[kurtsimonw]

There's been a few things coming out of UEFA lately, like the spending caps, 6+5 rule, etc and I didn't kno where to put them without going OT in another thread in Football Discussion. Lock if you don't feel it'll be used enough.

Anyways, something else from UEFA.

Uefa gives green light for Platini's spending restrictions on clubs

The plan devised by Uefa's president, Michel Platini, to make clubs live within their means was approved by an executive committee meeting of European football's governing body today.

Dubbed "financial fair play", the new rules will in principle ban clubs from spending more than they make from their revenues, and aim to curtail the trend of rich owners buying into the game and transforming the fortunes of a club.

"We don't want to kill or hurt the clubs, on the contrary we want to help them in the market," Platini told reporters, adding he had the support of the clubs. "The teams who play in our tournaments have unanimously agreed to our principles," he claimed.

Platini said the new rules would be implemented in the 2012-13 season and clubs who failed to abide by them could ultimately be thrown out of European competition. The new rules would not cover domestic competitions, but only clubs who were competing in the Champions League or Europa League.

In my opinion, this will single handedly destroy the competition in football, it's sickening to read, at least when applied to the EPL anyway.

The way I see it is this. Being in the top 4 gives you so much more money, this is what helps turn a team into a super power, consistant CL qualification. Who are the biggest threats to the CL teams? Using comon sense that would be the teams in 5th and 6th, the places just outside the CL positions. With this new proposal, it pretty much guarentees that the teams in 5th and 6th have no chance of breaking the top 4. The new proposal wants teams in Europe to be capped, with the restriction in spending being based on their income. So the teams that had the best chance of breaking the top 4 are now being restricted in what they can spend, not only this, but they will be able to spend LESS than the teams in the CL as it's based on income! So this will make the gap between 4th and 5th even bigger. Generally, teams outside of Europe are 1. so far away from 4th place that they aren't a worry to the CL teams and 2. don't have the spending power to bridge the gap. It seems that finishing in a Europa League places makes you the most disadvantaged team in the league, you hardly get any revenue from the competition and then you are restricted by how much you can spend.

Thank God for Man City right now, otherwise there would be no hope of anyone breaking the top 4 in this country. Ridiculous, poorly thought out idea from Platini and the money greedy UEFA.

[Jack Sparrow]

Are you sure this report of your has included everything in it?

For instance, I'm guessing the amount they would be allowed to spend:

Transfer fund = Total Income - Obligations (like debt payments, wages etc.)

I think this would ensure a fairly level field.

But you're right. Billionaires could technically invest x amount of money even then, since it needn't be considered a loan.

[kurtsimonw]

I think the plan would be fair had it been something more strict, but when you're using income it goes some teams such a big advantage over others. I think teams need to be given an eact limit on how much they can spend for that year. Something like:

CL Teams: £25m net
EL Teams: £40m net
The rest: £50m net

I'd wish for something like this, but UEFA don't have the balls to oppose Europes biggest clubs.

I also think in regard to the HG quota that will be introduced next season, they need to have requirements for the 11 onfield players, rather than just squad requirements.

[Jack Sparrow]

I agree. 8 HG in a squad of 25 is pathetic. At least half that number ought to be HG. What's the point in it being a football club, if it isn't the least bit local.

[Tennie]

$$$

[kurtsimonw]

I agree. 8 HG in a squad of 25 is pathetic. At least half that number ought to be HG. What's the point in it being a football club, if it isn't the least bit local.

I completely agree.

Obviously everybody feels there club does things the right way, but I really feel Villa do. We have 24 HG players according to the new rules, we have 5 or 6 in the current squad that were born in Birmingham or it's surrounding areas. We have arguably got the best academy in the country, certainly in the top 3 as we regularly do well and we regularly bring players through to the first team. We have also spent more money on English players than any other club since MON took over and have produced more England internationals than any other club in the country.

We're an English club from Birmingham and I want our squad to show that. It gives the club an identity and the fan/player interaction takes a boost as a result. We love the players and they love us. Despite only 1 being born in Birmingham, the way the lads celebrated on Sunday you'd have thought al XI were Birmingham born and bred, its fantastic.

It might mean nothing to some people and it means nothing in terms of success. But it's certainly something I'm proud of.

[Tennie]

You SHOULD be proud of it, Kurt.

Villa are a good club built in what I think of as the right way (emphasis on local, attention to the academy, etc). You have a sane owner who doesn't mind some (but never insane crazy money) spending and who, unlike some other owners, has NO DEBT on the books. You've got a coach who's good and who's wildly entertaining to watch on the sidelines.

I think most everyone knows I don't particularly like a lot to do with the sport in England, but I do definitely appreciate and admire Villa (and it's NOT just because of the flashing antlers).

[Danny]

Platini has some good ideas, but many misguided ones. He's a very left wing PC-minded liberal whose ideas are wishy washy hippy-esque equality nonsense.

You'll never have parity in football - if you did, the standard would dip dramatically. Yeah, it might be more competitive, but it's hardly entertaining to watch Bognor Juniors V Averstein Rovers - they are equal though...

[kurtsimonw]

I agree with every word of that.

[Bluesummers]

UEFA president Michel Platini has warned big-spending clubs like Real Madrid and Manchester City that lavish spending policies will be ousted by 2012.

"From 2012, clubs will spend what they earn," Platini told La Gazzetta Dello Sport.

