[han2503]

I don't buy that first statement at all. There are plenty of players that establish themselves at the national level past age 24. Especially for a nation like Italy. You're moving the goal post. Where does the requirement he have a long NT career come into this? It's not unusual for a player to make a jump in quality or form in his early twenties. If he doesn't make the Euro or World Cup rosters then we'll know he's not living up to expectations. Until then you can't really argue that he's not part of the national team set up.

Maybe its just because I'm more knowledgeable on Italian players from watching Serie A but I definitely think that there are more of those midrange, decent but not great, and often flawed but still useful types of midfielders available for selection for Italy than France. That simply leaves more bodies for Bertolacci to compete with and he has to play to a higher level for attention. Perhaps some one else who watches more Ligue 1 can weigh in on that point.

He's 24 and has 2 caps for Italy, how can you argue that he is part of the set-up? I agree that it's all conjecture on our part, he could have a great season with us and be an automatic choice for Conte, but until now he simply hasn't been able to do that, even if there are a slew of average players in Italy to compete against for the other spots.

Toulalan, Cabella, Gourcuff, Mavuba, N'Zonzi, Grenier, Imbula, Sissoko, Coquelin, Flamini, Rabiot, Schneiderlin are all imo viable options that come in after those first choices. These are all off the top of my head, I'm sure there are more but since like you I'm not that familiar with Ligue 1 I can't name anymore

Maybe not all of them play the same role as Kondogbia, but they could just as easily take his place.

[milanbuf88]

He's 24 and has 2 caps for Italy, how can you argue that he is part of the set-up? I agree that it's all conjecture on our part, he could have a great season with us and be an automatic choice for Conte, but until now he simply hasn't been able to do that, even if there are a slew of average players in Italy to compete against for the other spots.

Toulalan, Cabella, Gourcuff, Mavuba, N'Zonzi, Grenier, Imbula, Sissoko, Coquelin, Flamini, Rabiot, Schneiderlin are all imo viable options that come in after those first choices. These are all off the top of my head, I'm sure there are more but since like you I'm not that familiar with Ligue 1 I can't name anymore

Maybe not all of them play the same role as Kondogbia, but they could just as easily take his place.

He's had three caps actually. In Italy's last 5 games he started three and was on the bench once. If we only look at the six euro qualifiers played so far he has started one and was on the bench twice. It is worth noting that his involvement was weighted toward the recent games and since he has been getting more time Aquilani hasn't even gotten to the bench. He's clearly in the set up now but he's not a critical component and he needs to impress over the next year to guarantee a spot on the final squad.

I'll concede that it looks like the midfields are fairly even talent wise but by no means does France have an embarrassment of riches and they aren't clearly superior to Italy in that department.

This post has been edited by milanbuf88: Aug 3 2015, 04:39 AM

[Fillipo Simone]

This is gone too far. You guys noticed how arbitrary your statements are?

Han, you made a selection of all kinds of players, from completely finished to completely green/not assessed ones. Comparing France and Italy is valid. The WC aside, Italy is doing considerably better in the past 10 years then France. I think up until now Italy had a better overall team and a better midfield.

Now, what will happen in the future is not so certain, because both sides have too many fresh faces that still need to be assessed properly. We really should cool off and let time take us into a certain direction here.

Other then that, football is no science. Han, you're constantly trying to take variables, trends, common occurrences and so on and turn them into hard facts. But it isn't working that way. Sure, it can give you a positive insight. But you tend to hold onto it like it's the one and only direction.

Take what you said about 24 being a margin for established NT players for example. You said all good players, but you forgot the best: Andrea Pirlo, started being a first XI pick in 2004 or 2005, with about 25 years of age.

So, let's wait and see, I think it's the best direction we can take.

[Fillipo Simone]

Btw when do we play Bayern?

[X-Offender]

This is gone too far. You guys noticed how arbitrary your statements are?

