[acid911]

A better team than Barcelona? I doubt one ever existed

While the world has seen better teams than Barcelona, I think what Kurt meant was that Messi needs a better team like Barcelona to function at optimum capacity. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) In a weaker unit such as his NT, his performance is nowhere near. While other legends before him gave their all in the every team, including their national teams.

I'll buy the Messi hype when and if he becomes as good as Maradona, everywhere - if not better.

[Jack Bauer]

I'd agree with this. Messi, in my opinion, needs a better team around him to perform at his very best. Ronaldo is Ronaldo regardless of where he plays. Scoring regularly from 30 yards and being great in the air has very little to do with team mates.

Don't think so. Ronaldo was never as great for his NT team as he was for his clubs either. I think I had that discussion with you some time ago. Also, it's not like Ronaldo has ever played for a weak team, United and Madrid always had strong squads.

National teams is a different animal with a different conditions comared to a club. Argentinan team has a lot of talent but mainly in attack. They have a weak keeper, crappy defence and usually clueless coaches. Having said that, yes Messi wasn't great for Argentina but that is too small of an example IMO to throw it at him at this time. He's only 24 though, and will have plenty of chances to bring Argentina something. Maradona had his amazing world cup at 26.

This post has been edited by Jack Bauer: Apr 1 2012, 01:16 PM

[kurtsimonw]

He hasn't been spectacular for country, but he still outshines Messi by a huge amount.

He scored a goal in a Euro SF to lead Portugal to a Euro Final and helped to get them to a WC SF. Argentina play in a far worse region where the best team doesn't even take the tournement seriously and still only managed a QF appearance at home.

Ronaldo has scored in every major tournement he has played in (Euro 04 and 08, WC 06 and 10) as well as scoring 22 goals in qualifying to help his team get to tournements. Pretty much all of his goals are competitive.

Messi has scored 6 goals in qualifiers, but that includes 2014 qualifiers which haven't started in Europe. In tournements Messi has 3 goals (none of which against top opposition) and no tournement goal since 2007. Pretty much all of his goals are in friendlies.

So, in my opinion, he's better for club and country (on a weaker country I think) which is why he gets the #1 label from me.

This post has been edited by kurtsimonw: Apr 1 2012, 02:43 PM

[Jack Bauer]

Outshines Messi by a huge amount? not really. His record for Portugal is very mediocre: 32 goals in almost 90 games. Scored in every major tournement he has played in? yes, but that's only 5 goals in 4 major tounaments which is very poor (of course Ronaldo will score more in qualification, Copa don't have them). So please don't tell me how Ronaldo is Ronaldo anywhere no matter with whom he plays - that's just not true. Messi has been poor for his country as well and that's was my point - both not as good as for their clubs.

And how he's better for club? Messi's overall numbers (goals and assists) are much better, especailly in the CL (where his record is pretty amazing while Ronaldo's is o.k but nothing spectacular despite playing more games) and outperformed Ronaldo almost every time they met. Both great players but I think that Messi overall is a better player, though not by much.

[kurtsimonw]

His record for Portugal is very mediocre: 32 goals in almost 90 games.

His scoring rate for Portugal is better than Messi's for Portugal.

Scored in every major tournement he has played in? yes, but that's only 5 goals in 4 major tounaments which is very poor

Ronaldo has 5 in 4, including goals against that years European Champions and Holland. Messi has played in the same amount of tournements (4), but has only 3 goals - with the best quality opposition being Mexico. So again, better than Messi.

of course Ronaldo will score more in qualification, Copa don't have them

They've both played in 2 World Cups - 2006 and 2010 - Ronaldo scored 6 in qualifying to Messi's 4 (despite South American qualifying having more games). Ronaldo beats Messi here, too.

And how he's better for club?

Because the only comparable is La Liga. If Messi plays in England does great, then I will admit otherwise, but Ronaldo in Spain > Messi in Spain (despite being on a worse team as seen in the head-to-heads). Though I do think the age has a bearing in that and the time played. Obviously Ronaldo joined in his prime while Messi started as a kid, so when they've both played a few more years in La Liga together.

I don't see how when Barca play Madrid has anything to do with it. Is Messi a right back? All that shows to me is that Dani Alves is a very good defender.