"I want to help clubs, not kill them. I think €93 million is excessive for a player. Will there be opposition? Maybe from liberal presidents who want to continue their business."

The Frenchman has also ruled out using video technology on the pitch to help match officials with uncertain decisions.

"You might as well be playing on the PlayStation," exclaimed the former Juventus man.

[kurtsimonw]

Platini is so naive. Like I said before, Man Citys owners will just sponsor Man City for *enter however much they want to spend on transfers* and it will be considered income. It'll basically help City more as their rivals won't be able to spend as much as they do now.

Idiot.

[dst]

He must have looked into that. We should check the whole thing.

[LaPalma]

The guys at UEFA can't be that stupid. Even a smart 10 yo could come up with that solution. I'm sure they think of some arrangements to prevent this.

[Bluesummers]

Platini is so naive. Like I said before, Man Citys owners will just sponsor Man City for *enter however much they want to spend on transfers* and it will be considered income. It'll basically help City more as their rivals won't be able to spend as much as they do now.

Idiot.

obviously they will audit and keep a close eyes on club. They probably will want a statement proving how much they earn and where the money comes from etc and i'm sure they will rule out such donations that the owners could provide.


However, I wonder whats going to happen to clubs with big debt? Do they get penalised and have to pay it off first before spending or what?

[Tennie]

I think I've read that it depends on the kind of debt they have. Capital debt (ie, owing money to the banks because they're building new stadiums) won't count. Debt for buying expensive players (like the 100+ million Real owe to Spanish banks) will.

[Protagonist]

Perhaps, this would level the playing field from here on. Restrictions on the extravagant spends; like taking a mid to bottom table team and soaking it with unlimited funds to make it a contender in no less than two years is not what football is all about.

Manchester C is exactly the reason why clubs have raised the issue to UEFA. But I do not think that those clubs that raised the issue to UEFA will benefit from it more than those that do not make it to the top four kurtsimonw, logically those clubs competing for a top four finish would have higher wages to deal with, than say a mid to bottom table team. So it would all be in proportion I guess.

Discrediting UEFA, if I may, does blur the idea further. And makes it look like a controversy is being cooked to benefit the likes of Man U and us.

ps On the issue of club presidents putting their own money into their clubs, isn't that why UEFA came up with this solution in the first place?

[kurtsimonw]

obviously they will audit and keep a close eyes on club. They probably will want a statement proving how much they earn and where the money comes from etc and i'm sure they will rule out such donations that the owners could provide.

It wouldn't matter. Citys owners could change their shirt sponsor to the logo of one of their other business and pay them however much they wanted per year on the shirt sponsor deal. There's nothing wrong with that and you can't stop it, it's no different than any other sponsor, except for the amount of money. To stop it you'd need to stop shirt sponsors.

[Jack Sparrow]

It wouldn't matter. Citys owners could change their shirt sponsor to the logo of one of their other business and pay them however much they wanted per year on the shirt sponsor deal. There's nothing wrong with that and you can't stop it, it's no different than any other sponsor, except for the amount of money. To stop it you'd need to stop shirt sponsors.

If they're using one of their own companies, then those respective companies cannot afford to put in a lot of money. That money has to be shown to have come from the company's account. And the more money they put into Man City, they have to either show a corresponding return in business terms or have a higher bottom line profit.

On that other hand, the owner doesn't need to account to anyone. Like Abramovich, when he ploughed in 600 MM.

[kurtsimonw]

If they're using one of their own companies, then those respective companies cannot afford to put in a lot of money. That money has to be shown to have come from the company's account. And the more money they put into Man City, they have to either show a corresponding return in business terms or have a higher bottom line profit.

On that other hand, the owner doesn't need to account to anyone. Like Abramovich, when he ploughed in 600 MM.

I agree with your first comment, but surely for Man Citys owners to have such huge amounts of money, one of their companies would have to be earning huge amounts of money? Then they'd just use this to sponsor the Man City shirt instead of just using it as direct transfer funds.

[Jack Sparrow]

Well when you rule a country, the state's wealth is your wealth. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[kurtsimonw]

Oh, I just presumed they were in oil or something. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

[Jack Sparrow]

Nope. They're the ruling family of Abu Dhabi. Sheikh in their titles remember? That's the equivalent of saying 'His Highness'.

[il_diavolo_mtl]

Nope. They're the ruling family of Abu Dhabi. Sheikh in their titles remember? That's the equivalent of saying 'His Highness'.

if only italy's leader was as supportive (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[Tennie]

So, Swiss referee Massimo Bussaca is generally thought of as one of the better refs in Europe. But he's got a naughty streak.

First, over the weekend, he gave a one-fingered salute to fans during a Swiss league game. link

And then secondly, while refereeing a game in Qatar, he relieved himself on the pitch while the players were positioning themselves for a corner. link

Fishdoll tsk tsk, such bad manners!

[il_diavolo_mtl]

So, Swiss referee Massimo Bussaca is generally thought of as one of the better refs in Europe. But he's got a naughty streak.

First, over the weekend, he gave a one-fingered salute to fans during a Swiss league game. link

And then secondly, while refereeing a game in Qatar, he relieved himself on the pitch while the players were positioning themselves for a corner. link

Fishdoll tsk tsk, such bad manners!

FAIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[kurtsimonw]

I know you try to be as fair as possible, Jack, but sometimes your homerism comes to the front.

Capello ,Carlo, Hiddink, can do what Jose has done, provided the same money.

Carlo won 1 league title in 9 years at Juve/Milan, I've yet to see him really accomplish anything outstanding. Winning the CL is fine, it is a good achievment, but with the squads/players he's had? He's won 3 major titles with these clubs, 1 competition every 3 years. I have to say that's a prety awful record. Carlo may not have directly spent any money, but Inzaghi, Sheva, Nesta, Rui Costa, etc. were players at his disposal and they weren't exactly free.

Sacchi already proved it with Milan. The point is none of these coaches were constantly given the same amount of resources that Jose has been.

I disagree strongly with this. Did Jose spend money? No doubt, and lots of it. But in relation to the money spend and the time they spent it, Sacchi certainly spent more. Didn't Sacchi break the World transfer record once or twice with his signings? The Milan of the late 80s/early 90s was probably the first Galactico's era in modern football! Jose didn't break World records, in fact, I don't think he broke the British record. Sheva may have come close, but then I'd even say that weren't his signing.

I think too much emphasis and spotlight is put on his time at Chelsea. It's the same with MON at Villa, we have a section of support that doesn't like him and say he'd only done well at Celtic because it was a 2 horse race, but he had ridiculous success at Wycombe and Leicester, just like Jose had at Porto.

Jose didn't leave because he wasn't doing well, hell, they didn't win the league the season before he left either. I think he was sick of being undermined by the owner.

[Jack Sparrow]

I know you try to be as fair as possible, Jack, but sometimes your homerism comes to the front.


Carlo won 1 league title in 9 years at Juve/Milan, I've yet to see him really accomplish anything outstanding. Winning the CL is fine, it is a good achievment, but with the squads/players he's had? He's won 3 major titles with these clubs, 1 competition every 3 years. I have to say that's a prety awful record. Carlo may not have directly spent any money, but Inzaghi, Sheva, Nesta, Rui Costa, etc. were players at his disposal and they weren't exactly free.


I disagree strongly with this. Did Jose spend money? No doubt, and lots of it. But in relation to the money spend and the time they spent it, Sacchi certainly spent more. Didn't Sacchi break the World transfer record once or twice with his signings? The Milan of the late 80s/early 90s was probably the first Galactico's era in modern football! Jose didn't break World records, in fact, I don't think he broke the British record. Sheva may have come close, but then I'd even say that weren't his signing.

I think too much emphasis and spotlight is put on his time at Chelsea. It's the same with MON at Villa, we have a section of support that doesn't like him and say he'd only done well at Celtic because it was a 2 horse race, but he had ridiculous success at Wycombe and Leicester, just like Jose had at Porto.

Jose didn't leave because he wasn't doing well, hell, they didn't win the league the season before he left either. I think he was sick of being undermined by the owner.

I don't get this part.

I can argue that Mourinho had Cole, Terry, Lampard, Makalele at his disposal too. Maybe not CL material, but definitely good enough to win the league, which Mourinho did after spending some more.

And the transfer record has really no basis.

So suppose Milan paid 94 million euros to buy Ronaldo, they've broken the world transfer record

And Real Madrid did all the purchases they did this season except perhaps instead of CR9 they buy Robinho for 20 million (coz Man City found out Robinho is gay and sold him for a discount).

Do you know what the record fee Sacchi spent was ? 6 million for Ruud Guulit. Even adjusted for inflation I doubt it would cross 25 million euros.

You can argue Capello and Lentini but Lentini's price of 13 million, would be around 40 million today. A large sum but not inordinate.

Here's the breakdown.:

WENGER:
(Year - Expense/Income)


2004/05 - £1,000,000 / £2,600,000
2005/06 - £32,350,000 / £13,700,000
2006/07 - £11,900,000 / £27,600,000
2007/08 - £13,200,000 / £9,500,000

SAF:

2004/05 - £20,000,000 / £3,850,000
2005/06 - £17,500,000 / £6,500,000
2006/07 - £35,600,000 / £15,200,000


Benitez:

2004/05 - £25,550,000 / £10,500,000
2005/06 - £36,900,000 / £9,500,000
2006/07 - £44,800,000 / £13,630,000
2007/08 - £22,500,000 / £19,900,000

MoN:

2006/07 - £24,650,000 / £3,050,000
2007/08 - £8,750,000 / £10,000,000
(He spent 44 MM the next season)

Mourinho:
2004/05 - £56,850,000 / £12,700,000
2005/06 - £92,400,000 / £20,800,000
2006/07 - £7,000,000 / £15,800,000
2007/08 - £13,500,000 / £6,000,000



I'll break it down even further. This is from an old Times article:

Manchester United’s total spending since the 2004-05 season : £116.1m

2007-08: £55 million

2006-07: £18.6m

2005-06: £17.5m

2004-05: £25m

Won: Premiership 1, Carling Cup 1



Chelsea’s total spending : £213.7m

2007-08: £0

2006-07: £66.3m

2005-06: £56.4m

2004-05: £91m

Won: Premiership 2, FA Cup 1, Carling Cup 2

[kurtsimonw]

I don't get this part.

I can argue that Mourinho had Cole, Terry, Lampard, Makalele at his disposal too. Maybe not CL material, but definitely good enough to win the league, which Mourinho did after spending some more.

