[Rossoneri7]

Yeah, strange call R7. That's how we've always played last season, and that's the system we signed Ibra and Robinho for. 4-3-3 (or 4-2-1-3 if you like) is our natural habitat, why do you act so surprised?

Natural habitat ?

That was Leo's strategy and he had the team play a certain way in order for that to click. Yesterday was a mess in terms of the 4-3-3.

Bar this was Leo's (EDIT: Allegri's) only second official match, he should have stuck with the players that have been here last season. Those more accustomed to the 4-3-3. Then introduce the new boys.

This post has been edited by Rossoneri7: Sep 12 2010, 05:09 PM

[Rossoneri7]

Fielding those players together is the system we play. So suddenly we switch to a 2 striker formation with no genuine attacking midfielder/wingers?

1. Carlo made some horrible mistakes in his last 2 seasons as Milan coach, yet because of his past with Milan it was always brushed aside as the team playing badly and the board not giving him a good enough team, it was never his fault and his terrible decisions, decisions that are pretty similar to what Allegri did yesterday

2. Yes the FBs and DMs both attacking was our biggest problem, it's the problem we've been facing ever since the Rino-Ambro midfield combo was introduced by Carlo, we were always susceptible to counter due to this very reason. So it's ok for Carlo to make this mistake but not Allegri, ok got it. Also, like I said to Filippo, Allegri must have been under immense pressure to at least put out 1 of the major stars brought in from the men up above him. Galliani can talk all he wants about how it's up to Allegri, but we all know both him and Silvio stick their noses in, the only guy who hasn't listened to them was Leo, and we all know how that ended (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

3. I expec the same thing. But all cannot be blamed on him you have to look at the players as well. I'm sure Allegri didn't tell our DMs to attack as well when the FBs are up the pitch, but that's what we were seeing.

4. That I agree, and I don't think Allegri has any intention of playing all 4 together. the 4-3-3 is our system, and that's what we'll be playing for the majority of the games. It's the formation that most teams play these days, and imo it's not anymore attacking then when we used to play the 4-3-1-2 with Kaka, Sheva and Pippo upfront. It's a matter of balancing that midfield. Last night it was clearly non-existant, which was the biggest problem, not the attack

I thought you said Allegri was being conservative ?

1- Carlo, Saachi, Capello all made mistakes. But today noone points out to their flaws, Carlo only left in 2009 give him a few years and you will know what I am talking about.

2- Carlo introduced a Ringo and Ambro that were considered Anchors of the midfield. Today Ringo and Ambro are only shadows of. Yet I believe you have a point in that Allegri was Silvio's boy .. And right their might be our problem.

3- Well that is exactly what Allegri tells them to do ... probably something like 'put pressure to win back the ball in the opponents half' ...

4- I think thats where I'm going at han ... Allegri needs to first find the balance of the team, then play the 4-3-3 or 4-3-1-2 or whatever he pleases. Just get the team to click first.

[elcordobez]

Our natural habitat is having that fortress of midfielders around Pirlo lol

[han2503]

I thought you said Allegri was being conservative ?

1- Carlo, Saachi, Capello all made mistakes. But today noone points out to their flaws, Carlo only left in 2009 give him a few years and you will know what I am talking about.

2- Carlo introduced a Ringo and Ambro that were considered Anchors of the midfield. Today Ringo and Ambro are only shadows of. Yet I believe you have a point in that Allegri was Silvio's boy .. And right their might be our problem.

3- Well that is exactly what Allegri tells them to do ... probably something like 'put pressure to win back the ball in the opponents half' ...

4- I think thats where I'm going at han ... Allegri needs to first find the balance of the team, then play the 4-3-3 or 4-3-1-2 or whatever he pleases. Just get the team to click first.

The midfield/RB choices were conservative (which is what most people had a problem with), the attack is the one we've been playing all through last season and preseason. Imo it was a conservative line-up considering he could have gone with Abate at RB, Boateng instead of Rino in midfield. I don't really understand what you expected him to do in attack. The players brought in were chosen around the 4-3-3 design, hence the CF and the winger/forward.