I think Ronaldo is better as an individual, Messi is a better team player. I will argue my case for Ronaldo, but I won't say someone is wrong if they think Messi is #1.

This post has been edited by kurtsimonw: Apr 1 2012, 07:39 PM

[X-Offender]

His scoring rate for Portugal is better than Messi's for Portugal.

Well, yeah, considering Messi has never played for Portugal. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

[kurtsimonw]

Well, yeah, considering Messi has never played for Portugal. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

My point remains. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Oh, and congrats to Higuain for his 100th Madrid goal. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/king.gif)

[Jack Bauer]

His scoring rate for Portugal is better than Messi's for Portugal.

Ronaldo has 5 in 4, including goals against that years European Champions and Holland. Messi has played in the same amount of tournements (4), but has only 3 goals - with the best quality opposition being Mexico. So again, better than Messi.

They've both played in 2 World Cups - 2006 and 2010 - Ronaldo scored 6 in qualifying to Messi's 4 (despite South American qualifying having more games). Ronaldo beats Messi here, too.

Because the only comparable is La Liga. If Messi plays in England does great, then I will admit otherwise, but Ronaldo in Spain > Messi in Spain (despite being on a worse team as seen in the head-to-heads). Though I do think the age has a bearing in that and the time played. Obviously Ronaldo joined in his prime while Messi started as a kid, so when they've both played a few more years in La Liga together.

I don't see how when Barca play Madrid has anything to do with it. Is Messi a right back? All that shows to me is that Dani Alves is a very good defender.

I think Ronaldo is better as an individual, Messi is a better team player. I will argue my case for Ronaldo, but I won't say someone is wrong if they think Messi is #1.

There's no a big difference. Ronaldo scored 32 goals in 88 games, Messi scored 22 in 68 games. But Messi has more assists.

Again, your claim was that Ronaldo is great even on lesser teams. His Portugal record shows otherwise. Even if Ronaldo's record there is slightly better than Messi's, he's still very mediocre there so the sentence I originally quoted "Ronaldo is Ronaldo regardless of where he plays" is just not true.

Ronaldo in Spain > Messi in Spain? Really? Ronaldo during his time in Spain (all competitions) has 133 goals in 133 games. Messi during this time has 156 goals in 156 games with much more assists.

Barca and Madrid games (not particularly the final score but the performances of Messi and Ronaldo) are relevant in order to show that Messi performed much better for his club in big games than Ronaldo for his. Messi record in Classicos is way superior, just as he performed much better in CL over the years. 49 goals in 65 games (Messi) to 35 goals in 83 games (Ronaldo).

I think Messi is better both as an individual and and as a team player, though the difference is not big and I have no problem if someone prefers CR though he's not my cup of tea. I didn't say you are wrong in thinking otherwise, it's not like we are comparing Mesbah to Maldini here.

This post has been edited by Jack Bauer: Apr 1 2012, 08:07 PM

[kurtsimonw]

it's not like we are comparing Mesbah to Maldini here.

Hmm, well Mesbah did hold out Barca when he came on whilst Maldini conceeded to some Rangers old guys..

[Jack Bauer]

Hmm, well Mesbah did hold out Barca when he came on whilst Maldini conceeded to some Rangers old guys..

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Rossoneri7]

Messi is only 24, while strikers/forwards mature at 25 and reach their peak thereafter.. This young Argentine has so much potential its scary to think how good he would be in two years time.

Ronaldo is excellent and crucial for both united and madrid, he is complete, yet this is his peak.

[kurtsimonw]

I'll go on record to say this will be Messi's best season of his career in terms of goals, people can quote this if he beats it - but I don't see it.

[Jack Bauer]

It might be, though you never know. So far he has 56 goals in 48 games. He can reach around 65-70, which I don't remember anyone doing in a top european team.

This post has been edited by Jack Bauer: Apr 1 2012, 11:30 PM

[Jack Bauer]

So I was checking some stats of great players from the past and Gerd Müller scored 67 goals in 49 games in 72-73 season for Bayern. Pretty amazing.

This post has been edited by Jack Bauer: Apr 1 2012, 11:58 PM

[kurtsimonw]

That will take some beating.