There's a difference though. Inzaghi, Sheva, Nesta and Rui probably cost up near £75m for the 4. Terry was a youth player, Lampard cost £10m, Cole cost £10m and Makelele was a bit more expensive, but it still doesn't compare to £70m-odd.

And the transfer record has really no basis.

So suppose Milan paid 94 million euros to buy Ronaldo, they've broken the world transfer record

And Real Madrid did all the purchases they did this season except perhaps instead of CR9 they buy Robinho for 20 million (coz Man City found out Robinho is gay and sold him for a discount).

Do you know what the record fee Sacchi spent was ? 6 million for Ruud Guulit. Even adjusted for inflation I doubt it would cross 25 million euros.

Prices in football aren't relative to inflation, you know that. The top end is the top end, regardless. Breaking the World record for £1m in 1960 is no different that breaking the World reocrd for £6m in 1990, it's just what the top footballers cost. I will agree that there are some exceptions, like what Madrid did this year, that kind of spending goes way and above the norm and I highly doubt you'll see many transfers surpass the Zidane/Figo prices like that agin.



I'm not intending to be awkward, I'm just having a little trouble understand some of these figures.

WENGER:
(Year - Expense/Income)


2004/05 - £1,000,000 / £2,600,000
2005/06 - £32,350,000 / £13,700,000
2006/07 - £11,900,000 / £27,600,000
2007/08 - £13,200,000 / £9,500,000

SAF:

2004/05 - £20,000,000 / £3,850,000
2005/06 - £17,500,000 / £6,500,000
2006/07 - £35,600,000 / £15,200,000


Benitez:

2004/05 - £25,550,000 / £10,500,000
2005/06 - £36,900,000 / £9,500,000
2006/07 - £44,800,000 / £13,630,000
2007/08 - £22,500,000 / £19,900,000

MoN:

2006/07 - £24,650,000 / £3,050,000
2007/08 - £8,750,000 / £10,000,000
(He spent 44 MM the next season)

Mourinho:
2004/05 - £56,850,000 / £12,700,000
2005/06 - £92,400,000 / £20,800,000
2006/07 - £7,000,000 / £15,800,000
2007/08 - £13,500,000 / £6,000,000



I'll break it down even further. This is from an old Times article:

Manchester United’s total spending since the 2004-05 season : £116.1m

2007-08: £55 million

2006-07: £18.6m

2005-06: £17.5m

2004-05: £25m

Won: Premiership 1, Carling Cup 1



Chelsea’s total spending : £213.7m

2007-08: £0

2006-07: £66.3m

2005-06: £56.4m

2004-05: £91m

Won: Premiership 2, FA Cup 1, Carling Cup 2

There's no way in hell Villa spent near £25m in MONs first season, no way. He joined the club very very late and only signed Petrov and Maloney on fees, the rest were free transfers. The combined fees for the 2 were only around £8m. We then signed Carew in swap with Baros and Young for £9.5m, so that works out to around £17m or so.

Onto Chelsea. In the Jose breakdown, you have him spending £92m and selling £20m worth, which would come to £72, yet on your 'further breakdown', the total spending for that year is £56m, how does that work out, or am I mising something?

=============================================================================

Overall, I do understand and agree with your point, I'm not suggesting Jose hasn't been given tonnes of money. But re-read my next to last paragraph on my previous post and you'll see what I mean. Everyone knows Jose won alot at Chelsea, but we know he was given the funds to do so too. I will add that on a spend-per-year basis, Ranieri spent more and won nothing, while Jose won an average of 2 trophies per season, so it shows it wasn't only the money, otherwise Ranieri would have won at least something. But I go back to his time at Porto, I doubt we'll see a CLass B team winning the European Cup anytime soon, UEFA thought they'd stopped that happening when they introduced the Champions League, but you can't stop Jose. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[dst]

I agree with Kurt on the money issue, it does not guarantee success. I think Mourinho did an amazing job at Chelsea. His CL victory with Porto though is in my view the fluke of the century. La Coruna's and Monaco's achievements that season were bigger. (edit: I mean harder to achieve and more important but in the end it's of course the title that matters)

[kurtsimonw]

I agree with Kurt on the money issue, it does not guarantee success. I think Mourinho did an amazing job at Chelsea. His CL victory with Porto though is in my view the fluke of the century. La Coruna's and Monaco's achievements that season were bigger. (edit: I mean harder to achieve and more important but in the end it's of course the title that matters)

You know I don't agree. I know Deportivo and Monaco beat some good team, but it's not like Jose had it easy. They did beat United, ironically they knocked out both Deportivo and Monaco too. I did feel sorry for Monaco that year though, after beating Chelsea and Madrid in the past 2 rounds, I thought it was going to be 'easy' for them in the Final.

[Bluesummers]

Real Madrid are determined not to let Cristiano Ronaldo travel to Portugal to link up with his international team-mates for their World Cup play-off and under FIFA regulations appear to be within their rights to do so, as long as there is an agreement.

Ronaldo's last foray with the international side last month resulted in him aggravating an ankle injury against Hungary which has resulted in him missing the last seven games for Real, having already missed the defeat to Sevilla immediately prior to Portugal's final group qualifiers.

Since then the 24-year-old's injury has shown little sign of improvement and Madrid sought the advice of specialist Dutch surgeon Niek Van Dijk, who has advised further rest and a recovery program to heal the injury, something Madrid seem unwilling to risk by allowing their prize asset return to the international fold.