1. I don't think I'll ever forget Carlo's era, it was riddled with so many controversies it's hard to forget. Capello and Sacchi didn't lead us into second halfs/second legs with 3 goal advantages as lose them. They delivered a lot of Championships as well, something Carlo only managed one. It's hard for anyone to forget some of the things that happened under Carlo (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

2. The Rino Ambro combo was always a disaster, it never worked well, the only exception was against Man U, that's the only time the system was played to perfection. It was a disaster in the league and the following CL/UEFA Cup campaigns after our win in 07

3.I highly doubt that since they were pressing up so high when we were in possession, thus the over conjestion around the opponent's box and Pirlo getting stuck trying to do what the DMs are supposed to be doing. If it was Seedorf I would understand telling him to push up, but not Rino and Ambro who both are terrible on the ball and aren't that particulary good at passing it either.

4. I think the team clicked just fine at Lecce, after he had the time to make it work, but suddenly the management give him 2 new compnents to make work. Also the midfield was a major problem, which is why I still believe that Allegri has Seedorf as a starter in his plans, not Boateng. He just didn't have that much time to make things work, he chose Rino-Ambro-pirlo in midfield because it's the safe option, it's a midfield that has played together hundreds of times and thought it would be more balanced then throwing in the erratic Boateng into the mix.

Personally I can't wait to see how we do against Auxerre, see if there is more cohesion in the team. Against Cesena it was 11 individuals doing their thing, while against Lecce it was a team unit moving together perfectly.

Btw, I'm going to ask again, who is brave enough to open the Auxerre thread? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Rossoneri7]

The midfield/RB choices were conservative (which is what most people had a problem with), the attack is the one we've been playing all through last season and preseason. Imo it was a conservative line-up considering he could have gone with Abate at RB, Boateng instead of Rino in midfield. I don't really understand what you expected him to do in attack. The players brought in were chosen around the 4-3-3 design, hence the CF and the winger/forward.

1. I don't think I'll ever forget Carlo's era, it was riddled with so many controversies it's hard to forget. Capello and Sacchi didn't lead us into second halfs/second legs with 3 goal advantages as lose them. They delivered a lot of Championships as well, something Carlo only managed one. It's hard for anyone to forget some of the things that happened under Carlo (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

2. The Rino Ambro combo was always a disaster, it never worked well, the only exception was against Man U, that's the only time the system was played to perfection. It was a disaster in the league and the following CL/UEFA Cup campaigns after our win in 07

3.I highly doubt that since they were pressing up so high when we were in possession, thus the over conjestion around the opponent's box and Pirlo getting stuck trying to do what the DMs are supposed to be doing. If it was Seedorf I would understand telling him to push up, but not Rino and Ambro who both are terrible on the ball and aren't that particulary good at passing it either.

4. I think the team clicked just fine at Lecce, after he had the time to make it work, but suddenly the management give him 2 new compnents to make work. Also the midfield was a major problem, which is why I still believe that Allegri has Seedorf as a starter in his plans, not Boateng. He just didn't have that much time to make things work, he chose Rino-Ambro-pirlo in midfield because it's the safe option, it's a midfield that has played together hundreds of times and thought it would be more balanced then throwing in the erratic Boateng into the mix.

Personally I can't wait to see how we do against Auxerre, see if there is more cohesion in the team. Against Cesena it was 11 individuals doing their thing, while against Lecce it was a team unit moving together perfectly.

Btw, I'm going to ask again, who is brave enough to open the Auxerre thread? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Bonera was always on the right wing throughout the game, bar his natural position 'cb' ... They man was deployed as a RW. I don't see how that was conservative.

Last season, under Leo we played the 4-3-3 only a month after the season started. Before that, we were trying out different alternatives.

