[Tennie]

Kurt, Gattuso may not be the best passer of the ball, but he's damn good at tackling and winning balls off of other guys and in defending opposing danger men out of the game. You can't even compare his ability to do what he does to the English DMs like Hargreaves. Owen's good but Gattuso is a hell of a lot better.

You do need DMs in midfield, after all. Skill -- the ability to accurately pass the ball, to win the ball off of an opponent, to shut the opponent down, to create scoring opportunities, to save shots on goal or to put the ball in the net -- should absolutely come into it. Because it's skill that's going to win games in the long run. And that, I contend, is where the English NT as a whole is lacking.

Are there good players in the English NT? Yes, absolutely. Are any of them world-class? By my definition, no, with the possible exception of Beckham. I cannot honestly name any other English player who can consistently come in and change the course of a game. When Rooney can perform to the same sort of degree as an Inzaghi or a Trezeguet, then yes him too.

As for the difference between Italian and English defense...well, I think that Italian defense is on a much higher level in terms of training and individual skill than the English defense. Terry and Ferdinand are not at the same level as Italian CBs - even if you discount the aging trio of Cannavaro, Nesta, and Matrix - I still think that Barzagli and Chiellini are more skilled.

[kurtsimonw]

Are there good players in the English NT? Yes, absolutely. Are any of them world-class? By my definition, no, with the possible exception of Beckham.

Terry and Ferdinand are not at the same level as Italian CBs - I still think that Barzagli and Chiellini are more skilled.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree in a big way on those.

[Tennie]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree in a big way on those.

Fair enough. I didn't think we would agree on this one, Kurt.

I do honestly think the technical skill thing is why England is suffering and will continue to suffer though. And fixing that is a long-term thing.

[Rossoneri7]

Obviously you believe the hype then?

Making QFs shows you're one of the best teams in the World (Around 5th-8th) when you're ranked 12th, like the England NT has been around that mark for a while now, ii's a good thing. Obviously failing to make this tournement is a bad thing. And the difference between us making the SF of the last two tournements has been penalties. If you're saying this team is a failure because they lose a lottery, then that's an outrageous thing to say, that has nothing to do with how good the team is.

Making the quarter finals as the farthest the English NT has been sure doesn't deserve the hype that we are being forced to swallow (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I'm saying this team is a failure because of the way it is run.

Look, you can huff and puff and assert whichever theory you see fit. All I'm saying is, the problem with the national team is clear (several of them which I have stated above ..) and it might not be the ONLY thing that the English nt suffer from.

p.s. I am not saying this because I have something against england nt or the players ... but i have always said there is something missing from that team. And after several failed attempts over the past decades, the team still fails to meet expectations.

[bigmacmtl]

I have to disagree with you there. Lampard is the most complete player we have. People tend to just agree with the media when it comes to Lampard as they love to hate him. The numbers for him last season showed why he was voted 2nd best player in the World not too long ago. He lead the team in tackles, crosses, pass completions among other things. Gerrard has the fortune of playing in a very average midfield with the likes of Pennant, Sissoko and others every week, which makes him look alot better. Lampard has to compete with the likes of Essien.

But 'skill' shouldn't come into it. Afterall, Italy won the World cup with De Rossi and Gatusso in the midfield.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'There's a massive difference between English defense and Italian defense'.

i agree with you on lamps, gerrard and lamps dont work well together so who gets blamed? lamps? (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) yet both are part of the problem.

de rossi wasnt a big part of italy's campaign tho, he played against ghana, played the first few minutes of the USA match and red carded and we dint see him till extra time in the final against france.

[Jack Sparrow]

kurt you're saying, that the team ranked 12th seems to be good enough to finish among the top 8.

You're looking at this the wrong way.

Look at your team.

Mid-Field: Steven, Frank(you've just called them complete footballers), and considered by the press and pundits as among the best midfielders in the world. (I think they couldn't tie a lace of Pirlo's boots, but to say I'm biased is an understatement). Owen Hargreaves, Carrick, Beckham, Joe Cole , SWP etc. If you look at it, on paper say, compare it to France's midfield. Or even Italy's. Ok Italy might be a bit too much. Take France. I don't see miles of difference, at least when it comes to club level. Or take the Dutch even?? Surely you outclass them right??

Defence: Terry, Ferdinand. Everyone claims yet again, these are the best CBs in the world. As left back you have Ashley Cole. As right back, you got
Richards or Neville. What now? On paper, you got something as good as Italy. Surely Matrix + 34 yo Cannavaro cannot be greater than the gr8 Terry and Ferdinand. And don't even compare Spain's pathetic excuse of a defence with yours. I REPEAT on paper.


Attack: Ok, here you might be outmanned, but surely not outclassed. Rooney, Defoe, Crouch, Bent(18 mill??) and Owen. Maybe not the best in class, but on paper, you should be better than say a Portugal.

The only area where you can say you lack world class is at GK. Doesn't affect Portugal or Argentina or France (now). Ok Robinson this season is a joke.


kurt, the point that for a 12th ranked team you're finishing in the top 8 of a tournament is moot.

