[Danny]

Italy's options in midfield are threadbare at best, France on the other hand have an abundance of riches. Pogba will always come in ahead of him there anyway.

France...have an embarrassment of riches?! Anywhere?!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Too deadpan, please, no more, my sides can't take it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Wait. You're being serious?

I never regaled Kondogbia as anything just that he's a very good player with high potential to be a great one in the future. And certainly one who has a higher threshold than Bertolacci.

And OMG, please stop mentioning the ICC game as a basis for this argument.

Then OMG stop rolling your eyes (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

It was 2 friendly games that had no meaning, Bertolacci was far from great in either appearance. I'm not basing my opinion of him on that as it's simply not enough. I'm prepared to give him a chance but so far he's shown that he's not the type of player we were really desperate for, which was a creator. However, this in no way means that I think he's rubbish, just not what we really needed

Were we dismissing last year's ICC too? Yes, I think you said the same thing then. 3-0 to Olympiakos, 5-1 to City and 2-0 to Liverpool.

Sure friendlies have no meaning?

[han2503]

I'm baffled. Can you please explain how such a figure is reached? Or is it based on your assumptions?

The 10 to 13m?

Um based on the fact that he only had one decent season at Genoa, and is just a decent player who won't make a huge impact on our midfield?

Strootman was bought for 15m, Vidal for 19m, Pjanic for 10m, Hernanes for 21m, Kovacic for 10m.

All these happened just 2 or 3 years ago, not a decade like Danny said where I was still stuck in. And they're all better than Bertolacci, by a good distance!

[Danny]

Yep, apparently we're not.

I swear if he goes onto become an Italy legend and we didn't sign him I'll be pointing the finger angrily at those whining about the price.

[han2503]

France...have an embarrassment of riches?! Anywhere?!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Too deadpan, please, no more, my sides can't take it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Wait. You're being serious?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Pogba, Matuidi, Cabaye, Gonolans, Kondogbia, Valbuena

vs Italy's Veratti, Marchisio, Parolo, Bertolacci, Soriano, Bonaventura


Yeah... I can see how competition for places is exactly the same...

Then OMG stop rolling your eyes (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Can't (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Were we dismissing last year's ICC too? Yes, I think you said the same thing then. 3-0 to Olympiakos, 5-1 to City and 2-0 to Liverpool.

Sure friendlies have no meaning?

We also won the TIM trophy and won against Juve in some other friendly in August...

I think they're all ultimately warm up games, and when you're playing against the opposing club's Primavera you can't really make a proper assessment

[X-Offender]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Pogba, Matuidi, Cabaye, Gonolans, Kondogbia, Valbuena

vs Italy's Veratti, Marchisio, Parolo, Bertolacci, Soriano, Bonaventura


Yeah... I can see how competition for places is exactly the same...

You forgot Florenzi, Candreva and De Rossi. I really don't think France have a better midfield.

[han2503]

You forgot Florenzi, Candreva and De Rossi. I really don't think France have a better midfield.

Candreva is usually used in the attack, but that's not saying much, I think he's an average player at best. Looks good with Lazio but usually bad for Italy

Yeah, forgot Florenzi because he wasn't picked in the last few games, De Rossi either (has he been injured?)

Also think De Rossi has majorly regressed in these last few years or so.

Pogba, Matuidi, Cabaye vs De Rossi, Verratti, Marchisio

Picking the best trio of both lots

Both have obvious weaknesses and both have a young ultra talented player. Still think the France on is better overall. I think Pogba is simply ahead of Verratti atm and Matuidi is simply ahead of the De Rossi of today

And this coming from a major Azzurri fan, but even I have to admit that the quality of the nazionale has plummeted in recent years

[X-Offender]

I disagree. I think Italy's trio you put is better.

[milanbuf88]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Pogba, Matuidi, Cabaye, Gonolans, Kondogbia, Valbuena

vs Italy's Veratti, Marchisio, Parolo, Bertolacci, Soriano, Bonaventura


Yeah... I can see how competition for places is exactly the same...

Valbuena is as much a midfielder as Insigne haha. I think Italy most definitely has the edge in midfield, especially when it comes to depth. If you consider Pirlo a part of that group as well, at least through all of the most recent big tournaments, the Italian case is even stronger. That's before we get into the shortcomings of Kondogbia's rivals like Cabaye who has been poor since leaving Newcastle.

[Fillipo Simone]

Candreva is usually used in the attack, but that's not saying much, I think he's an average player at best. Looks good with Lazio but usually bad for Italy

Yeah, forgot Florenzi because he wasn't picked in the last few games, De Rossi either (has he been injured?)

Also think De Rossi has majorly regressed in these last few years or so.

Pogba, Matuidi, Cabaye vs De Rossi, Verratti, Marchisio

Picking the best trio of both lots

Both have obvious weaknesses and both have a young ultra talented player. Still think the France on is better overall. I think Pogba is simply ahead of Verratti atm and Matuidi is simply ahead of the De Rossi of today

And this coming from a major Azzurri fan, but even I have to admit that the quality of the nazionale has plummeted in recent years

So now you discard the players you forgot to mention? Han, I really think you're wrong on this one. France might have in Pogba what Italy lacks of, but if you look at the options and selection overall, Italy has the edge. It's just that you know these players in and out, while the French look to you better because you're not so familiar with them. Or do you think only Candreva and DDR have been sleepwalkers for some time now, while Cabaye and Gonalons only do marvelous things?

[han2503]

So now you discard the players you forgot to mention? Han, I really think you're wrong on this one. France might have in Pogba what Italy lacks of, but if you look at the options and selection overall, Italy has the edge. It's just that you know these players in and out, while the French look to you better because you're not so familiar with them. Or do you think only Candreva and DDR have been sleepwalkers for some time now, while Cabaye and Gonalons only do marvelous things?

