[Danny]

You can't compare prices in England with prices in Italy. Kessie would have cost double that amount had he played for an English club.

Only three of the players they signed were from English clubs. Including Rooney. The other four+ were from European clubs.

I think we've spent wisely and on the right players. CL football is a realistic objective for next season.

PS: Calhanoglu cost 24M (including bonuses).

I just feel like we might be expecting more than our budget is actually able to deliver. We are improving on paper, but football isn't played on paper and I still think we're operating in the same midtable market Everton are.

I am happy with what we've done (mostly) but would still urge caution before expecting top four.

[Danny]

English football has been poor for a while now. I really think that Spain aside, Germany, England and Italy are equally competitive.

Competitive is not the same as 'good' though.

Hard to actually pick a good league now.

England has money but not the quality. Its standards are surprisingly low for all the cash swilling around. Only Chelsea and maybe Spurs look half decent but I'm not even sure about them.

Spain has the weirdness of the Barca and Real duo plus a mix between Valencia, Sevilla and Atleti to be the 'other two'. Them aside Spain is actually pretty weak.

Germany I know little of as I don't follow it but it does appear a one horse league every single season with Dortmund always miles behind in second while Wolsburg, Bayer etc compete for third.

Italy is a one horse race with Roma, Napoli Lazio and hopefully the Milan clubs fighting for second.

tbh I think France has come into the reckoning now. With Monaco and PSG firmly established champions while Nice have also emerged recently, adding to the traditional Lyon and Marseille pair, Ligue 1 is deserving now to be mentioned among the best, even if their co-efficient isn't quite there yet.

And everyone forgets Portugal - Porto and Benfica are UCL regulars while Sporting are always up there in the top three.

None of these stands out as Europe's best - I think for varying different qualities it's quite equal now between England, Spain, France, Germany, and Italy with Portugal close behind.

This post has been edited by Danny: Jul 11 2017, 01:38 AM

[han2503]

I'd like to put our transfer window in some perspective. We're all happy we're bringing in what seems like fine players at the level of budget we wanted.

Problem is, we are doing barely any better than Everton in terms of incoming and they've had the bonus of 100M for Lukaku.

I was looking at their window, and it makes for familiar reading:

(�)

Klassen - 23M
Pickford 25M
Keane 25M
Onyekuru 7M
Ramirez 5M
Rooney (undisclosed)

Approaching 100M and that excludes the frees.

Us:

Silva: 35M
Musacchio 15M
Rodriguez - 12M
Calhanoglu - 16M
Conte 20M
Kessie - 6M with 20M obligation to buy

About the same amount as Everton.

What I'm asking is are our expectations too high? We're in the same market as Everton and spending the same on a similar amount of players - is top four realistic? I'd be surprised if Everton expect top four.

I think the quality of players we brought in is definately better.

And I think it was x-off who mentioned that prices in England are higher, I'd got a step further and say that generally English clubs have to pay an inflated rate simply because everyone and their mother knows the kind of money EPL teams have due to their TV deals. Bottom-tier sides have the same spending power as Roma/Napoli/A. Madrid, etc. So of course every club that's dealing with them will ask for higher amounts


Also, you guys are discussin whether EPL is better/on par with Serie A. Even though I think the quality of football is slightly lacking, thus making it a not so great league, the competition for the top 4 spots is much more difficult than in Italy. Why? Because aside from Juve and maybe Napoli, the other sides tend to fluctuate a lot. Look at Roma, selling all their best players this summer. Sure they'll make a couple of shrewed deals but Salah and Rudiger were very important for them last season, especually Salah. Now if Manolas leaves, they'll be in a serious pickle (we should totally try to put in a cheeky 30m or so bid for him)

Like I've been saying for a while now, I don't think we have a sure thing squad for top 4 just YET. I still think we're missing 2/3 key signings. A regista definately being one of them (this Biglia saga is simply taking too long) and a striker/winger for sure. So I'm going to hold off my judgments/predictions for now as Fassone and Mirabelli have clearly said that there is more work to do in the transfer market.

But if we can get Biglia and Auba this month, I'd say we're definately getting one of those CL places

I thought someone might make that argument. Yet last season Italian clubs did better than English in Europe overall, Man Utd's UEL win aside.

English teams really aren't very good. Leicester won the league FFS! Conte's Chelsea are the closest they've had to a team who can realistically expect to win the league and seriously contend for UCL in the past five years.

I honestly wouldn't say the gap between say both leagues' top 4's is actually that wide overall.

I think football quality wise both leagues are on par, but competition wise, EPL is much more difficult as they have 6/7 teams who could realisticaly get into the CL places each season, and Everton aren't included in that list of 7. Which is why I think it's much more difficult for them than us. Plus I think our signings are much better than theirs

Only three of the players they signed were from English clubs. Including Rooney. The other four+ were from European clubs.



