[han2503]

A meaningless third place playoff v Spurs in a friendly?

Odd one to judge with. Especially as you refuse to judge against Inter in a match which had arguably infinitely more meaning.

I'm not saying it's enough to make a final judgement, and it is a meaningless game at the end of it, just like the Bayern, Real and Inter games also were.

Also, how many times can I say that we were playing the Inter Primavera in the ICC...

But if we struggle as much as we did yesterday against Spurs, then sure, we can start to worry a bit more, still ultimately a meaningless friendly as they've all been. But I'm expecting a reaction considering how Miha reacted during the match, even if it really ultimately means nothing to us

Gazzetta has Zapata as MOM for us and Honda as flop.

Did they actually watch? Zapata was pretty awful if you ask me. A couple of good blocks and tackles but the fact that he repeatedly puts himself and team mates under pressure due to some awful decision making is why I don't rate him.

De Jong was our MoM for me. Honda was bad, but I guess he caught the eye more because he was working hard to try to get on the ball (even if he failed every time he did get it). Bona and Bertolacci were worse imo as they MIA throughout their time on the pitch

[Danny]

Did they actually watch? Zapata was pretty awful if you ask me.

If I'm biased against Mexes but can at least credit him with good play, your bias against Zapata is actually blinding you and stopping you seeing what he's actually doing.

He was widely regarded as our best player last night, and not just by Gazzetta.

[Danny]

De Jong was our MoM for me.

He did nothing. Like everyone else spent more time giving away the ball and making some awful fouls than doing anything productive.

[han2503]

If I'm biased against Mexes but can at least credit him with good play, your bias against Zapata is actually blinding you and stopping you seeing what he's actually doing.

He was widely regarded as our best player last night, and not just by Gazzetta.

Don't get were you get my bias towards Zapata, as I said, I simply do not rate him because of his recklessness and stupid/questionable decision making which simply negates all the other good things he's capable of doing

I'm personally lenient about many things when I'm trying to give a player a chance, but being a liability is something I personally think is the end of my limits tbh. I can understand a player being limited and not being particularly good in one area or another. But being the guy who puts his team mates under pressure because of poor decision making in what is supposed to be elementary level basics of football is a major pet peeve for me. If he's not capable of playing out just keep things simple. No need to try and dribble through 3 or 4 players (like he actually did yesterday for some reason which I cannot understand), or try to make a more complicated pass forward when your CB partner is open right next to you.

Like I said, I think he had good moments, but his idiotic ones for me erase most of the good he does as just those instances could easily end up costing us a lot. Look at Alex yesterday, passing right into the opposing player. Bayern get possession back, Lewandowski gets it and bang, they score.

[han2503]

He did nothing. Like everyone else spent more time giving away the ball and making some awful fouls than doing anything productive.

Diasgree, he was the only mid who actually showed up. Defenders all did the best they could, Bayern had loads of chances and those came at times because our back 4 was continually caught in no man's land.

[Danny]

Don't get were you get my bias towards Zapata, as I said, I simply do not rate him because of his recklessness and stupid/questionable decision making which simply negates all the other good things he's capable of doing

I'm personally lenient about many things when I'm trying to give a player a chance, but being a liability is something I personally think is the end of my limits tbh. I can understand a player being limited and not being particularly good in one area or another. But being the guy who puts his team mates under pressure because of poor decision making in what is supposed to be elementary level basics of football is a major pet peeve for me. If he's not capable of playing out just keep things simple. No need to try and dribble through 3 or 4 players (like he actually did yesterday for some reason which I cannot understand), or try to make a more complicated pass forward when your CB partner is open right next to you.

Like I said, I think he had good moments, but his idiotic ones for me erase most of the good he does as just those instances could easily end up costing us a lot. Look at Alex yesterday, passing right into the opposing player. Bayern get possession back, Lewandowski gets it and bang, they score.

So you forgive Mexes for getting 400 red cards but you won't forgive Zaps for his 'moments'?

And I find it slightly odd that you won't forgive liabilities yet will forgive Mexes when he's one.

[han2503]

So you forgive Mexes for getting 400 red cards but you won't forgive Zaps for his 'moments'?

And I find it slightly odd that you won't forgive liabilities yet will forgive Mexes when he's one.

I don't think that Mexes even has 10 red cards during his entire Milan career so far. I know you're exaggerating to make a point, but there is a difference here. Zapata does this in almost each game he plays. Just because his blunder doesn't get punished so it is forgotten quickly, doesn't make this very big flaw in his game disappear. Yesterday his 2 mistakes weren't punished, so it's all sunshine and rainbows for you and maybe even to some journalists, but it isn't for me. Does that make me biased towards him? I don't think so, I just don't tolerate certain types of mistakes which I think pro players shouldn't even make on rare occasions let alone with the consistency that Zapata does.