1- You wont forget Carlo's era, but you forgot Capello and Saachi's second spells at the club too soon I presume (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

2- Against Man U it was the best performance of Milan in the past decade perhaps. Ambro and Gattuso at their prime were two of a kind, I can even recall United knocking on our doors more than once for his services. But that was then, and this is now.

3- Tell that to Allegri han (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

4- Agreed. But I still don't think he should have played with Ronnie - Ibra - Pato from the start. He should have taken a more conservative approach, where he eases in the newcomers. You could see Pato and Ibra running into each others path in almost every attempt. Moreover, Papastathopoulos ?! Yepes would have given much needed experience to lead the backline.

Against Auxerre, Allegri better read this post (IMG:style_emoticons/default/innocent.gif)

[X-Offender]

Natural habitat ?

That was Leo's strategy and he had the team play a certain way in order for that to click. Yesterday was a mess in terms of the 4-3-3.

Sure it was a mess, but that doesn't mean we'll have to change system. You said fielding Ronaldinho, Ibra and Pato at once wasn't conservative, whilst that's how we've been playing for about a year now, only that we had Borriello instead of Ibra. I agree with han, if Allegri had played Abate and Boateng/Robinho instead of Bonera and Gattuso, then yes, you'd have all right to whine about his tactics. But Allegri so far has been pretty much playing with the same formula Leo has, so I really don't see where you're trying to get at. Last night's line-up was conservative. How the team played though, well, that's another issue.

[han2503]

Bonera was always on the right wing throughout the game, bar his natural position 'cb' ... They man was deployed as a RW. I don't see how that was conservative.

Last season, under Leo we played the 4-3-3 only a month after the season started. Before that, we were trying out different alternatives.

1- You wont forget Carlo's era, but you forgot Capello and Saachi's second spells at the club too soon I presume (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

2- Against Man U it was the best performance of Milan in the past decade perhaps. Ambro and Gattuso at their prime were two of a kind, I can even recall United knocking on our doors more than once for his services. But that was then, and this is now.

3- Tell that to Allegri han (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

4- Agreed. But I still don't think he should have played with Ronnie - Ibra - Pato from the start. He should have taken a more conservative approach, where he eases in the newcomers. You could see Pato and Ibra running into each others path in almost every attempt. Moreover, Papastathopoulos ?! Yepes would have given much needed experience to lead the backline.

Against Auxerre, Allegri better read this post (IMG:style_emoticons/default/innocent.gif)

Bonera is a more defensive minded FB, sure he was pushing up, but I think that is where Rino came is. Obviously it wasn't working that way.

1. Comebacks were never our strong points. Capello and Sacchi's orignal spells at Milan could never be matched by Carlo, jmo.

2. Against Man U it worked so well, because they played that FB DMs, covering system to the T. In Serie A whether both Ambro and Rino were at their best it usually went bust. We were humilated by Inter twice that season, same thing against Roma and lost tonnes of points against so called weaker opposition. The xmas tree imo, was a huge failure, that Carlo kept insisting on for 3 seasons running, going so far as to miss the CL and getting KO'd by Arsenal in the San Siro.

3. I think that's what he intended. Maybe it was miscomunicated to the players. If we can see it surely Allegri can aswell, but then again, I think it;s just a system that will never work, under every coach, Carlo did it, Leo did it, and now Allegri has done it, and it usually fails big time.

4. Then tell me another formation we could have starter with, Pippo is not an ideal candidate for a 4-3-3, and as I've been saying countless times, Allegri was most probably under a lot of pressure to play Ibra no matter what. And this has been a major problem for all of our coaches, the interferance from B&G, and especially now that Silvio seems to suddenly have taken interest in the team again.

[Bluesummers]

What I find most funny about this is that you guys have such high expectations of Allegri. He is an upcoming serie A coach. He is no way a world class coach like mourinho or ancelotti. He is going to make mistakes and it takes time to learn from them.


If we are going to jump on his back everytime these things happen, lets just sack him now and not waste his time.