I just feel like we might be expecting more than our budget is actually able to deliver. We are improving on paper, but football isn't played on paper and I still think we're operating in the same midtable market Everton are.

I am happy with what we've done (mostly) but would still urge caution before expecting top four.

Like I said, I think clubs generally take advantage when EPL clubs come knocking because they known that they have the money

I agree with your last point, which is why I won't predict/judge anything for now. I'll wait until the management say that the mercato is closed for us before i decide if we are sure things for top 4.

[Fillipo Simone]

Agreed with Han here.

1) English clubs splash astonishing amounts on all players (EPL players and non-EPL players).

2) I think Everton overpaid; compared to the players they've signed, I think Milan had a much better campaign.

3) The competitive level of the EPL is far above all the mentioned leagues (bar Portugal I guess). I also think EPL is stronger the Serie A. Perhaps English teams got knocked out last season, but you still have ManUtd winning the UEFA Cup. When was the last time an Italian club stood in the final really? Must have been decades ago.

Also, Italian 3rd tier clubs usually (if not Roma) struggle already in the qualifying stage of CL, while English clubs usually make the cut. Next, if Serie A and EPL were really that close, we would have already had 4 not 3 CL teams.

But international success is only one aspect. You gotta realize that teams like Arsenal or Tottenham do tend to put more emphasis on domestic i.e. league success then taking real shots at the CL. I mean look at what the CL has been reduced to: Real, Barcelona and Bayern - over over and over again. With clubs like Atleti and Juve reaching highs but usually not being even close to gold.

4) Danny, you might be temporarily right with the French league. Last season (and only last season) was competitive and entertaining. Will Monaco and Nice be able to hold on? Will Lyon and Marseille pull forward? Hopefully.

But the Bundesliga surely isn't as good as the Primera or EPL. One positive side is that the Bundesliga is filled with talents and has usually fine management. But other aspects are mostly negative - traditional clubs being marginalized, Bayern dominating the league for years, etc. I get the argument that Leicester won the EPL, but just think of Hoffenheim and RB Leipzig. Not league winners but almost the same thing.

[Jack Sparrow]

I thought someone might make that argument. Yet last season Italian clubs did better than English in Europe overall, Man Utd's UEL win aside.

English teams really aren't very good. Leicester won the league FFS! Conte's Chelsea are the closest they've had to a team who can realistically expect to win the league and seriously contend for UCL in the past five years.

I honestly wouldn't say the gap between say both leagues' top 4's is actually that wide overall.

Well, I think English clubs in general have better purchasing power Italian ones. When we talk of the league (we're not talking of CL here), I feel the EPL is more competitive because it's not AS top heavy as the other leagues. And the midtable teams are not THAT MUCH weaker when you compare it to Serie A.

A club like Bournemouth for example has massive spending power compared to a club like say Sampdoria. Crystal Palace spends the kind of cash that could make Fiorentina weep.

And that's where things get tough. It is a LOT harder for a mid-table club to safeguard midtable and aspire to Europe in England. Whereas in Italy a little bit of cash injection as we've done is good enough. What does it tell you about EPL when Arsenal and Manchester United finish out of Champions League spots? So basically that's who Everton have to compete with just to make EL!! So you're right - Everton's transfers won't be good enough to guarantee them EL next season, but perhaps if they were playing in Italy it might have been enough? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

---

Now for Milan to win the league - that's a whole different ballgame. We won't win it with these transfers unless there's some sort of Juve collapse. But at the moment, especially considering our new signings are going to get maximum time to integrate - I feel we could compete with Roma for example. The key thing is that our competition is yet to make moves in the transfer market.

And of course, there's always one little club in Serie A that decides to be the surprise of the season. Atalanta last season, Sassuolo(?) before that.

[han2503]

Great points Fillipo

Well, I think English clubs in general have better purchasing power Italian ones. When we talk of the league (we're not talking of CL here), I feel the EPL is more competitive because it's not AS top heavy as the other leagues. And the midtable teams are not THAT MUCH weaker when you compare it to Serie A.

A club like Bournemouth for example has massive spending power compared to a club like say Sampdoria. Crystal Palace spends the kind of cash that could make Fiorentina weep.

And that's where things get tough. It is a LOT harder for a mid-table club to safeguard midtable and aspire to Europe in England. Whereas in Italy a little bit of cash injection as we've done is good enough. What does it tell you about EPL when Arsenal and Manchester United finish out of Champions League spots? So basically that's who Everton have to compete with just to make EL!! So you're right - Everton's transfers won't be good enough to guarantee them EL next season, but perhaps if they were playing in Italy it might have been enough? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

---

Now for Milan to win the league - that's a whole different ballgame. We won't win it with these transfers unless there's some sort of Juve collapse. But at the moment, especially considering our new signings are going to get maximum time to integrate - I feel we could compete with Roma for example. The key thing is that our competition is yet to make moves in the transfer market.