The point is that with players who are in the top 10 of the world, in almost every department, that you fall way behind to teams in matches AND in rankings.

for eg. Greece, Czech Republic, Croatia, Portugal, Netherlands is what you should wonder .

I mean honestly a team with Simic, is better than a team with Terry? Or are you saying Rooney has not answer to Simic.

This is why R7 and Tennie and now myself are bringing up points. What are the reasons.

Either like the 10ster says, your world class players are not truly world class, and lack technique.

Or like the Sheikh Daddy says, something is missing in your team, a spark, or maybe even genuine commitment. Something all your players are hotly denying.

The coach?? Don't really think so. We all agree Domenech is an idiot. Everyone here says my main man MvB is an inexperienced dork (did you know that dork means a whale's male genital...so anytime u call a guy a dork, you're just calling him a big pr!ck!! (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) -> Think about it).


Maybe Scolari is a point. But for heaven's sake, your team is so much better than theirs. They got Cristiano Ronaldo, Nani and Deco. Of these, Ronaldo might be the one guy for whom the English midfield don't have an equal.

Their defence?? Puhleeze. Their attack?? Who Nuno Gomes or Pauletta. Even the Iberian will admit, his beloved Portugal on paper don't have the team to compare with Ingerlund.

Same is the case with Netherlands. So then why kurt? Why is England so below in 12th.


It's not that they're overperforming by being in 12th and making the QFs. It's that they've been underperforming for quite a while now by remaining in 12th, and with the team they got, they should go out to championship winners. Not some other also rans in the competition.


I hope I wasn't too harsh. It's just that at the moment, your cricket team (which sucks) still gives pound for pound more fight than your hyped up football team.

And don't even go into hype and media pressure.. Let's not go there. I was talking with a guy from Brazil.

What happens in Brazil and Argentina, that's hype! That's media and fan pressure. England cannot hide behind this as an excuse for poor performance.

[kurtsimonw]

I do agree with some of what you're saying.

Like you said, goalkeeping is our worst position. Look at the games we lost in qualifying.

@ Croatia: Robinson completey misses the ball - They win 2-0.
@ Russia: Robinson parries the ball right in front of the Russian striker, who has an open goal.
vs Croatia: Carson allows the ball to bounce in front og him and doesn't react quickly enough - It goes in.

I must honestly say I can't recall many times where we've lost a game in moral circumstances. It's our keeper that hurts us. We lose so many games because of them, just look at our game vs germany, another Robinson howler. The last time we exited a competition without the need of penalties? A Seaman howler.

Obviously this isn't ALL of our problems, just part of it.

The keepers had nothing to do with our 0-0 draws with Israel or Macedonia, with no disrespect intended, they're games we should be winning. The problem there? I just don't know. We can't seem to break teams down, I don't know what that is because of. I think some of the players can be accused of not giving 100% effort. I'm not sure why this is, maybe some of them are sick of being bood by their own 'fans', others may be more concerned about their next club match. But it's clearly evident with some of them.

I think we have a few World class players. Gerrard and Lampard is the obvious cases. Drogba was useless for Chelsea for the first 18 months, Lampard carried them in an attacking sense. Gerrard took Liverpool to 2 CL Finals, when in m opinion, the rest of their squad has been very average in recent years. The only other players I would put in the World Class category would be JT, Beckham and Rooney. But they have their flaws. JT and Rooney have injury problems, they're not always going to be fit. Beckham, while having superb set-peice and crossing ability, can no longer run, at all. I wouldn't consider any of our other players World Class, maybe very good, but not the very best the World has to offer.

So there's my reasons.
Kepeers, commitment and not enough World Class players. Agree or disagree, that's just my opinion.

As for comparing us to other nations. I believe Germany, Italy, France, Portugal, Holland, Brazil and Argentina are equal to/better than we are. Every other team we play, we should draw/beat!

P.S. Cricket team!? They're a joke! At the moment we have Lewis Hamilton, Ricky Hatton and the Rugby team that're some of the best in the World. That's about it thoguh. (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

This post has been edited by kurtsimonw: Nov 24 2007, 09:53 PM

[Jack Sparrow]

And Andy Flintoff. (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/king.gif)

I hate him but he's still ur best bet.

[kurtsimonw]

Mourinho ready to talk to England

Mourinho has been out of work since leaving Chelsea in September
Former Chelsea boss Jose Mourinho has expressed a cautious interest in taking the vacant England manager's job.

The 44-year-old, who left Chelsea in September, said he would be happy to talk to the Football Association.

"You will have to speak to the FA to see if they are interested in offering me the job," he told The Sun newspaper.

"I cannot say what I think until they say they are interested. Tell the FA to come and get me. We will have to wait and see, but I rule nothing out."

BBC

The title is a little misleading, he's hardly asking for the job.

If the FA offer it to him, I think he may take it, if he's not their first choice 1) Every member of the FA should get fired and 2) It will be our loss.