It takes at least 3 months before a coach can even begin to have an effect on a team and thats an unchanged team. We just brought in a striker with a completely different play style and approach to the game as well as a new winger than the ones were used to. Its going to take time for these players to adjust and gel together.


This goes as well for players like boateng and sokratis. They are not going to walk on team and play like nesta and seedorf do. The confidence just isn't there.


These guys are still in the phase of "OMG I actually play for ACM" When they get out of that phase and learn how to effectively communicate and understand how the ACM philosphy is like, we'll start producing results.

The same goes for our coach. Being at Cagliari and then moving to Milan is a big step! He jumped teams like lazio/roma/genoa where he should have gone first and recieved more experience. Its going to take him some time to understand the ACM mentality and how/why we do things the way we do.


---

We can debate tactics all we like but i'm going to say it isn't a tactical debate at all. What allegri had going on was excellent. Maybe gattuso was a questionable pick but i'd say everywhere else he was spot on. This result was produced due to reffing decisions and very fluky goals from cesena.

This about the team effectively understanding how the coach works and the coach understanding how the team works. Its going to take some time.


If we can give ancelotti 8 years, we can give allegri 1 at least.

This post has been edited by Bluesummers: Sep 12 2010, 09:34 PM

[Rossoneri7]

Bonera is a more defensive minded FB, sure he was pushing up, but I think that is where Rino came is. Obviously it wasn't working that way.

1. Comebacks were never our strong points. Capello and Sacchi's orignal spells at Milan could never be matched by Carlo, jmo.

2. Against Man U it worked so well, because they played that FB DMs, covering system to the T. In Serie A whether both Ambro and Rino were at their best it usually went bust. We were humilated by Inter twice that season, same thing against Roma and lost tonnes of points against so called weaker opposition. The xmas tree imo, was a huge failure, that Carlo kept insisting on for 3 seasons running, going so far as to miss the CL and getting KO'd by Arsenal in the San Siro.

3. I think that's what he intended. Maybe it was miscomunicated to the players. If we can see it surely Allegri can aswell, but then again, I think it;s just a system that will never work, under every coach, Carlo did it, Leo did it, and now Allegri has done it, and it usually fails big time.

4. Then tell me another formation we could have starter with, Pippo is not an ideal candidate for a 4-3-3, and as I've been saying countless times, Allegri was most probably under a lot of pressure to play Ibra no matter what. And this has been a major problem for all of our coaches, the interferance from B&G, and especially now that Silvio seems to suddenly have taken interest in the team again.

Regardless of what Bonera's natural position is han, he was pushing forward on numerous occasions.

1- Well, Saachi and Capello had those people you must have heard about those trio Dutchmen. Not to mention Berlusconi's hunger for trophies by the dozen at the time, where his wallet had no bottom. Those teams, were the envy of Europe.

Carlo did more with what he had, than any coach could have at the time, IMO. He brought back 8 trophies in 8 seasons with Milan. Categorize the importance of each as you like, nonetheless, each one remains crucial and just as important in the trophy cabinet in Milanello.

2- Humiliated by la merda was only natural han, especially after the 2006 scandal. Inter beat everyone in a humiliating fashion. Arsenal? Dude Kaka was limping in both London and Milan two legged affair. Not satisfied? Ok justify Leonardo's home and away hammering against la merda.

Here what I mean is, bar from 2006 to 2009, the man did a lot of good towards the club history than the dozens that predated him. Until, Allegri can or anyother, outdo him with respect to Milan's history I rank him right there with the top three.

3- You've seen Carlo play a 4-3-3 ? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

4- I think with Silvio, you either bend over and he hands you an XI to drool over. Or stick to your way of doing things and see where luck takes you. Allegri should bend over more (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Dracoris]

I guess that depends on your definition of "lash out". I must admit I think the term is ok to use in this case, but quite why you go on to suggest that it's ok to hit/slap/clobber/whatever an opponent in the face because it's a 'M'en's sport and all... nice touch with the capital M though.