Mexes is different, sure he loses his cool once or twice in a season. But his issues are simply not related to the way he plays. Do I get p!ssed off when he's sent off? Sure, and do I want him to eliminate that aspect from his game? Of course! But as a player Mexes is simply superior to Zapata in each way and this does counter the fact that he can be a loose canon at times.

There are many players who have the same problem as Mexes as well, even great ones (we experienced this most recently with Zlatan, Balo, heck even Menez has a red card in him considering all the diving and petulance, and others in the past as well like Rino with his temper and Ambro with his rash tackles).

My point is, it's not the same thing. Zapata could easily eliminate this major flaw from his game and he simply never learns

[Danny]

I don't think that Mexes even has 10 red cards during his entire Milan career so far. I know you're exaggerating to make a point, but there is a difference here. Zapata does this in almost each game he plays. Just because his blunder doesn't get punished so it is forgotten quickly, doesn't make this very big flaw in his game disappear. Yesterday his 2 mistakes weren't punished, so it's all sunshine and rainbows for you and maybe even to some journalists, but it isn't for me. Does that make me biased towards him? I don't think so, I just don't tolerate certain types of mistakes which I think pro players shouldn't even make on rare occasions let alone with the consistency that Zapata does.

Mexes is different, sure he loses his cool once or twice in a season. But his issues are simply not related to the way he plays. Do I get p!ssed off when he's sent off? Sure, and do I want him to eliminate that aspect from his game? Of course! But as a player Mexes is simply superior to Zapata in each way and this does counter the fact that he can be a loose canon at times.

There are many players who have the same problem as Mexes as well, even great ones (we experienced this most recently with Zlatan, Balo, heck even Menez has a red card in him considering all the diving and petulance, and others in the past as well like Rino with his temper and Ambro with his rash tackles).

My point is, it's not the same thing. Zapata could easily eliminate this major flaw from his game and he simply never learns

So the fact that Zapata was MOTM yesterday for us doesn't counter the fact he made some passing errors, but Mexes' qualities DO counter his tendency to strangle opponents.

In other words, you look at Mexes' positives and use them to negate the negatives, and you look at Zaps' negatives and use them to negate the positives.

Simple.

This post has been edited by Danny: Aug 5 2015, 02:30 PM

[Danny]

PS at least we've moved on from f*ckin' SES (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[X-Offender]

I think you're biased towards Zapata, Han. Sure, he's not reliable and I totally agree with you about that, but when he has a decent showing it's good to acknowledge it. Being unreliable doesn't make him automatically bad in every match. Now, I didn't watch last night's game, but if Zapata was as bad you make him out to be, then he wouldn't have been awarded MOM from anyone.

[Fillipo Simone]

Well, Zapata was his usual if you ask me. Some good, some bad moments. But tipping him as MOM is too far for me. He scored and owngoal and also another owngoal that has been disallowed. He had numerous small good interceptions but his positioning was also off. All in all, no, he wasn't our best player. Neither was De Jong, that's for sure.

[Fillipo Simone]

Come on Filippo! I'm usually the pessimistic one! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

On a serious note, I get what you're saying, but Bayern didn't really let us play at all. We just weren't in it, at all. And I don't agree that we could have played against any other team and the outcome would have been the same. You'll be hard pressed to find anyone close to Bayern's quality in the league, even Juve are no where near that, and no one in Serie plays that kind of high energy pressing game which we simply couldn't cope with.

Like I said, do I think that we still have some major shortcomings in our squad? Yes. Do I think that it's a major problem and is it worrying? Yes, of course. But do I think that it will be exposed to the level that it did against Bayern yesterday? No, not even anywhere close to that.

Just an example of this. I've been saying that I think personnel wise our defence is decent enough for Serie A. We're okay in the FB department for now because the competition in the league is what it is. I think that's it's okay for until we want to mount a serious title challenge/play CL football. But look at how Antonelli for example was getting creamed throughout the first half. The LB who has looked good in Serie A just couldn't cope with the Bayern players running at him. But this is what I mean when I say that we're not going to be facing Bayern each week in the league. And I think the tactical improvements Miha has and will implement over the nothing Pippo provided will already be a major step forward in how we perform in the league. At least this season I'm more confident that we will win against the team we should easily be winning against.

I think the game tonight against Spurs will be a better indicator. If we play anywhere close to like we did yesterday, then I think we can all start pressing the panic buttons

Hopefully.

I'm unable to watch the game myself, but I'll rely on what you guys see and comment. You speak of tactical improvements but again, I say - Milan should never ever play like we did under Allegri and Inzaghi. And last night it was the exact same Milan. The team that has no intention of attacking, no intention of playing or doing anything other then mindless defending and running around the pitch.

[acid911]

Well, Zapata was his usual if you ask me. Some good, some bad moments. But tipping him as MOM is too far for me. He scored and owngoal and also another owngoal that has been disallowed. He had numerous small good interceptions but his positioning was also off. All in all, no, he wasn't our best player. Neither was De Jong, that's for sure.