Today they have insisted that the Portugal captain will not travel to the national team's training camp in Obidos and a FIFA regulation on the matter stipulates that the player does not have to leave, Madrid, if he wishes.

Article 29, Annex I, Paragraph 4 of the FIFA Regulations on the Status and Transfer of Players reads as follows:

"A player who due to injury or illness is unable to comply with a call-up from the association that he is eligible to represent on the basis of his nationality shall, if the association so requires, agree to undergo a medical examination by a doctor of that association’s choice. If the player so wishes, such medical examination shall take place on the territory of the association at which he is registered [in Ronaldo's case, in Madrid]."

goal.com

what do you think of this guys, does madrid have the rights to stop him from going to the national team?

[Tennie]

I think it's tacky. That said, if a Portugal NT doctor does go to Madrid and examines him and says he's fit to go and he still doesn't go, he'll face sanctions (ie, a ban). Madrid don't want to risk him getting hurt - and a player being too hurt to play for his NT isn't exactly uncommon among other teams (MU for example). Thing is, I don't think the Portuguese FA and their coach are willing to really play hardball. My guess is they'll back down (and I would be unsurprised if they were to get a nice cash gift from Florentino Perez for doing so).

Course, the joke'll be on them if they do this and Portugal don't qualify for the World Cup -- in which case they'll probably lose an awful lot on Cristiano Ronaldo jersey sales.

[kurtsimonw]

I've always wondered, how will anyone know if he's injured? I have absoloutely zero knowledge on the medical system, do they have technology which can find muscle tear or bone damage now or similar? Otherwise what if the Portuguese FA just give him a medical and say he's fine, just so he can play?

[Tennie]

MRIs can show muscle tears, Kurt.

[dst]

OH MY GOD! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) It hurts when I look at it!

[mishie]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cry.gif) oh my lord...will he ever talk the same again lol

[Zed.D]

Ouch!! (IMG:http://www.pic4ever.com/images/flat.gif)

It must be worse than breaking your leg... (EDIT: I just said a stupid thing, didn't I?)





(How do you how it hurts btw? does that mean you just solved the mystery of your sex? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )

This post has been edited by Zed.D: Nov 13 2009, 09:28 PM

[mishie]

Ouch!! (IMG:http://www.pic4ever.com/images/flat.gif)

It must be worse than breaking your leg... (EDIT: I just said a stupid thing, didn't I?)





(How do you how it hurts btw? does that mean you just solved the mystery of your sex? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )

good work inspector ZED!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Bluesummers]

INTER MARKET PLANS:

Inter Milan officials are planning for the January transfer market and this is what could happen :

- The Nerazzurri could sign Argentine central defender Nicolas Otamendi from Velez Sarsfield and Macedonian forward Goran Pandev from Lazio.

- Portuguese winger Ricardo Quaresma could be loaned to FC Porto and Honduran striker David Suazo could join AS Bari.

- Austrian forward Marko Arnautovic could be offloaded and return to Dutch clubTwente Enschede as he has failed to impress coach Jose Mourinho.

TMW

[Maestro10]

I've always wondered, how will anyone know if he's injured? I have absoloutely zero knowledge on the medical system, do they have technology which can find muscle tear or bone damage now or similar? Otherwise what if the Portuguese FA just give him a medical and say he's fine, just so he can play?

If you have muscle tear you would know it. If you don't, then you must be paralyzed.

[kurtsimonw]

If you have muscle tear you would know it. If you don't, then you must be paralyzed.

I know that, I'm not an idiot. But that's not what I asked. What if Madrid pay Ronaldo to say he's injured so he doesn't go and play with Portugal? Then do Portugal just have to take his word for it, even if he is actually 100% fine? That's why I wanted to know if there was a way to find out.

[dst]

I know that, I'm not an idiot.

I disagree.

[Jack Sparrow]

All the time or some of the time? Either way... +1.

[MizNelson]

Is it me, or are a lot of people PMSing on here lately? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[kurtsimonw]

I disagree.

All the time or some of the time? Either way... +1.

(IMG:http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/uncyclopedia/images/1/1c/Go_fuck_yourself.png)

Is it me, or are a lot of people PMSing on here lately? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

No, it's just you.

You can't blame me, you practically walked right into that one.

[dst]

Not a big enough name and not playing in a big enough team for people to care (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) but another player has suffered a life-ending heart-attack...

here

what the **** is going on!?!? why does this keep on happening and why doesn't anybody do anything?????

[Zed.D]

What do you mean?... (IMG:http://www.pic4ever.com/images/hanghead.gif) it's always sad/shocking to hear such news.

RIP.

[MizNelson]

A heart attack at 31? That's just insane. Is this a common problem among Latino men? I mean, Antonio Puerta wasn't even thirty when he died.

[Zed.D]

A heart attack at 31? That's just insane. Is this a common problem among Latino men? I mean, Antonio Puerta wasn't even thirty when he died.

Exactly what I wanted to say. apparently de la Red has a similar problem...

[kurtsimonw]

what the **** is going on!?!? why does this keep on happening and why doesn't anybody do anything?????

I agree, somebody should do something. It's crazy that nobody can stop people dying yet, WTF are medical scientists doing exactly!?