And of course, there's always one little club in Serie A that decides to be the surprise of the season. Atalanta last season, Sassuolo(?) before that.

I think this season we will see a gap being opened up between the top teams and the 2nd tier sides.

Atalanta will have been weakened considerably. Conti, Gagliardini, Kessie are all gone, arguably their best players from last season. Plus they have Europe to contend with as well which won't be easy for a club of their size to handle that kind of roster.

Lazio as well will take a hit this summer, they're losing Biglia and Keita most likely, could lose De Vrij as well. Sure they'll probably keep hold of Milinkovic Savic, but Biglia will be their biggest loss especially since he's also their captain. Fiorentina have also taken a massive his thi summer. Lost Gonzalo Rodriguez, Borja Valero, will most likely lose Bernardesci as well.

Roma have lost important players as well, but I think Monchi will make good moves to replace them. If they somehow lose Radja though, they might as well give up before the season starts

So to conclude, I think this season could be the perfect platform for us to launch the new squad. Not because I think we can compete with Juve and Napoli, but I definitely think that there's an opening in the league that us and Inter can exploit with the right moves

[Danny]

Tell me that WASN'T a good debate (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[d'Arc.LP]

James Rodriguez to Bayern is official, a 2 year loan for €10m with option to buy for €35m.

[milanbuf88]

James Rodriguez to Bayern is official, a 2 year loan for €10m with option to buy for €35m.

Wow. So cheap. I wish we had high jacked that somehow

[Jack Sparrow]

Wow. So cheap. I wish we had high jacked that somehow

I think the player's interests counted. Besides I think he prefers Ancelotti to Montella. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

[milanbuf88]

I think the player's interests counted. Besides I think he prefers Ancelotti to Montella. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Haha yea. Tough choice there (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

[CrazyMilanFan]

Gigi contract official

This post has been edited by CrazyMilanFan: Jul 11 2017, 05:43 PM

[X-Offender]

2) I think Everton overpaid; compared to the players they've signed, I think Milan had a much better campaign.

Exactly.

James Rodriguez to Bayern is official, a 2 year loan for €10m with option to buy for €35m.

I read it was 60M.

Gigi contract official

About time.

[Danny]

Ok so I had no idea we were playing tonight. God bless Flash scores. Won 4-0 v Lugano. Loads of our new signings started. From what little I saw on the weird simulation Bet365 do of the action, we looked decent.

[Rossoneri7]

With regards to Team B's increase in capital/equity, isn't it against FFP rules for the owners of clubs to inject cash into their clubs? I remember this was one of the excuses for why we wouldn't be spending big money back in the day, then we fell out of Europe and it wasn't used anymore

You almost have your finger on it Han, your mixing capital/equity invested with cash; equity is what you put into a company and expect a return% while cash lent could be for free or charged a %. In equity if the Company makes losses, the losses are cut off the equity. In cash lent, a liability on the Company and could be recalled at any time (or an agreed time which causes cashflow problems), unlike the equity.

For Team B capital/equity is to be invested. Equity and not cash lent to the club. Cash lent is against FFP rules as that is a liability on the club and not equity. However, for equity to be invested the owner expects a return. Milan if you recall is not exactly a profit generating business.

Silvio sold the club as a means to exit for himself and a means for new equity to be reinvested. FFP rules allow new owners to present a X-years plan to increase the club's revenues so it can sustain itself (or the team to be built). This is the aim of the new management to establish new income streams from Asia. If they fail, we would be in breech of FFP unless the owner puts up more capital/equity. With the previous owner, he did all he could for 30 years. He could not carry forward. So why invest more in Milan? Just sell the club, our situation today.

As for German teams, well first off they're very well run, unlike Italian teams, and I think this is just a general culture phenomenon that you can't really work around. As far as I know they also own their own stadiums, which as we can see has done a world of good for Juve. That being said, all the Bundesliga sides, aside from Bayern all generally sell their best players at some point as well, I think that helps in terms of keeping revenues high. The one great thing they've got going for them is that German talent atm is limitless add to that a good scouting network in other leagues and you have teams like Dortmund who always seem to have a group of players that will be going for astronomical fees. It's like they have an unending conveyor belt of talent. Let's not forget they've been selling their best players for years now, Sahin, Kagawa, Gundogan, Goetze, Lewandowski, Hummels, Mkhitaryan. Now it's Auba, Dembele, Weigl, Pulisic, Sokratis (nice one Galliani), Reus and Dahoud, who they brought in for peanuts and will most liekly sell for a huge fee in 2 to 3 years

Germany is the only economy in Europe pulling together the European block. Economically. By practice I came to learn their work ethic and perfection in implementation and final product presentation is second to none.

- This is not football related, but it gives a hint as to how the internal workings of the German clubs work.

- But the point I was trying to make on Germany is that European titles are not exclusive to just most EPL teams and Barca/Madrid.