[Danny]

Messi is widely regarded as the best in the world together with Cristiano, you think he's the 2nd best (maybe 3rd, I cannot recall how you rate Iniesta?) player in Barcelona... we all have different opinions.

LOL. owned. (no offense Danny (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) )

How can he have owned me when he just contradicted himself by initially saying Ronaldinho wasn't the best at Barca then saying it's all about opinions?

So, no offence taken at all!

[Zed.D]

How can he have owned me when he just contradicted himself by initially saying Ronaldinho wasn't the best at Barca then saying it's all about opinions?

You both owned each other then!

So, no offence taken at all!

Cool (IMG:style_emoticons/default/96.gif)

[Danny]

Messi is widely regarded as the best in the world together with Cristiano, you think he's the 2nd best (maybe 3rd, I cannot recall how you rate Iniesta?) player in Barcelona... we all have different opinions.

I used to consider Iniesta the best in the world but he's not sparkled much this season. And nowadays I'd say it's an even fight between Ron and Messi. As you say, it's all about opinions but you're the first person I've ever seen who believes Ronaldinho wasn't even the best at Barca, never mind the world.

I'm not saying Guardiola is incredibly special. I don't think he is. But I believe reducing his achievements with Barcelona to merely what you said above is unfair.

I'm not saying he did nothing, I just don't think he's anything that special at all.

And no, not everybody that wins is great but that does not mean that every coach that wins with a great team is not great either.

So what's Pep then (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Danny]

You both owned each other then!


Cool (IMG:style_emoticons/default/96.gif)

Everyone owns everyone on this forum. Except Jack.

[Danny]

- Depends. Is Messi the best as Barca or the tip of the spear which is actually driven by Xavi, Busquets, Alves and Iniesta?

tbh I don't think Messi would be what he is at club level without them. His inability to translate it to his country suggests so. But I am not saying he's a rubbish player either.

- Wow! You lost me? You're comparing the perennial league winners Lyon to the Barca of Guardiola? A Barca that competed in the modern era against other genuine big money clubs in Europe? Ever heard of clubs talking of parking the bus against Lyon because to do anything else is suicide??

No, I am saying it's entirely possible for a great team to be great because it is great, and not because its coach is responsible for it. Lyon were sensational for years under different coaches. They beat Real Madrid a couple of years ago with no effort, home and away.

There's a reason it is Pep's Barca that is being talked about as perhaps the greatest club side of the modern era. And don't forget exactly where Barca were when Rijkaard left. They were on the downswing. And hadn't won anything for 2 consecutive seasons.

Bit like Barca now eh?
So does that prove my point or yours?

In fact Rijkaard hasn't won anything since the 2006 CL win against a 10 man Arsenal.

Sure Pep has had the benefit of having a great set of players...but that doesn't mean he's a shite coach.

Never said he was. I said he was over rated and not as great as some seem to think.

Do I want him in Milan? No. He has a different philosophy which wouldn't work here...but he is a good coach, and a rather able tactician. I would definitely rate him over Rijkaard.

His tactics are limited to plan A. He seems to have no plan B as you've seen debated on here. If he was a great tactician, he'd be able to alter his methods to overcome obstacles.

[Jack Sparrow]

Well to be fair to him, no one talks of him now as that brilliant a coach. His importance will be realised only later when the same bunch of players don't win as much under the new manager.

When Capello/Sacchi was there, it was the Milan of the Dutch or the Milan of Baresi, Maldini etc etc...

As for Plan B...to be fair he tried something of that sort with Ibrahimovic, but it didn't work out in the end due to different reasons. He has had his share of troubles this year with injuries and fatigue too. Barca in the end have only a pool of around 20 players to play in 3 competitions (more if you include the CWC) this year.

Bit like Barca now eh?
So does that prove my point or yours?

It proves mine, coz this is nothing like the Barca Rijkaard left. Barca won the double last season. And 'even' if it's not that important, they still have a chance to win the Copa del Rey this season, so they wouldn't remain title-less at all. So that's a potential 14 titles in 5 years. Stupendous!

[acid911]

if the pressure at that level is indeed so exhausting, it makes SAF's longevity seem even more astounding.

The longer it is, the easier it gets. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) I can imagine SAF's first few years being tough, but once he passed the standard coach shelf-life of 5 years, he only cemented his legend. A bit like Arsene Wenger, he hasn't won anything of note since before the release of first iPhone, but his adventure continues.

Regardless of that I do agree, Alex Ferguson has acquired legendary status. Unmatched legendary status.

[acid911]

Everyone owns everyone on this forum. Except Jack.

Define Jack. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/innocent.gif) We have at least two of them, Baur and the plundering pirate.

[Zed.D]

Obviously Jack Bauer.

[Jack Sparrow]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) Hell hath no fury like a pirate scorned.

[Milan Are Brilli...]

The longer it is, the easier it gets. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) I can imagine SAF's first few years being tough, but once he passed the standard coach shelf-life of 5 years, he only cemented his legend. A bit like Arsene Wenger, he hasn't won anything of note since before the release of first iPhone, but his adventure continues.

The thing is SAF has always won things, not every season granted but most, it's pretty incredible especially when at times they didn't have the best team in the league/Europe, and don't either to this day.

[Danny]

The thing is SAF has always won things, not every season granted but most, it's pretty incredible especially when at times they didn't have the best team in the league/Europe, and don't either to this day.

But one thing most people forget is it took him 7 years before he even won the league at Old Trafford. I remember it well, back when I was a kid, it was Liverpool who were in control in England in the late 80s. Man Utd were a work in progress.

Managers would never be given nearly a decade now.

[Milan Are Brilli...]

But one thing most people forget is it took him 7 years before he even won the league at Old Trafford. I remember it well, back when I was a kid, it was Liverpool who were in control in England in the late 80s. Man Utd were a work in progress.

Managers would never be given nearly a decade now.

Weren't United being suggested as relegation candidates when Fergie took over, then he got them to mid-table? Then finished 2nd the following year, had a real disappointing year after that (which is possibly when he could get fired these days). Managers would get time if they turned the clubs fortunes, even without silverware (look at Moyes). Football was completely different back then in terms of parity (Liverpool aside) and yes I agree to a point managers get no where near enough time, certainly at the higher level.

[Danny]

Weren't United being suggested as relegation candidates when Fergie took over, then he got them to mid-table? Then finished 2nd the following year, had a real disappointing year after that (which is possibly when he could get fired these days). Managers would get time if they turned the clubs fortunes, even without silverware (look at Moyes). Football was completely different back then in terms of parity (Liverpool aside) and yes I agree to a point managers get no where near enough time, certainly at the higher level.

Moyes has actually been a very interesting case. He's flirted with relegation on many an occasion in his tenure. One season he's got Everton doing brilliantly - they even ended up in the Q3 for CL a number of years ago, the next they're in a dogfight with Wigan or suchlike.

[kurtsimonw]

Madrid currently 3-0 up, Ronaldo now has 42 on the season.