[dst]

1) Every member of the FA should get fired

(IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) By whom?? (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Rossoneri7]

‘English Mentality Has To Change’, Warns Adams


Arsenal legend Tony Adams has been around the block enough times to know that pure bad luck can’t account for England’s 41 years of hurt on the international football stage.


The former Three Lions defender, who now has aspirations of managing himself, revealed that he’s had some real eye-openers while in the company of continental coaches.

“Two years ago I was hurt at the way they thought of us — they were laughing at us. “The Dutch coaches looked at us as if we just weren’t very good.

“I travelled around and spent two weeks with Fabio Capello. The only response I got was that they didn’t value us that much, and that technically or tactically we weren’t clued up,” said Adams, who is now the understudy of Harry Redknapp at Portsmouth.

“They loved our spirit. Oh yeah, they wanted that,” he added, “And if we get our act together we have got one hell of a country here.

“But players in Europe look upon their coaches like gods, saying ‘teach me, teach me’. “I’m not so sure we do that in our culture. Coaches are seen often as someone to poke fun at, who gets the balls out and puts out the cones.” 

Finally, Adams admitted that he would relish the opportunity to coach England in the future and came up with a novel - though tongue in cheek - plan to ensure that the country has a brigter footballing future.

“It should be the pinnacle. I would love the job, not today though.”

“But don’t pay the next England coach £4million a year, get 40 coaches on £100,000 a year and send them into the regions.” 

Goal.com



I wouldn't be surprised if the Engalnd players did think the coach of the NT was there just to bring out the cones and balls ... If Lampard and Gerrard are constantly being fielded, despite the results that Gerrard and Barry have drawn in .. Yeah, I guess Adams has a point there (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)


Sad, but true ... I hope the next coach drills the players to the ground. Benches the the ones who are too hyped up to play and shows the players how to play on the highest level, in case they forget !

[misha]

At least Mourinho will provide some entertainment to the job. Everyone would be waiting for the press conferences. I wonder if can top the eggs speach...

[kurtsimonw]

Tony Adams has no idea what he's talking about when it comes to players and their managers.

I think people look too much into technical ability, too. I really don't feel England, Germany or many eastern European teams play like that at all. To me they play a quicker tempo of football and don't let their opponents settle down, I think it does make a difference that players from those nations aren't "one job" players.

Mourinho seemed to do well enough at Chelsea with a bunch of talentless English players, hopefully he can do the same with the NT where he'll have even more useless players to work with. (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[Rossoneri7]

Tony Adams has no idea what he's talking about when it comes to players and their managers.

How do you know he has no idea what he's talking about ?! (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) .... Maybe because he doesn't hype the NT up, like the rest ?! (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I think people look too much into technical ability, too. I really don't feel England, Germany or many eastern European teams play like that at all. To me they play a quicker tempo of football and don't let their opponents settle down, I think it does make a difference that players from those nations aren't "one job" players.

The game has developed since the 50s Kurt ... Hell, no one can play a quicker tempo than Brazil, still they stand alone in the technical aspect .. So I don't see ur point here ... and one job players are usually called 'professional footballers' (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Mourinho seemed to do well enough at Chelsea with a bunch of talentless English players, hopefully he can do the same with the NT where he'll have even more useless players to work with.  (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Well, out of the useless English footballers, he had Terry and Lampard as key players for him .. Joe Cole and SWP played nearly every two games, so .. And most notably, Mourinho would look outside of England for players ..

I don't understand why you refer to them as useless, but if ur gonna go with it, then so am I (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

[kurtsimonw]

How do you know he has no idea what he's talking about ?! (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) .... Maybe because he doesn't hype the NT up, like the rest ?! (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)   (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

It has nothing to do with hyping them up. He tends to think English players have a lack of respect for their managers. When in reality nobody respected and looked upto Jose more than JT and Lampard. Uniteds players (Neville, Scholes, Rooney, Hargeaves, Carrick included) see SAF as some sort of God, and rightfully so.

The game has developed since the 50s Kurt ... Hell, no one can play a quicker tempo than Brazil, still they stand alone in the technical aspect .. So I don't see ur point here ... and one job players are usually called 'professional footballers' (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Playing a quick tempo isn't just what you do with the ball, but what you do off it. They don't close players down when not in posession, they back off and let their opponents play.

Since we're talking about football, I think they can all be considered professional footballers, I just don't think you understood what I was saying at all. What I mean by a 'one job' player is like Ronaldinho or Emerson. They do one job, that's it. Ronaldinho can't defend, Emerson can't attack and that's a difference I find between some nations and the likes of England and Germany. Ballack can attack AND defend, as can Gerrard.

Well, out of the useless English footballers, he had Terry and Lampard as key players for him .. Joe Cole and SWP played nearly every two games, so .. And most notably, Mourinho would look outside of England for players ..

Glenn Johnson, Wayne Bridge, Ashley Cole, John Terry, Joe Cole, Shaun Wright-Philiips, Steve Sidwell, Frank Lampard - He had his fair share of English players in the team. Admittedly, only 5 of those got regular first team football at Chelsea.

I don't understand why you refer to them as useless, but if ur gonna go with it, then so am I (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Because that's what everybody else thinks of them?