+∞ (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sleep.gif)

[han2503]

So the fact that Zapata was MOTM yesterday for us doesn't counter the fact he made some passing errors, but Mexes' qualities DO counter his tendency to strangle opponents.

In other words, you look at Mexes' positives and use them to negate the negatives, and you look at Zaps' negatives and use them to negate the positives.

Simple.

Being awarded MoM by a Gazzetta journalist doesn't make it so. It's an opinion of one person, just like it's mine that he wasn't

Like I said, there are some things that for me are a big pet peeve. And Zapata majorly ticks that box, just like Bonera and Muntari used to.

I'm not really as against Zapata as I was with those 2, I don't mind him playing all that much as long as he's next to either Mexes or Alex who can be a guide for him and his questionable positioning. And as you might remember I was 100% against either Muntari or Bonera ever starting. But, his issues are something that really annoys me, and for someone to commit the mistakes that he did, should never be given a MoM award.

I acknowledged first and foremost that he did have some good moments with tackles and interceptions. I like the fact that he's quick and can get back to make the challenge for example. I just don't agree that he's MoM, simply because his mistakes could have just as easily led to another 2 goals conceded for us

Also, you say I'm biased towards Mexes, but I explained why I don't feel his particular issues are the same here. I certainly don't think he's half the liability Zapata is that's for sure.

PS at least we've moved on from f*ckin' SES (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Scored another pretty great goal for Monaco in the CL qualifier (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I think you're biased towards Zapata, Han. Sure, he's not reliable and I totally agree with you about that, but when he has a decent showing it's good to acknowledge it. Being unreliable doesn't make him automatically bad in every match. Now, I didn't watch last night's game, but if Zapata was as bad you make him out to be, then he wouldn't have been awarded MOM from anyone.

I can assure you I'm not, I won't repeat what I said to Danny here as well. I acknowledged that he did have good moments. But for me, when you make the kind of blunders he did yesterday you simply cannot be MoM

I never said that he was overall bad, but his moments of idiocy take a lot away from what are essentially decent to good performances, at least for me. If he has an overall good game but is the player who passed right to the opposition and cost us a goal everyone would label him the flop. Thing is, he has these moments in nearly each game, and when it doesn't get punished for most it's okay to sweep it under the rug, but for me it mares the overall performance as he's continually showing himself to be a goal hazard for us, who we simply cannot rely on

Well, Zapata was his usual if you ask me. Some good, some bad moments. But tipping him as MOM is too far for me. He scored and owngoal and also another owngoal that has been disallowed. He had numerous small good interceptions but his positioning was also off. All in all, no, he wasn't our best player. Neither was De Jong, that's for sure.

Agreed

De Jong for me was the only one who I could really make positive points about without all that much negative. That's why he's MoM for me, more by default.

If De Jong is a big no for you guys then the only guy left for me would be Lopez, who was great as usual and could do nothing about the goals

It actually always makes me laugh when I see Mexes or him passing out of defence, they both have more range than all our mids combined, which is actually pretty sad

Hopefully.

I'm unable to watch the game myself, but I'll rely on what you guys see and comment. You speak of tactical improvements but again, I say - Milan should never ever play like we did under Allegri and Inzaghi. And last night it was the exact same Milan. The team that has no intention of attacking, no intention of playing or doing anything other then mindless defending and running around the pitch.

I think there have been obvious tactical improvements and we showed these in the ICC. For me those games were both basically worthless considering we played Inter's Primavera and a barely interested Real. But it was interesting to see the movements of the players, and I do think that there is an obvious system that Miha is adapting.

Will it always work> Of course not, especially at such an early stage and while we still have very obvious issues in midfield.

Also, I don't think it had anything to do with intentions or lack-there-of. Bayern simply didn't let our players play. They didn't allow them time and space, and when you don't have smart, technical players in midfield and they get that type of high energy pressing, they simply lose the ball and don't know how to play out of tight situations, which is why we spent most of the game chasing shadows. It had nothing to do with intentions imo. Just facing an opponent who is miles ahead of us in terms of quality and also ahead of us in terms of fitness

Like I said, if we struggle to the same degree against Spurs as we did yesterday against Bayern, then that should be a more real cause for concern

[acid911]

I never said that he was overall bad, but his moments of idiocy take a lot away from what are essentially decent to good performances, at least for me. If he has an overall goo game but is the player who passed right to the opposition and cost us a goal everyone would label him the flop. This is, he has these moments in nearly each game, and when it doesn't get punished for most it's okay to sweep it under the rug, but for me it mares the overall performance as he's continually showing himself to be a goal hazard for us, who we simply cannot rely on

Hey, me too! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) Can't stand mediocrity, when it's coupled with regular mistakes. And regular chances.