pointing this one out again because of the **** I took when I dared to criticize Kaka earlier in the season when he was playing poorly - I was told that he is above criticism. If he is, then they ALL are.)

I agree.

Personally I was one that was defending Kaka, but I never said that he was above criticism, just that if he's a bit off form he deserves some time after having to carry the team on his own for so long.

But I dod acknowledge that he was playing badly more then one during that time. But with all that, I never acted offended or took the crititcism directed towards him as an offence to the player or that he was being treated like garbage by ungrateful fans

I'm usually on your side, but you kind did.

As long as everybody is treated with mutual respect, I don't see the harm in these differences in opinion. It's when one starts acting self-righteous and overbearing that this trouble starts and we end up with a war of words. Just know that whatever you know to be true, is for you and those who share that with you. And you can't change ones opinion by force. No matter how superior your opinion and philosophy is compared to that person. This will save you a ton of energy. Wasted energy on a football fan site.

I can quote all my posts regarding the Kaka issue and yes I defended him, like I actually admitted to Tennie, but I didn't act offended by it, simply because it's not my place to be offended by one's personal thoughts on a player's performances, no matter how I feel about said player. Tennie (and others) simple mentioned that Kaka was playiing badly and should be treated as we would treat the other players, and I was pointing out that since Kaka has been so over worked and overly depended on, we shouldn't just jump on him because he's not at his best and a bit off form. But I never denied that he was playing badly, I acknowledged it, and said that 'yes, he should be playing better'

And I agree with you completely, I just don't like being immediately jumped on if I speak my mind about certain players. Especially when there are double standards involved

Neither do I, han. And I DID feel jumped on (not just by you) when I criticized Kaka. Especially when justifications like 'we've depended on him for so long, give him a break' are okay for him but excuses like 'he scored two in the CL final' aren't for Pippo or 'he marked Zlatan out of the game so he's not past it at all' aren't for Maldini. It seemed to me as if there was a definite double standard in place, whereby it's okay to criticize some players but not okay to criticize others - or if one does, to give every possible justification for their poor performance. If one player's poor performance can be excused away, they all can.

Link please

You see, I agree with you, and if I did something wrong it wasn't meant to be disrespectfull. But posts that involved pure and simple statements that are offensive or disrespectfull to Milan players do offend me too. And then I ask myself what's the point in following a Milan fan forum in which I'm more ashamed then proud to say I love Fillipo Inzaghi or Gianluca Zamborotta?

You want me to sift through all your posts to give you evidence?!!

All I'm saying is that I remembered instances where you had no problem going along with other posters (sometimes including myself - athough we tend to disagree a lot ) when player A is being criticised. Yet you jump on people that criticise players that you like.

I'm all in favour of defending players when they are being criticised I even do it myself. But let's not get overly dramatic when it hits close to home

And let's not get overly defensive when our favorites are criticized either, lest we be guilty of double standards when we turn around and beat up on players we dislike.

Why would anyone shame you on supporting a certain player? I wouldn't even judge you if you were Zlatan Ibrahimovic's biggest fan, let alone one of our own.

I'm just pointing out the fact that you tend to jump on people who criticise players. Yes sometimes people are in the heat of the moment (including myself) especially after we lose games and say things a bit too harshly but that is still not a reason to shame people for thinking the way they do.

Am I a Pippo fan? Yes, maybe not as much as you are but I still am a fan. But do I think that he should retire come this summer? Yes. I've already stated my reasons as to why I feel this way and I don't think that I should be jumped for having this particular oppinion on the subject. This is basically what I've been trying to point out for the last 2 days.

Han, I already stated that I at least felt like you jumped on me when I criticized Kaka. I certainly feel that more than a couple of people have been harsher to me than perhaps they could've been when I've been critical of Gourcuff and his possible return. At this point, I'm afraid to say anything negative about either player or to say nice things about players I do like (people like Pippo and Zambrotta and Seedorf and Favster) because, well, I'll get slammed by their critics for daring to say something positive.

So, you see, it cuts both ways. None of us are innocent in this. Perhaps we should all remember that there are real people posting their comments and at least make an attempt be considerate of others.

Still overmelodramatizing!

But you have admitted in the past the you don't like these players, not just for their football because of their personalities. I personally don;t care what a player is like off the field and as long as he's performing well for Milan he can do whatever he wants, it's his life.

You yourself have said some pretty harsh things regarding Gourcuff, some that directly relate to his character, yet you don't like it when people criticise Pippo because he's playing badly, or Favalli because he makes mistakes. I personally look only at player performances when I make judgments. Your oppinion on Yoann is very clear to me, you don't want him back at Milan even if him coming back could be for the good of the team if he continues to perform well.