Han, you made a selection of all kinds of players, from completely finished to completely green/not assessed ones. Comparing France and Italy is valid. The WC aside, Italy is doing considerably better in the past 10 years then France. I think up until now Italy had a better overall team and a better midfield.

Now, what will happen in the future is not so certain, because both sides have too many fresh faces that still need to be assessed properly. We really should cool off and let time take us into a certain direction here.

Other then that, football is no science. Han, you're constantly trying to take variables, trends, common occurrences and so on and turn them into hard facts. But it isn't working that way. Sure, it can give you a positive insight. But you tend to hold onto it like it's the one and only direction.

Take what you said about 24 being a margin for established NT players for example. You said all good players, but you forgot the best: Andrea Pirlo, started being a first XI pick in 2004 or 2005, with about 25 years of age.

So, let's wait and see, I think it's the best direction we can take.

Well said.

Btw when do we play Bayern?

Tomorrow, i.e. 4 August.

[Danny]

7:45UK I believe

[William405]

Yeah..just the normal night time CL games. It's 9:45 for me usually. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[han2503]

This is gone too far. You guys noticed how arbitrary your statements are?

Han, you made a selection of all kinds of players, from completely finished to completely green/not assessed ones. Comparing France and Italy is valid. The WC aside, Italy is doing considerably better in the past 10 years then France. I think up until now Italy had a better overall team and a better midfield.

Now, what will happen in the future is not so certain, because both sides have too many fresh faces that still need to be assessed properly. We really should cool off and let time take us into a certain direction here.

Other then that, football is no science. Han, you're constantly trying to take variables, trends, common occurrences and so on and turn them into hard facts. But it isn't working that way. Sure, it can give you a positive insight. But you tend to hold onto it like it's the one and only direction.

Take what you said about 24 being a margin for established NT players for example. You said all good players, but you forgot the best: Andrea Pirlo, started being a first XI pick in 2004 or 2005, with about 25 years of age.

So, let's wait and see, I think it's the best direction we can take.

How does my opinion of players' quality have much to do with trends, variables, etc, etc?

It is my opinion that it is harder for Kondogbia to break into the French NT first 11 than it is for Bertolacci. Why? Because Pogba is the guy standing in his way. That's not a trend or a prediction, it is a fact.

I also said that there are exceptions when it comes to when players break through a NT set-up. Pirlo's case is very unique as well as before Carlo really found him the position he's now known for he was struggling at Inter

Like I said before, this is all conjecture never denied that. But seriously, do you see anywhere near that talent in Bertolacci?

[han2503]

Anyway, back on topic.

Line-up for the Bayern game

(4-3-1-2): Lopez; De Sciglio, Zapata, Ely, Antonelli; Bonaventura, De Jong, Bertolacci; Honda; Bacca, Adriano.

Have to say that looks pretty good

Also, interesting to see Miha using Berto so much in these friendlies

Personally can't see him starting him in Serie A, but I get the impression that he's studying him seriously and is using all these friendlies to do just that

[William405]

****, forgot about it!

[han2503]

This is what I have been talking about all summer. Not having someone in the midfield who can keep a cool head, calm things down and help the rest by helping to keep possession for longer than a few seconds.

The players already looking wiped out from chasing shadows throughout this half. And when we do get the ball we can't make a string of 3 successful passes because we have no outlet in our mid

[han2503]

Lol, Zapata... Never learns

[Ry4n]

wow what a direr game...do we have a midfield (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

lump it forward to our small guys in attack rinse reverse...

pass between the defence back to goalkeper lump it foward...

At 30 minutes if i had'nt seen the lines up i would not have known bertolacci was even on the pitch like Marchiso for Juve he turns up and goes missing..



This post has been edited by Ry4n: Aug 4 2015, 08:37 PM

[Ry4n]

Lol, Zapata... Never learns

In his defence he has no one to pass to at all for how ever hard our midfield is working they just can't get three or four passes together..

[Ry4n]

This being all said the Bundesliga does start in 10 days time but meh we should be in there frame of mind and playing as well at this point..