Haha, man if you want to call that a hit, more power to you. If it was as bad as you seem to think, there would have been post game repercussions. I also didn't call it specifically a men's sport, so don't put words in my mouth trying to get me in trouble with the ladies on here. I said it was men playing the sport. Vast difference.

[han2503]

Regardless of what Bonera's natural position is han, he was pushing forward on numerous occasions.

1- Well, Saachi and Capello had those people you must have heard about those trio Dutchmen. Not to mention Berlusconi's hunger for trophies by the dozen at the time, where his wallet had no bottom. Those teams, were the envy of Europe.

Carlo did more with what he had, than any coach could have at the time, IMO. He brought back 8 trophies in 8 seasons with Milan. Categorize the importance of each as you like, nonetheless, each one remains crucial and just as important in the trophy cabinet in Milanello.

2- Humiliated by la merda was only natural han, especially after the 2006 scandal. Inter beat everyone in a humiliating fashion. Arsenal? Dude Kaka was limping in both London and Milan two legged affair. Not satisfied? Ok justify Leonardo's home and away hammering against la merda.

Here what I mean is, bar from 2006 to 2009, the man did a lot of good towards the club history than the dozens that predated him. Until, Allegri can or anyother, outdo him with respect to Milan's history I rank him right there with the top three.

3- You've seen Carlo play a 4-3-3 ? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

4- I think with Silvio, you either bend over and he hands you an XI to drool over. Or stick to your way of doing things and see where luck takes you. Allegri should bend over more (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

The Bonera debate is pointless. I think Allegri intended for him to go forward, that's why Rino was there. But obviously it was not woking that way. Whether this is Allegri's fault or the players' fault no one can really say since we weren't there to hear what he said to the players

1. Carlo had a great team as well, and Capello had a Van Basten that was already suffering a lot of injuries. Also in those days a squad wasn't as big as they were in Carlo's era, you were only allowed 3 foreigners also. During his time, Carlo had the best team in Europe, bar non imo. He could have done a lot more, especially considering how we went out of the CL twice. And don't get me started on the league

2. That's when you were saying that the xmas tree worked best, yet we didn't manage to win one single 'big' game in the league that season and generally struggled against the mid-level sides, Palermo home and away... The xmas tree was always a disaster imo, but it was a way for Carlo to play his favourites and use a defensive system.

3. I was talking about the midfield (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

4. But isn't that contradictory to what you have been saying? You wanted Allegri to not play Ibra or Robinho, yet you want him to bend over for Silvio. Imo playing Allegri was bending way over for Silvio as I'm 100% sure that Ibra was not ready to start the game

[Rossoneri7]

The Bonera debate is pointless. I think Allegri intended for him to go forward, that's why Rino was there. But obviously it was not woking that way. Whether this is Allegri's fault or the players' fault no one can really say since we weren't there to hear what he said to the players

1. Carlo had a great team as well, and Capello had a Van Basten that was already suffering a lot of injuries. Also in those days a squad wasn't as big as they were in Carlo's era, you were only allowed 3 foreigners also. During his time, Carlo had the best team in Europe, bar non imo. He could have done a lot more, especially considering how we went out of the CL twice. And don't get me started on the league

2. That's when you were saying that the xmas tree worked best, yet we didn't manage to win one single 'big' game in the league that season and generally struggled against the mid-level sides, Palermo home and away... The xmas tree was always a disaster imo, but it was a way for Carlo to play his favourites and use a defensive system.

3. I was talking about the midfield (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

4. But isn't that contradictory to what you have been saying? You wanted Allegri to not play Ibra or Robinho, yet you want him to bend over for Silvio. Imo playing Allegri was bending way over for Silvio as I'm 100% sure that Ibra was not ready to start the game

Bonera should have been sold ! We wouldnt be having this debate had he been sold you know (IMG:style_emoticons/default/96.gif)

1- What could Carlo do more ? Taking a team from a bad patch, to the top of Europe and the league. He brought a lot back to this club han ... If anything this man deserves more, whether you are a fan or not is irrelevant. Did you not fall in love with this team during his tenure? Or am I mistaking you with someone else?