On a serious note, very sad news. This shouldn't be happening. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[Habitant]

OH MY GOD! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) It hurts when I look at it!

the best part is that fruit hernandes rolls around like he was hurt just as bad... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[kurtsimonw]

Sports Personality of the Year was won by Ryan Giggs.

I actually thought this was usually given to quite a deserving person. No offense to Giggs, I like him, but he started 12 games for United in the league last season and beats out World Champions like Jenson Button and David Haye? How fucking stupid. Lifetime achievment, sure, he's one of the most decorated players ever, but this is stupid!

I should just be thankful that Andy Murray didn't get it I suppose.

This post has been edited by kurtsimonw: Dec 14 2009, 01:12 AM

[kurtsimonw]

FIFpro World XI

Casillas

Alves
Vidic
Terry
Evra

Gerrard
Iniesta
Xavi

Messi
Torres
Ronaldo

[Zed.D]

No Puyol? bah.

[kurtsimonw]

My first thoughts when I saw it, also.

[kurtsimonw]

Paraguay striker and Sunderland transfer target Salvador Cabanas is fighting for his life in hospital today after he was shot in the head early this morning.

Mirror

[Tennie]

I just posted the NY Times version of the story in the world cup thread since Cabanas is a big part of Paraguay's team.

Terribly, terribly sad. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[kurtsimonw]

Tommy Mooney was on Soccer AM this morning talking about his brief stay in Spain. He scored and smashed his nose in the process so had to go off and in the time he was off the opposition scored. When he came back on he asked the ref why his goal was disallowed and the ref said "You English, all you do is foul", then when he said something back to the ref he was sent off!

I can see why very few of our players ever go abroad if that's their treatment!

[Jack Sparrow]

Tommy Mooney was on Soccer AM this morning talking about his brief stay in Spain. He scored and smashed his nose in the process so had to go off and in the time he was off the opposition scored. When he came back on he asked the ref why his goal was disallowed and the ref said "You English, all you do is foul", then when he said something back to the ref he was sent off!

I can see why very few of our players ever go abroad if that's their treatment!

Now that's the catch ainnit?

I don't think your friend Mooney said something along the lines of , 'Oh I beg your pardon good sir, but I must insist you take that last statement back!'. In fact he probably went along the lines of what his surname seems to suggest.

[I_Rossoneri]

Tommy Mooney was on Soccer AM this morning talking about his brief stay in Spain. He scored and smashed his nose in the process so had to go off and in the time he was off the opposition scored. When he came back on he asked the ref why his goal was disallowed and the ref said "You English, all you do is foul", then when he said something back to the ref he was sent off!

I can see why very few of our players ever go abroad if that's their treatment!

Perhaps they don't go abroad because they aren't good enough? Saying they don't go because of the treatment one player received in one game doesn't necessarily mean anything IMO.

[Zed.D]

Now that's the catch ainnit?

I don't think your friend Mooney said something along the lines of , 'Oh I beg your pardon good sir, but I must insist you take that last statement back!'. In fact he probably went along the lines of what his surname seems to suggest.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[kurtsimonw]

Now that's the catch ainnit?

I don't think your friend Mooney said something along the lines of , 'Oh I beg your pardon good sir, but I must insist you take that last statement back!'. In fact he probably went along the lines of what his surname seems to suggest.

I agree he most certainly didn't say anything polite to the ref, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't either if my goals were disallowed due to my nationality. Mooney is far from 'my friend' either, I'd disallow all of his goals just for being him.

Perhaps they don't go abroad because they aren't good enough? Saying they don't go because of the treatment one player received in one game doesn't necessarily mean anything IMO.

I think you'd be surprised at how big a factor nationality is. I also disagree with the 'good enough' claim, I hardly think Rooney plays in England because he isn't good enough to play for Malaga.

This post has been edited by kurtsimonw: Feb 24 2010, 08:11 PM

[Jack Sparrow]

I think you'd be surprised at how big a factor nationality is. I also disagree with the 'good enough' claim, I hardly think Rooney plays in England because he isn't good enough to play for Malaga.

That's a weird argument. Doesn't make much sense...if you bring the best players into it. I could conversely argue Zidane never played in England therefore none of the clubs in England are good enough for Zidane.

[kurtsimonw]

That's a weird argument. Doesn't make much sense...if you bring the best players into it. I could conversely argue Zidane never played in England therefore none of the clubs in England are good enough for Zidane.

It's not my arguement, it's what I_Ross was suggesting. I think it's ridiculous, hencemy Rooney-Malaga comment.

[Jack Sparrow]

Well maybe they're not good enough could be replaced by they're not suited to.

Pennant sucks @$$ in Spain, yet he was considered average-above average in England. Sheva was God in Italy, yet he flopped miserably in England.

Santiago Munez needed asthma treatments and lots of gym work before he could even complete 90 minutes for Newcastle. He was so good in fact that they sold him to Madrid along with Gavin Harris.


Secondly, you claimed you would badmouth the ref if your goals were disallowed due to nationality....which is implying that the Spaniard never gets a goal disallowed in the La Liga. Not true.

The ref says (allegedly) "You English, all you do is foul!"...which means the goal was disallowed coz he fouled and not coz he was English. And considering the amount of English a Spaniard (or Spanish an Englishman) would know a, I can probably imagine that when he said, "You English", he meant "You Englishman".

