[han2503]

Well, I didn't want Boateng in attack also, but Robinho instead of Ronaldinho and kinda play like this:
Ibrahimovic and Robinho as attack, and Seedorf, Gattuso, Pirlo and Boateng as midfield.

Playing Ronaldinho would slow down the team, and I don't like playing him as the only other forward.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Ronaldinho would slow the team... I really cannot believe the bias I see from you and X-Off, at least be consistant and fair. You have Pirlo, Seedorf and Rino in that midfield and you're worried about Ronaldinho slowing the team? At least Ronaldinho can create something when we're really struggling, You think Seedorf will do that in the tight spaces we'll have to play in against Parma? Please!! Seedorf is even worse when playing a small team in the league yet you want him to play ahead of Dinho? Ridiculous!!

I really don't understand you 2, you think I like having Dinho as the only decent option as a creativ mid/forward?? Would I kill to have Pastore or at least VDV on our team? Sure, if that were the case I'd want Dinho out on his @ss faster then both of you, but this is our reality and wanting Seedorf to play instead of him to me is ridiculous on so many levels. Seedorf isn't even a natural AM, he got dominated for mos of the game against Ajax and the only time he really made an impact was when he was left in acres of space (qeue the goal and the assist for Robinho)

[CHU-LIP]

Ronaldinho would slow the team... I really cannot believe the bias I see from you and X-Off, at least be consistant and fair. You have Pirlo, Seedorf and Rino in that midfield and you're worried about Ronaldinho slowing the team? At least Ronaldinho can create something when we're really struggling, You think Seedorf will do that in the tight spaces we'll have to play in against Parma? Please!! Seedorf is even worse when playing a small team in the league yet you want him to play ahead of Dinho? Ridiculous!!

Let me explain why I disagree with you...

The difference between Pirlo, Seedorf and Gattuso and Ronaldinho is that the Ronaldinho is too static. He doesn't move, he just waits for the ball. Look at Gattuso, he runs and runs and runs. Seedorf also does more than Ronaldinho. The first three move more, contribute in defending (are midfielders), while Ronaldinho as a forward, I mean, a FORWARD should not be static at all. Ronaldinho is not a midfielder, not a forward really, he is just someone who needs to be to big focus point or else you better not play him at all. Now we got good players like Ibrahimovic, Ronaldinho won't be the one where it's all about. Ronaldinho: no movement, when receives ball he slows down the attack, doesn't defend... I see some difference.

[X-Offender]

Sure, if that were the case I'd want Dinho out on his @ss faster then both of you [...]

I highly doubt that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Fair point han, but I think Seedorf suits more our way of playing than Dinho does. He's a midfielder, so the team will always be more covered. He plays as a trequartista, so we can use the 4-3-1-2 line-up. He's played in this team for nearly a decade, so he knows how to handle certain situations better than Dinho. Should he be a starter? No. But we don't have other alternatives in his role. Playing Dinho instead would disrupt the equilibrium of our game. This is a team build to play a 4-3-1-2 system. Blue has said it many times, we don't have the players for a 4-3-3. Another solution would be playing Dinho as a trequartista, but the fact Allegri doesn't want to play him there should tell you that the guy is not suited for such a position. It's either play our game or Dinho's game, and frankly, I'd choose the former.

As I've already mentioned it, we'll just have to live with this situation for the remaining of the season. Then Dinho will leave, we'll sign a good/great AM and things will finally start turning the right way.

This post has been edited by X-Offender: Oct 1 2010, 09:23 PM

[CHU-LIP]

As I've already mentioned it, we'll just have to live with this situation for remaining of the season. Then Dinho will leave, we'll sign a good/great AM and things will finally start turning the right way.

Remaining of season? We better fix this in January. Unless Ronaldinho finally learns to work for the team he needs to be gone in January and an actual AM need to be signed instead, because Seedorf isn't really the AM I am looking for.

[X-Offender]

Remaining of season? We better fix this in January. Unless Ronaldinho finally learns to work for the team he needs to be gone in January and an actual AM need to be signed instead, because Seedorf isn't really the AM I am looking for.