And I don;t think that my reaction to your Kaka comments were me jumping on you, but if you feel that way I appologize for making you feel that way.

Regarding Pippo, Zambro, Seedorf and Favalli, I personally always praise them when they play well, like I praise every other player on the team, and like everyone else does, you can even look through one of the UEFA Cup games where Emerson played well and I even praised him, but I also criticise these players like I criticise all the others when they don;t play well, and yes I have criticised Kaka also in the past, to me the only player above criticism on our team is Paolo. Simply because he's Paolo. And I don't care if this makes me a hypocrit but I would defend Paolo even if he layed down on the field in a match and did nothing.

Just for the record, I agree with almost everything han has been saying.

Thank you!

The first statement quoted above is unfairly harsh, I think. You're making a negative judgment on what you THINK is my opinion and what you THINK might happen IF he comes back. Lots of juggmentalism and a lot of hypotheticals there. The subtext I read is 'you're an idiot. you hate this player so much that you don't want him back at any cost'. And that is precisely why I am no longer willing to get involved in any discussion of Gourcuff (or for that matter ancelotti) because people seem to be rushing to unduly harsh judgment about my opinion because - gosh - it disagrees with theirs.

As for the second statement, apology accepted. But that's how you did come across.

What are you fighting for? Nesta will be training with the team next week!!

Dunno, dst. I guess I was being silly, thinking I had a right to an opinion without being condemned and ridiculed for it.

And yes, the news about Nesta is very good.

You know, this fight isn't neccassary at all.

The point is, either you are not reading my post or you're interpretation of them is false. I don't know.
Anyway, I never ever said people are not allowed to criticise players. I just said that they shouldn't be rude, disrespectfull and vicious.

It is true, I did agree with you on some, points. Some years ago we agree on quite a few things. But I never ever agree with posts like:









I never supported such words, nor was I ever disrespectfull to any AC Milan player in that way. Maybe I was harsh on Kaladze or Senderos, for that I'm sorry if someone got angry.

And now please let's conclude this debate in saying we have a different image of the word "criticism" in our vocabulary and we agree to disagree on that one.

On the Gourcuff issue, I simply came to that conclusion by reading what you personally thought of him more then once, I admire that you are honest about how you feel about him, but I don't think that it should cloud our judgments on what type of player he is.


Agreed

Regarding the quotes you showed, I can assure you that I would never wirte such things, especially about Paolo. I agree with you when it comes to posts like those. Even though who wrote them will probably say they're a heato of the moment thing, those are disrespectful comments to make, especially about Paolo. Thinking that a player should retire though, imo does not fall under the same category as those quotes you showed

Han, you're doing it again. You 'admire my honesty' but don't think my opinion should cloud my judgment on what sort of player he is? What if my opinion is that he's good in Ligue 1 but not good in Serie A? I'm not allowed to say that because it's 'biased'. Yet you can call for Pippo's retirement because he has a bad game. Double standards seem to still be applying unless the situation is that I am not permitted to have an opinion unless it agrees with yours.

It's not just one bad game from Pippo though is it? It's the injuries, bad form, all the instincts he used to have seemingly started to abbandon him more as time wears on. And I'm not saying your oppinion is wrong, I'm sure there are many on here who would agree with you and disagree with me on the issue. My entire issue with this whole Pippo thing is that I was immediotely jumped on when I said it and accused of being disrespectful.

As for Yoann, you have a point that he might only be good in France, we will probably never find out. But again you've always said that you don't like the player, and gave some colorful reasons as to why you don't like him, and I know that I'm probably letting this whole thing be the main focal point of my reasoning towards your position regarding Yoann.

Han, you're conveniently forgetting the many times you've jumped on others for trying to say positive things about ancelotti, about pippo, about...someone you don't like. And the many times that others have jumped on the pippo fans, the ancelotti fans, the zambrotta fans, etc. the only people one can safely be a fan of are pato, kaka, maldini and maybe nesta.

And again...you're showing contempt for my opinion and assuming yours is 100% correct. (I'm not saying mine is, but I'm tired of the fighting and the constant attacks for daring to step outside the milanfan box).

So it would seem that your reasoning is valid and mine is not. If that's what you think, fine with me. I'm done with the venom on this place.

If you think me by that, I responded to the direct "Pippo retire" post, and that I belive wasn't your's.