Besides from your opinion on Mooney, I don't think he's the type whose jersey is pristine clean when he comes off the field.

Lastly, Owen and BEcks...two players who didn't have any problems with the refs in England.

[kurtsimonw]

Becks had problems wioth refs in Spain. I think the refs are the main reason to be honest, but not because they dislike a particular nationality. It's always why I don't think England will win the World Cup in my life time, we're allowed to get away with more in terms of physicality over here than we would elsewhere.

[Zed.D]

The ref says (allegedly) "You English, all you do is foul!"...which means the goal was disallowed coz he fouled and not coz he was English. And considering the amount of English a Spaniard (or Spanish an Englishman) would know a, I can probably imagine that when he said, "You English", he meant "You Englishman".

Exactly what I thought.
It's "you [or 'hey'] Englishman! all you do is foul". I can imagine it being said in a friendly way even.

This post has been edited by Zed.D: Feb 25 2010, 06:16 PM

[kurtsimonw]

Anybody know what the deal is with Juve's attendances? I was looking at some attendance figues and such and I noticed they have a lower average attendance than sha and Hull!? There's some commentary on FIFA10 that suggests the reason the fans don't go is because the stadium is horrible or something, but I just can't see that being the reason. Anyone know why? Just over 20k average is horrible for a regular CL team.

[Jack Sparrow]

Their performance for one. Second, they're not playing at their old stadium. It's some temporary arrangement till the new one comes up.

[kurtsimonw]

Their performance for one. Second, they're not playing at their old stadium. It's some temporary arrangement till the new one comes up.

Ah that makes sense. Though their poor attendance figures seem to go back a few years, even when they were in the SDA and winning titles.

[Locke Lamora]

Juventus aren't the "team" of Turin. That's Torino. Juve have more supporters in the south of Italy, I think they actually had more fans at Palermo-Juventus than Juventus-Palermo this season, or something like that.

[Fishdoll]

The Olimpico in Turin is a small stadium and seats...prolly not more than 30k tops anyway. And, well, what Jack said. They've got more fans outside Turin than inside.

[Locke Lamora]

The Olimpico in Turin is a small stadium and seats...prolly not more than 30k tops anyway. And, well, what Jack said. They've got more fans outside Turin than inside.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

[Fishdoll]

Oops? I'm a hungover fish, sorry Locke! Went out nightclubbing last night and only had time for a nap in my bowl before the game!

[Jack Sparrow]

OOOOOOHHH!! Was the guy cute? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Fishdoll]

Sorry to disappoint you Jack, but I don't swim that way. You're mistaking me for dst. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[dst]

Zidane and Enzo Francescoli are going to star in a new football-related reality show called Football Cracks... what the f___?

[Zed.D]

LOL, seriously, wtf?

[dst]

and you guys complain about our forwards... see this before you talk again!

[servbot]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Safe to say I would even score there, and I've never played ANY organized football!

[kurtsimonw]

and you guys complain about our forwards... see this before you talk again!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

It annoys me when I see things like that. That guy probably has an easy life with the money he makes from football yet he can't even score that..

[kurtsimonw]

"Brazilian legend Pele, often considered the best player in football history, has offered a retort to those hailing Barcelona forward Lionel Messi as the greatest star to have played the game. The three-time World Cup winner says people should only start drawing comparisons when Messi has equalled his goal tally of over 1,000 career goals. The Argentine took his senior career tally to 133 goals, which includes 42 this season for club and country, with a goal against Real Madrid on Saturday."

(No link, read it in the Daily Mail today)

The guy is an idiot. I think it's hilarious that he actually believes he's that good anyway. I doubt he would make my top 1,000 list. He played in a **** league and played International football at a time where all but about 10 countries were still at ametuer level. I think Jack could have scored 1,000 goals in the games Pele played!

I think he's just annoyed that an Argie at the age of 22 is better than he ever was. To say a player has to score 1,000 goals to be as good as him is stupid. Romario has done that anyway, while actually playing against opposition that play football.

[Jack Sparrow]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

I think Pele in Brazil was pretty much like Messi in Barca. It was such a freakishly good team. And you're just saying he's shite, since there's not a lot of videos available of him. But pundits don't just hype up a man for nothing.

Of course the fact that he's mostly mouthing crap doesn't help his case.

[kurtsimonw]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

I think Pele in Brazil was pretty much like Messi in Barca. It was such a freakishly good team. And you're just saying he's shite, since there's not a lot of videos available of him. But pundits don't just hype up a man for nothing.

Of course the fact that he's mostly mouthing crap doesn't help his case.

Nout to do with lack of videos. There's not an awful amount of videos of any pre-late 80s, but I'll still say Maradona or whoever else is great. It's the fact that he never proved his skills against anyone.

Some very average footballer could drop a few leagues, bang in the goals for fun year after year and then say he thinks he's the best ever because nobody scores at the rate he does. No different to what Pele did.

[dst]

Kurt man... I hate Pele as much as the next guy... but he can't have been that bad... you've gone extremely biased here.

[kurtsimonw]

Kurt man... I hate Pele as much as the next guy... but he can't have been that bad... you've gone extremely biased here.

He can't have been anywhere near as good as people make out either. He is by far the most overrated sportsperson of all-time.

[Locke Lamora]

He can't have been anywhere near as good as people make out either. He is by far the most overrated sportsperson of all-time.