Well, if I had to choose, I would fire Ronaldinho right now. But looking at it from a rational point of view, I can't see anything of that happening coming January.

[han2503]

Let me explain why I disagree with you...

The difference between Pirlo, Seedorf and Gattuso and Ronaldinho is that the Ronaldinho is too static. He doesn't move, he just waits for the ball. Look at Gattuso, he runs and runs and runs. Seedorf also does more than Ronaldinho. The first three move more, contribute in defending (are midfielders), while Ronaldinho as a forward, I mean, a FORWARD should not be static at all. Ronaldinho is not a midfielder, not a forward really, he is just someone who needs to be to big focus point or else you better not play him at all. Now we got good players like Ibrahimovic, Ronaldinho won't be the one where it's all about. Ronaldinho: no movement, when receives ball he slows down the attack, doesn't defend... I see some difference.

Gattuso is a totally different entity, when it comes to Pirlo, yes he moves a lot, in fact when you see the UEFA distance meter they used to have in games he's usually number 1 in that respect, Seedorf isn't anywhere near that. When he plays in the midfield 3 he has to move more, it's not even a choice, but when you move him forward you have the same thing as with Dinho. When Dinho is on the wing he's usually static, but that is for a reason, he has Seedorf and Antonini on his side, last season it was our strongest side for a reason, but this season it has been figured out, now you have Seedorf and Dinho running into a brick wall, and Antonini running up but has no one to support his runs because Seedorf and Dinho play themselves into a mess on that left win.

This is why I want a 4-3-1-2 with Dinho in behind. Playing there would require him to move more, at least give the man 2 to 3 games to try, everything else we have tried has failed, why not this?

As for getting in the new players, etc, etc. Sure you can bring in Ibra and Robinho etc, but who's going to give them the service they need. We're already seeing a pattern developing with Ibra scoring all our goals, most of them coming by a hoefull pass/long ball and he somehow manages to put it in. This is a big problem for us. Your reasoning imo doesn't really make any sense to me because all the players in that midfield aside from Boateng tend to slow down the game one way or another, Rino when he's on the ball and cannot find Pirlo immediately next to him, Pirlo when he takes his sweet @ss time on the ball making those little faints and turns instead of passing it quickly and don't get me started on Seedorf and the turtle like pace he moves at. Dinho has his flaws as well, but to amplify his and just brush aside the glaring ones from the others is not a balanced view. And at this moment in time, flaws or not Dinho is the only man in our team that I can see that has the ability to deliver a final killer ball for Zlatan/Robinho/Pato.

Also Ronaldinho is not a forward, what is his best quality? Passing and Vision, that to me means he should be in behind the strikers, not stuck on the left wing constantly crossing those in-swingers.

[CHU-LIP]

If Ronaldinho moves a lot, contributes in defending, WORKS FOR THE TEAM, then I am all for Ronaldinho as AM in a 4-3-1-2, but the way he has been... he is VERY FAR away from being that, then EVEN Seedorf is a better AM option. I would never call Ronaldinho a midfielder as long as he doesn't move and defend enough... now he is a too static wingerish forward.

[han2503]

I highly doubt that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Fair point han, but I think Seedorf suits more our way of playing than Dinho does. He's a midfielder, so the team will always be more covered. He plays as a trequartista, so we can use the 4-3-1-2 line-up. He's played in this team for nearly a decade, so he knows how to handle certain situations better than Dinho. Should he be a starter? No. But we don't have other alternatives in his role. Playing Dinho instead would disrupt the equilibrium of our game. This is a team build to play a 4-3-1-2 system. Blue has said it many times, we don't have the players for a 4-3-3. Another solution would be playing Dinho as a trequartista, but the fact Allegri doesn't want to play him there should tell you that the guy is not suited for such a position. It's either play our game or Dinho's game, and frankly, I'd choose the former.

As I've already mentioned it, we'll just have to live with this situation for the remaining of the season. Then Dinho will leave, we'll sign a good/great AM and things will finally start turning the right way.