You might be right there about the French. I know the Italian players much better and I watch Serie A regularly and every Azzurri game that's played, whether that's a qualifier or just a friendly. So that might construe how I view things given how utterly sh!t they've been playing for a while now

Marchisio and Verratti are awesome players, no doubt about that. But De Rossi just hasn't been anywhere near as good as he was a few years ago. Still I think the French NT has more quality when you look at the entire midfield as a whole and not just the most likely starting trio. I mean once you remove Verratti from Italy's mid, it looks very average. You could do the same with France and remove Pogba and I don't think the drop would be as severe.

And Candreva? What can one say about him? The most one dimensional player I've ever seen, Cerci has even more natural talent than this guy. I admit tha for Lazio he looks good, but for Italy, he's always really average and doesn't add much of anything to their game.

Also, if we're going to count Candreva, then we might as well count Greizman, Ribery and Fekir who all can be listed as mids being that they are wingers/AMs but they all play in attack.

@milanbuf, I don't think Pirlo will be involved much from here on out. He's not playing in Italy anymore which already effects Conte's decision making. He hasn't officially retired but I think he's gone to the US to relax and still get to play these last few years. He certainly won't be involved in the next Euros.

[milanbuf88]

@milanbuf, I don't think Pirlo will be involved much from here on out. He's not playing in Italy anymore which already effects Conte's decision making. He hasn't officially retired but I think he's gone to the US to relax and still get to play these last few years. He certainly won't be involved in the next Euros.

Yes, I know. My point was that he has been an integral part of the Azzuri midfield up until very recently and as a result his presence has had a direct effect on the number of midfield places in the squad. This in turn effects the number of caps Bertolacci has earned to this point.

[han2503]

Yes, I know. My point was that he has been an integral part of the Azzuri midfield up until very recently and as a result his presence has had a direct effect on the number of midfield places in the squad. This in turn effects the number of caps Bertolacci has earned to this point.

I really don't think Pirlo effected Bertolacci's place in the NT squad. It's just that he's only just last season had his break out where he got noticed. Also there have been plenty of other Italian mids taking up spots who are far from great, like Parolo for example, Aquilani, Diamanti etc. So Pirlo being there or not doesn't change the fact that up until last season he wasn't putting in the performances that made either Conte or Prandelli before him pick Bertolacci over those less than stellar names

[milanbuf88]

I really don't think Pirlo effected Bertolacci's place in the NT squad. It's just that he's only just last season had his break out where he got noticed. Also there have been plenty of other Italian mids taking up spots who are far from great, like Parolo for example, Aquilani, Diamanti etc. So Pirlo being there or not doesn't change the fact that up until last season he wasn't putting in the performances that made either Conte or Prandelli before him pick Bertolacci over those less than stellar names

It's simply a matter of numbers. Pirlo was an automatic selection. That leaves one less midfield squad place. The fact that there are a number of decent but not great Italian midfielders in his way further strengthens the point that he's had more competition to deal with. Yes, he should be able to outshine the aforementioned players but he's young, wasn't on the biggest stage in Genoa, and all of those players have better name recognition and previous relationships with the NT coaching staff. Now that he's on a bigger stage at Milan it's up to him to make an impact and make sure Conte can't justify leaving him off the squad.

[han2503]

It's simply a matter of numbers. Pirlo was an automatic selection. That leaves one less midfield squad place. The fact that there are a number of decent but not great Italian midfielders in his way further strengthens the point that he's had more competition to deal with. Yes, he should be able to outshine the aforementioned players but he's young, wasn't on the biggest stage in Genoa, and all of those players have better name recognition and previous relationships with the NT coaching staff. Now that he's on a bigger stage at Milan it's up to him to make an impact and make sure Conte can't justify leaving him off the squad.

First off, he can no longer be considered a young player by footballing standards. He's 24, which means that by this time you're either established or you're not. All of the really good players for the Azzurri who've had long careers with the NT were already established NT players by then. Sure there are cases for late bloomers but it's not like Bertolacci has been fighting for a spot in the NT for a while now.

Also, every country has a good amount of mid-level range players like the ones I mentioned. So that's not really a good excuse for Bertolacci not getting in yet, vs why Kondogbia hasn't. France has guys like Rabiot for example who is a good player but isn't even considered for the NT

Also important to note that Kondogbia is younger.

[milanbuf88]

First off, he can no longer be considered a young player by footballing standards. He's 24, which means that by this time you're either established or you're not. All of the really good players for the Azzurri who've had long careers with the NT were already established NT players by then. Sure there are cases for late bloomers but it's not like Bertolacci has been fighting for a spot in the NT for a while now.

Also, every country has a good amount of mid-level range players like the ones I mentioned. So that's not really a good excuse for Bertolacci not getting in yet, vs why Kondogbia hasn't. France has guys like Rabiot for example who is a good player but isn't even considered for the NT

Also important to note that Kondogbia is younger.

I don't buy that first statement at all. There are plenty of players that establish themselves at the national level past age 24. Especially for a nation like Italy. You're moving the goal post. Where does the requirement he have a long NT career come into this? It's not unusual for a player to make a jump in quality or form in his early twenties. If he doesn't make the Euro or World Cup rosters then we'll know he's not living up to expectations. Until then you can't really argue that he's not part of the national team set up.

Maybe its just because I'm more knowledgeable on Italian players from watching Serie A but I definitely think that there are more of those midrange, decent but not great, and often flawed but still useful types of midfielders available for selection for Italy than France. That simply leaves more bodies for Bertolacci to compete with and he has to play to a higher level for attention. Perhaps some one else who watches more Ligue 1 can weigh in on that point.