Tennie stated the same reasons Gourcuff didn't impress that I did. I still belive stealing millimeters from corner kicks is below Milan level (it's worse then the dives Pippo or Gila made IMO, just to avoid a paralel). His moves were not usefull, his touch was good but always a trick to much. Does "small" signs signalled me that he's mentally not ready to play with Milan and on Milan level (yes, even on the dreadfull/last season level). I never said he's bad or he's a mistake, and I think Tennie also didn't. I just responded to the sudden rise of Gourcuff's popularity and put a couple of question marks. That's all, and that's all Tennie made.

Excuse me, what is stealing millimeters from a corner kick?

When he took corners for Milan, zeddie, Gourcuff would place the ball outside the little corner area, clearly visible on telly.

I totally fail to see how the former is worse personally. By doing that you only place the ball in a place more suitable to you and don't really earn anything from it while the ref and linesman have all the time in the world to spot it and make you place the ball inside the little area. By diving you cheat and can earn a lot while disrespecting your opponents and football itself... anyway...

Ah...

But it's not illegal, is it? many players do that from time to time. I wonder how that's worse than diving...



+1

I don't know why everything weirdly changes when Yoann is involved! placing the ball a few centimeters outside the corner area becomes worse than diving...

It's illegal.

And, well, surely it can't be all bad because the sainted Gourcuff does it. whereas the evil inzaghi is the one who dives so clearly that's worse.

Ah, there you go again...

Jumped on people for saying positive things about Zambro, Pippo and Carlo? I only speak negatively of certain people after it's deserved, bad game, bad tactics etc.

I don't think it's jumping on people when I disagree with someone regarding a player. I don't understand what you mean when you say, 'someone says positive things about player A and player B' Is it positive things in general or positive things after a performance. Becuase when it's in the general sense of it I usally agree with people who are pointing out the positives because I'm looking at the whole picture instead of an isolated game. But when it's after a performance and the player in question played badly yes I usually criticise them, and yes sometimes I come off harsh, but it's only because I'm p!ssed off about losing points, everyone does it.


It was mine and someone else (don't remeber who said it) that agreed on the Pippo should retire thing.

I'm going to reply to your Gourcuff post by quoting dst

Couldnt't have said it better myself...

You say you're not biased, yet it's ok for Pippo and Gila to dive but it's not ok for Yoann to place the ball a few centimeters out of the angle? Sorry but I don't understand the logic in this...


And diving is ok? Imo it's a lot worse then placing the ball a few centimeters out of the angle. Placing the ball there doesn't help the player gain advantage by doing it, yet diving on the other hand is blatant cheating that not only gives the player a bad name but also the club he's playing for, let's not forget the fiascos that happened in Glasgow, both with Gila and Dida

We need Pippo next year in CL!

You're doing it again han. You're quoting me on things I never said. Did I say it's ok to dive? Where?
I said "it's worse", and if "it's worse" is a comparative of the word okay, then I admit my english failed me.

I agree, stealing isn't as bad as making a dive. But what matters that it's very rare to see such things in professional football. Did Bojan do it? Messi? Pato? For me, it was a sign something's wrong. On the other hand, if Gourcuff would have dived I wouldn't make a big story out of it cause, well, every attacker dived once in his life. The same cannot be said for about 5 corner kicks.

To me saying it's worse that he did something like steel 5 centimeters off a corner then diving is like you're brushing off the fact that Pippo dives an everage of 20 times in every match and saying it's not a big deal, yet something like Gourcuff not taking the corner like he's supposed to is a big crime.

And I don't think that it reflects his mental strength, maybe he's more comfortable taking the corner from there rather then having it placed on the angle. A lot of players do it, I've seen it and personally don't think much of it, since there is no gain of doing it, at least I don't think so, you don't put in a better corner by moving the ball a bit forward. On the other hand diving is something that turns me off, no matter who I see doing it. I even criticise for Kaka for doing it occasionally, and other players who I know are better then that and don't need to do it.

After reading posts I changed my mind and accepted that saying stealing is worse then making a dive doesn't make sense. I know you're confused zd, after all it's not that often that someone here accepts his mistake, or god for sake changes his opinion after reading other posts.

I have nothing to talk about Gourcuff any more. Han your post is correct and it could be, but your opinion is a biased as mine and Tennies and the rest.
I'll puke next time I see the word bias cause no one here understands it. We attack people for being biased, but respect or let rude insults, offensive words or swearing go just like that. That's what I call double-standards. And yes, with my tone and behaviour I accepted being part of it. But at least I can admit it and not act like I'm above all that.