2- That is exactly it han, you keep referring to seasons post 2006. Those are a given, everything that happened after 2006 went la merda's way. Nothing came our way, look at Juve they are still suffering.

4- You wanna know what I think of Allegri? Ok, he is a tactician who has proven his tactical prowess in Cagliari. He is one of the top coaches to have come out in recent years. But his biggest test is upon him, he has yet to prove his worth at a massive club like ours.

Carlo at Juve had the same problem, he was a revelation at Parma and had his stint at Juve, which didn't go his way, although he did finish in 2nd twice (if i recall correctly). He came to Milan, won the Scudetto in 2004, 2nd place in 2005, 2nd place in 2006 ... Anything after 2006 in Italy shifted to la merda, if you think we had a chance then I have no more arguments.

[alskor]

The three biggest issues IMO:

1) Ronaldinho - Stinks. Didn't track the Cesena fullbacks at all and allowed them to attack at will. He just hung around in the offensive zone doing nothing, not moving without the ball and occasionally clogging up play by trying needlessly fancy through balls and dribbling nowhere. In addition, rather than play on the wing at all he insisted on coming inside and trying to occupy the same space as Ibra. Terrible performance. I had hoped he would be reinvigorated with Ibra's physical play giving him space but I just don't think this is going to work. Robinho needs to start over him. Even if we can't get the defensive play out of Robinho we can at least be sure he'll play wide. Ronaldinho just doesn't work unless you're making him the centerpiece of your attack and have defensive forwards/wingers to cover his deficiencies. There is absolutely no reason Milan should make him the centerpiece. Older team without the capability of covering for him and, quite frankly, we have better players to be the focus on attack. I have no idea how this is going to work... he may have to leave in January because its going to be eminently clear very soon - if its not already - that he doesn't fit on this team. What creativity he brings on attack is majorly outweighed by his liabilities at this point. He won't work in this role in a 4-3-3... its really a question of changing everything else the team does or sitting him, IMO.

2) I Centrocampisti - You absolutely can't play Rino and Ambro next to Pirlo. This trio should never be seen together again. Gave no width, got dominated in possession in the midfield and was a weak link defensively even! If we have Pirlo as a regista you need to play a dedicated defensive/holding mid. next to him. Boateng is likely the solution here. One of Ambro or Gattuso works... but you can't play them as box to box guys at their age. I thought the way the mids were used was really poor, even beyond the selection issues. Pirlo is a liability of sorts in midfield, since he has little speed and diminished defensive ability at his age (not that it was ever great).

3) The defensive line - Bonera at RB was a disaster. The team totally relied on the FBs to provide width... which was a dubious plan anyway with Nesta out. Our fullbacks just don't have this kind of ability and they were asked to do too much with the elderly midfielders a major issue. Papastathopoulos was awful. Looked lost. I think we were all shocked by how ineffective Thiago Silva was... I don't want to judge him too harshly as its easy to try to do too much when you see a number of other parts aren't working and want to cover for them. We definitely need to either:

a ) Invest in an upgrade at RB ASAP; OR

b ) Use midfielders for width instead of fullbacks going forward as much. This is what I had assumed would happen and was surprised to see the fullbacks going forward as much; OR

c ) Play one of the mids (Boateng? Ambro could but hasn't shown a proclivity for this style of play in the past) in a more defensive role, having him drop down to the defensive line when the fullbacks bomb forward. I think this would be a better fit with the way Allegri plays - or at least the preferences he showed at Cagliari.

[Jack Sparrow]

The past 2-3 pages have been kickass!!! Oh my sweet lord, do I dare believe my precious forum is back??!! It's like waking up to find Milan's XI are suddenly the 2002-05 squad!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)

But anyway...