Stupid little fact, but the first thing I do when I start my Fifa Manager Mode is to sell Dinho and bring in VDV, in EVERY season I start. I defend the guy because I find all your posts and jabs at him way too harsh. The guy is not my favourite person around, but he's humble, never complains and never talks cr@p to the media no matter what, that to me means that he's earned some form of respect. Mayb you don't see it that way but I do, and imo at this point we have no one better then him when it comes to providing service and link up play between midfield and attack.

Looking at the Ajax game, our midfield got dominated for at least 65% of the 90 minutes. Seedorf wasn't doing anything when it came to keeping that midfield compact and helping with closing down players. Imo Seedorf or Dinho we're still swimming in the same pile of cr@p, but when on the ball Dinho gives us that extra touch of quality that Seedorf does not.

I don't see how playing Dinho instead of Seedorf would disrupt out equilibrium. If Dinho is given the instructions that when we're not on the ball he should move back then he'll do that, he's a very smart player he's not an idiot. Allegri doesn't want to give Dinho a try there for 2 reasons imo, either he's afraid that it won't work or that Silvio we'll chew his @ss off for not playing Dinho closer to goal, it's probably a combination of the 2. But until we bring in someone else, Seedorf is not our answer. Give Dihno 2 to 3 matches playing in that position, especially after international break, they can try out some different set ups. Either way something needs to change, Seedorf playing in the whole is not a solution and neither is playing Dinho out on that wing. Maybe when Pato is fit we can go to the 4-3-3 with Robinho and Pato on each wing, but that still worries me in terms of the service those 3 strikers still need to come close to their full potential.

Imo something like this could probably be given a decent try

Flamini--Boateng
Pirlo
Pato--Ibra--Robinho

[han2503]

If Ronaldinho moves a lot, contributes in defending, WORKS FOR THE TEAM, then I am all for Ronaldinho as AM in a 4-3-1-2, but the way he has been... he is VERY FAR away from being that, then EVEN Seedorf is a better AM option. I would never call Ronaldinho a midfielder as long as he doesn't move and defend enough... now he is a too static wingerish forward.

Playing on the lest wing used to give him that excuse, because he didn't really need to move much, wait for the ball, make a trick, cut inside or cross in for Pato/Boriello

Having him play behind the strikers would require him to move a lot more, stay compact with his midfield when we don't have the ball etc, etc. This would all depend on the tactics Allegri would implement. But playing Dinho on that wing is just not an option anymore. Seedorf to me is just not an AM, no matter which way I look at it. watching him against Ajax just drove this further home to me. Seedorf is a CM, imo Pirlo is more of an AM then him. Seedorf likes to play that backwords pass too much, he usually stops the ball when we're trying to counter. Playing him in the AM position doesn't make any sense to me, the fact that he doesn't really track back all that much also baffles me as to why you would wan him to play ahead of Dinho so much since he usually strolls or jogs (on special occasions) for 85% of a match

[CHU-LIP]

Playing on the lest wing used to give him that excuse, because he didn't really need to move much, wait for the bal, make a trick, cut inside or cross in for Pato/Boriello

Having him play behind the strikers would require him to move a lot more, stay compact with his midfield when we don't have the bal etc, etc. This would all depend on the tactics Allegri would implement. But playing Dinho on that wing is just not an option anymore. Seedorf to me is just not an AM, no matter which way I look at it. watching him against Ajax just drove this further how to me. Seedorf is a CM, imo Pirlo is more of an AM then him. Seedorf like to play that backwords pass too much, he usually stops the ball when we're trying to counter. Playing him in the AM position doesn't make any sense to me, the fact that he doesn't really track back all that much also baffls me as to why you would wan him to play ahead of Dinho so much since he usually strolls or jogs or special occasions for 85% of a match

And Ronaldinho doesn't? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

I disagree that as LW he doesn't need to move much. The fact he doesn't do that enough hurts the team.

[han2503]

And Ronaldinho doesn't? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

I disagree that as LW he doesn't need to move much. The fact he doesn't do that enough hurts the team.