I love you Kurt. I don't always show it but I really do.

Anyway, I can actually think of quite a number of players who I seriously believe were better than Pele... Maradona, Messi, Di Stefano, Cruyff, Baggio, Van Basten, Bergkamp and Batistuta for starters.

[Danny]

Nout to do with lack of videos. There's not an awful amount of videos of any pre-late 80s, but I'll still say Maradona or whoever else is great. It's the fact that he never proved his skills against anyone.

Winning the world cup 3 times isn't proving your skills?

Some very average footballer could drop a few leagues, bang in the goals for fun year after year and then say he thinks he's the best ever because nobody scores at the rate he does. No different to what Pele did.

Funny how no one else ever has. Apart from Ibrahimovic.

Your view is extraordinary.

Mind you, I always considered Zidane totally over rated so my view was in the minority as well.

So I know how you feel.

[Danny]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

I think Pele in Brazil was pretty much like Messi in Barca. It was such a freakishly good team. And you're just saying he's shite, since there's not a lot of videos available of him. But pundits don't just hype up a man for nothing.

Of course the fact that he's mostly mouthing crap doesn't help his case.

Yeah, Pele's detractors, such as Kurt, see nothing but the absolute garbage the man comes out with and automatically, and understandably stigmatise him against it as a result.

Pele is not a smart cookie, he included Diouff in his top 100 players of all time ffs.

But he was a special player and there's good reasons it's him and Maradona who vie for best ever rather than Cruyff and Maradona, or Van Basten and Maradona.

[Jack Sparrow]

I also don't think a cr@p league would throw up players like Jairzinho, Tostao, Garrincha etc. It just doesn't happen.

[Locke Lamora]

I also don't think a cr@p league would throw up players like Jairzinho, Tostao, Garrincha etc. It just doesn't happen.

And what is the one thing they all have in common?

[Jack Sparrow]

They're all football frickin legends. That's what they have in common. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Locke Lamora]

They're all football frickin legends. That's what they have in common. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

That too. But theres another thing. I'll give you a hint... position.

[Jack Sparrow]

Brazil has always been known for it's offensive players. I'll give you Carlos Alberto if you demand it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Even now little has changed. Ronaldinho, Kaka, Robinho, Maicon.

It's the way the country's mindset is. As a kid learning to play football,if you're in a society worshipping it's attackers an attacker is what you want to be. Esp. since a large majority of Brazillian players hone their skills on the street and only later in an academy.

[Locke Lamora]

Exactly my point. And won't you agree that in a country with that sort of mindset, it will be easier for a striker to look far better than he really is than it would in, say, Serie A.

[kurtsimonw]

Anyway, I can actually think of quite a number of players who I seriously believe were better than Pele... Maradona, Messi, Di Stefano, Cruyff, Baggio, Van Basten, Bergkamp and Batistuta for starters.

Agreed.

I love you Kurt. I don't always show it but I really do.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Winning the world cup 3 times isn't proving your skills?

Mind you, I always considered Zidane totally over rated so my view was in the minority as well.

So I know how you feel.

I've gone over it a few times on here. I've watched tape and whatnot to form an opinion of International football before the mid/late-70s. I'd say the majority was ametuer, the defending was totally embarassing. Obviously Brazil had to beat other decent countries, but there were so few. It was the same dozen teams reaching the last 4 everytime the competition was played and the rest of the games were pretty much blowouts. I'm not taking away the acheivment at all, I just think scoring goals was easy, even the top nations didn't have great defenses, so a team like Brazil whod id have good attacking players found it easy.

As for his club record, like I said, anyone could go play in a crap league and bang in 1,000 goals in a 25 year period. But the fact is, they don't want to, they have ambition to play in the top leagues. Now whether Pele was told he couldn't leave Brazil or not is irrelevant, the fact is he didn't/

I think Zidane is one of the best ever, but it's just an opinion, there's no fact when it comes to judging a player so while you may be in the minority, you're just as correct as we are really.

[Jack Sparrow]

Exactly my point. And won't you agree that in a country with that sort of mindset, it will be easier for a striker to look far better than he really is than it would in, say, Serie A.

Well for one, all the players I've mentioned were proven at the world cup. All of them easily beat defences of other countries as well. So it's not a pan-Brazilian phenomenon.

Secondly, even if it was just Brazil, there would still be a bunch of strikers scoring buckets of goals by your logic. And yet only these people stand out. Not to mention some of their goals are known for being simply brilliant pieces of teamwork and skill. Pele's got a few awards for most beautiful goal scored as well.

That Guti no-look backheel which people are harping about..these blokes used to do it all the time.


(IMG:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ad/Jairscoreuruguay3-final.jpg)

Brazil vs Uruguay 1970.

(IMG:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/1d/Finalgoal4brazil70.jpg)

Brazil vs Italy 1970..

In a time when the grounds were not smooth as silk, and boots and jerseys didn't have 1030138012380129329743 billion dollars of research. When footballers were not the medical royalty of today, it's even more appreciable I think.

[kurtsimonw]

The point is, Jack, that the defenses of those days were probably no better than what you'd see at any average club. You criticise Spanish defenses now, but even average sides now are better than some of the best now. It's understandable given the training they're allowed, but it's still the case in my opinion.

[dst]

You guys should relax... and laugh at this guy!

[kurtsimonw]

That's just so awful.