@All you lovely people, I'll be taking bits and pieces of your ideas without quoting, but you'll recognise them:


- The idea behind Allegri's 4-3-3 was the same as the one we had when we we played ManU. The full backs are supposed to attack, while the DMs not only cover space when FBs go up, but when defending also heavily restrict the effectiveness of our opposing wingers. Against Cesena whose main strength is their wing, this was not a bad plan at all on paper. But was this implemented correctly?? No!! Rino was up when he should have been down, and vice versa.

- Even though both Ambro and Rino are designated DMs....at any given time depending on where the ball is (left flank or right flank)..one of them has to act as a 'water carrier' when we're in possession. Blessed are the water-carriers.

- Cesena did one thing smart upon seeing the Milan line-up. They baited our mid-field, ganging up on Pirlo, while leaving inviting spaces for Rino and Ambro. And I'm ashamed to say we took it. I have to say this is the reason we saw what we did - Rino and Ambro charging up into space while Pirlo is left out to dry when they counter. If either of them lost possession we were in trouble. And Bonera I have to admit on the right was a bit indisciplined. He should have covered the space left open by Rino gallivating forward. On the whole our right side was our weak side....and often pulled our left out of sync, since Ambro or Pirlo was trying to cover for the holes there (Allegri's comment about playing without a plan aka breaking with the actual strategy). Just read Bonera's comments post-match on the official website. He knows he screwed up. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

If any of you have played war strategy games, it's the equivalent of an army breaking formation, because they seem to see space that given an 'immediate' advantage, which leads to the larger plan being brought into disarray.

We missed Seedorf like hell. Gang up and playa-hate as much as you like. That man is a footballing genius. He is the brains behind the marshalling of our mid-field and can read the blueprint of the game like few others. Even Pirlo has a smaller vision of the game than Seedorf. And you can see how much Pirlo misses not having Zee around. He has nobody with the same spectrum of thought as him.

- What should we have done bar changing the lineup? Closed down the right side entirely. Just shut it down. Bonera stays back, so does Rino who only shepherds Pirlo/acts as a spoiler for the right flank. He's still one of the best body-guards in the business. R80 would have to drop a bit deeper and play nearly alongside Pirlo in the first one-third of the opposing pitch. Pato and Ibra would then both roam free swapping places and confusing markers, while Ambro acts as the sole water carrier.

-----Pato------ <fluid>
---Ibra--------- <fluid>
-----R80-----Pirlo---
---------Ambro-----
----------------Rino----
---Ants----Silva---Sok----Bonera

Now I feel this should have been the plan. But there's little a coach can do from the sidelines, if the original plan is supposed to work, but the players don't implement it.

- Do you yell at the players to stick to the actual plan?
- Or do you consider it one of those days, and make plan B??

I don't think playing Ibra was the problem. Everything went wrong during game-play. Going one goal down was fine. The disallowed goals even if just one had been given, would have changed the texture of the match. And finally the second goal was a nail in the coffin.

[han2503]

Bonera should have been sold ! We wouldnt be having this debate had he been sold you know (IMG:style_emoticons/default/96.gif)

1- What could Carlo do more ? Taking a team from a bad patch, to the top of Europe and the league. He brought a lot back to this club han ... If anything this man deserves more, whether you are a fan or not is irrelevant. Did you not fall in love with this team during his tenure? Or am I mistaking you with someone else?

2- That is exactly it han, you keep referring to seasons post 2006. Those are a given, everything that happened after 2006 went la merda's way. Nothing came our way, look at Juve they are still suffering.

4- You wanna know what I think of Allegri? Ok, he is a tactician who has proven his tactical prowess in Cagliari. He is one of the top coaches to have come out in recent years. But his biggest test is upon him, he has yet to prove his worth at a massive club like ours.

Carlo at Juve had the same problem, he was a revelation at Parma and had his stint at Juve, which didn't go his way, although he did finish in 2nd twice (if i recall correctly). He came to Milan, won the Scudetto in 2004, 2nd place in 2005, 2nd place in 2006 ... Anything after 2006 in Italy shifted to la merda, if you think we had a chance then I have no more arguments.