Not when we're counter attacking, in buildup play, he does it but not we're countering. When you watch a game in the San Siro and we're playing badly has it never occured to you that Seedorf is usually the one getting booed and whistled most of the time? Not any other player, not Pirlo, Dinho, Ambro, Rino, non of them, just Seedorf. Why? we need a goal and what does he do? Keep passing it back to the defense or sideways.

Last season it was an excuse, simply because he had Antonini and Seedorf there, he still moved back but not in the wayyou or I would want him to. It still worked 99% of the time for a lot of reasons, reasons that aren't valid now. So you've got that left side where Dinho is static waiting for the ball, Seedorf is just not on his game, by the time Dinho gets that ball he's got 2 players on him, Antonini makes that run but Dihno and Seedorf are already stuck in a mess.

Dinho going into a midfield area would force that movement from him. It's a matter of trying, if not then we need to figure something out and fast, Dihno or no Dinho it's not going to work out at this rate, we're still not defnesively compact with or without him at this point, if Ajax weren't firing blanks we could have lost that game. Usually we managed to stop them with that last ditch tackle in our box or around it, to me that doesn't signify defensive stability, just that we have 2 good CBs who can handle all the pressure our midfield puts them under

[servbot]

I'm not a tactician or a scout, so I'll keep my nose out of the discussion about where to play who.

However, I'd like to point out one observation that I think may be important here. Although the sample size this season is small, when you account for last season's ups and downs as well, there has been one constant that determined how effective Ronaldinho and the left wing was in attack. That constant is whether or not Pato is playing on the right side.

[han2503]

I'm not a tactician or a scout, so I'll keep my nose out of the discussion about where to play who.

However, I'd like to point out one observation that I think may be important here. Although the sample size this season is small, when you account for last season's ups and downs as well, there has been one constant that determined how effective Ronaldinho and the left wing was in attack. That constant is whether or not Pato is playing on the right side.

Good point as well. Pato was an outlet, either when Dinho cut inside and Pato made that diagonal run ahead of him or when we're countering and Dinho realeses that long ball to Pato. The fact that we have Ibra now instead of Bori also changes things. Bori would usually sit in his position and Dinho and Pato would play off of him, while Ibra is different, he's constantly moving and trying to get involved in the play himself, thus Dinho does not have a point of reference to play off of.

Imo this is why that International break in important, a lot of players need to regroup, problem is Ibra won't be there for training. So we're still stuck with the same problem we're in now, do we play in midweek once the international break is over or the following weekend? Imo a full weeks training with every player there would do us a world of good

[Guest_Suhail 3_*]

Ibra should just retire from international football so he can focus on Milan and Milan only

I remember him saying something along those lines whilst at barca

[shevchenko_007]

Let me explain why I disagree with you...

The difference between Pirlo, Seedorf and Gattuso and Ronaldinho is that the Ronaldinho is too static. He doesn't move, he just waits for the ball. Look at Gattuso, he runs and runs and runs. Seedorf also does more than Ronaldinho. The first three move more, contribute in defending (are midfielders), while Ronaldinho as a forward, I mean, a FORWARD should not be static at all. Ronaldinho is not a midfielder, not a forward really, he is just someone who needs to be to big focus point or else you better not play him at all. Now we got good players like Ibrahimovic, Ronaldinho won't be the one where it's all about. Ronaldinho: no movement, when receives ball he slows down the attack, doesn't defend... I see some difference.

May I remind everybody that Ronnie won 2 World Player of the Years playing like this... They didn't just give it to him for no reason.
IMO it's the rest of the team that just stand there and wait for him to do something special with the ball that is the problem. Difference is that the Barca midfielders and forwards were always moving and he could take on someone and give a killer ball to someone who was free.
With us, he gets the ball, looks and up and sees no one is on, so even if he does get past a defender there is no one to give a killer pass to so he just plays it simple.
For me, the reason Ronnie is not playing well is because he's not enjoying himself and I don't think he likes the lack of movement from the team.
Playing on the left wing area is his position and he has made a career out of staying there, so I don't think it's him that's the problem.

But he is losing the ball too much at the moment.