1. Forget about after 06, before that when he had that squad in it's prime he should have at least won another Scudetto. The CL mistakes especially Istanbul considering the years before should have never happened.

2. Maybe the 06/07 season the team was still reeling from the scandal. but after that he should have atleast put up a challenge for the title, and even more, atleast managed to keep us in the CL!

3. Yes he still has to prove himself. But I think all this I don't trust him to coach Milan, he cannot handle the stars on the team talk is all BS and is extremely premature, considering we only played 2 official games under him and until a few days ago he was still being hailed by some as the second coming...

Carlo at Juve was an almost man, one of the Scudetto's he lost on the final day is just unbelievable, and explains why all the Juve fans hate him so much

The three biggest issues IMO:

1) Ronaldinho - Stinks. Didn't track the Cesena fullbacks at all and allowed them to attack at will. He just hung around in the offensive zone doing nothing, not moving without the ball and occasionally clogging up play by trying needlessly fancy through balls and dribbling nowhere. In addition, rather than play on the wing at all he insisted on coming inside and trying to occupy the same space as Ibra. Terrible performance. I had hoped he would be reinvigorated with Ibra's physical play giving him space but I just don't think this is going to work. Robinho needs to start over him. Even if we can't get the defensive play out of Robinho we can at least be sure he'll play wide. Ronaldinho just doesn't work unless you're making him the centerpiece of your attack and have defensive forwards/wingers to cover his deficiencies. There is absolutely no reason Milan should make him the centerpiece. Older team without the capability of covering for him and, quite frankly, we have better players to be the focus on attack. I have no idea how this is going to work... he may have to leave in January because its going to be eminently clear very soon - if its not already - that he doesn't fit on this team. What creativity he brings on attack is majorly outweighed by his liabilities at this point. He won't work in this role in a 4-3-3... its really a question of changing everything else the team does or sitting him, IMO.

2) I Centrocampisti - You absolutely can't play Rino and Ambro next to Pirlo. This trio should never be seen together again. Gave no width, got dominated in possession in the midfield and was a weak link defensively even! If we have Pirlo as a regista you need to play a dedicated defensive/holding mid. next to him. Boateng is likely the solution here. One of Ambro or Gattuso works... but you can't play them as box to box guys at their age. I thought the way the mids were used was really poor, even beyond the selection issues. Pirlo is a liability of sorts in midfield, since he has little speed and diminished defensive ability at his age (not that it was ever great).

3) The defensive line - Bonera at RB was a disaster. The team totally relied on the FBs to provide width... which was a dubious plan anyway with Nesta out. Our fullbacks just don't have this kind of ability and they were asked to do too much with the elderly midfielders a major issue. Papastathopoulos was awful. Looked lost. I think we were all shocked by how ineffective Thiago Silva was... I don't want to judge him too harshly as its easy to try to do too much when you see a number of other parts aren't working and want to cover for them. We definitely need to either:

a ) Invest in an upgrade at RB ASAP; OR

b ) Use midfielders for width instead of fullbacks going forward as much. This is what I had assumed would happen and was surprised to see the fullbacks going forward as much; OR

c ) Play one of the mids (Boateng? Ambro could but hasn't shown a proclivity for this style of play in the past) in a more defensive role, having him drop down to the defensive line when the fullbacks bomb forward. I think this would be a better fit with the way Allegri plays - or at least the preferences he showed at Cagliari.

1. You're being way too harsh on Ronaldinho, he wasn't cutting in field at all, he was completely iscolated on that left side and couldn't do anything about it. The attackers need o also adapt to eachother. Borri used to just stand and Pato and Ronnie could play off of him, Ibra is different. They barely had 2 days full training together.

2. I agree

3. Thiago and Sokratis were having trouble communicating with eachother, thus the many mixups in the defense ensued. They need to work with eachother in order to be prepared when Nesta is injured, a better team would have punished them for all the mistakes they were making