[dst]

That's not what I meant. I was implying that Pele is.. not the best player in history, or in the top *enter whatever number you want here* players in history.

I despise the guy as much as the next guy but you are going too far with this statement... you have not even seen a full match of him pal...

[kurtsimonw]

I despise the guy as much as the next guy but you are going too far with this statement... you have not even seen a full match of him pal...

I've seen some World Cup finals, but yes, you're right. I haven't seen enough of him to say, so how can I say he's in the top 100 or so footballers of all time? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I just use common sense really. Internation football, up until about the late 80s was very, very weak. The kind of weak where the likes of Brazil, England, Italy, Germany, etc. could put out players from their 2nd division and still beat 90% of the Worlds nations, comfortabley. So to praise him as World class for this.. nah, he was a good player in a good team, but at this sort of time being good was enough to win you things on the international stage. He also played in a weak league. The Brazilian league still isn't that great, it produces a few good players, but the Argentine league is ALOT better, and even that doesn't come close to comparing with Europes top leagues now, forget 40 years ago.

Just my opinion on it. So saying Pele isn't in the top 100 players ever? Yeah, I'll stand by that.

[Giancarlo]

The Brazilian league is far superior compared to the Argentine league. The Brazilian league produces far more talents, even these days, that are more sought after than Argentina. Argentina simply lacks something that Brazil has. I'll put Pele on the level of a football god because that is what he was. He was most certainly world class.

Sobis on the other hand is rubbish. He's NOT world class.

[Fillipo Simone]

Pele should be happy that I even consider him in the same league as Sobis.. which I don't.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif) ..

I don't know what to say about this but your viewpoint is very wrong.

Internation football, up until about the late 80s was very, very weak. The kind of weak where the likes of Brazil, England, Italy, Germany, etc. could put out players from their 2nd division and still beat 90% of the Worlds nations, comfortabley

You want to say that now Germany, Italy and Brazil cannot beat 90% of the other Worlds nations? Like Burma, Cuba, Jamaica, Botswana? Anyway, international football is not about beating the other 99%, it's about the world cup. Yes, I agree, nowdays teams like Equador or Mexico put up much more then 40 years ago. But still, there were some great teams besides Italy, Brazil, Germany and England. You had a strong Sweden, Poland, Yugoslavia, and many more.

Anyway, to compare Pele with Sobis, and then approach to that comparison in such a disrespectfull manner was unnecessary at least.

[Zed.D]

I disagree. Pato in Serie A would be better than Sobis in Serie A, I agree. But you put Pato in La Liga? I think Sobis would be a better player over a season.

I completely disagree! if there's one league Pato can play up to his true potential, it's La Liga. Serie A is more defensive and man-marking in it is just crazy, not to mention that its defenders are head and shoulders above La Liga defenders. in La Liga they tend to play more attack-oriented foorball, consequently they usually leave LOTS of spaces in their 1/3. that's the most ideal thing for the Duck as he has both technique and speed. he can definitely be a success in Spain as well. maybe even more successful than in Serie A - because [IMO] Serie A is the hardest league for a striker.

(By the way, I'm only talking about Pato. I don't know Sobis that well)

[kurtsimonw]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif) ..

I don't know what to say about this but your viewpoint is very wrong.

Don't worry, I was exaggerating there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif) ..

I don't know what to say about this but your viewpoint is very wrong.


You want to say that now Germany, Italy and Brazil cannot beat 90% of the other Worlds nations? Like Burma, Cuba, Jamaica, Botswana? Anyway, international football is not about beating the other 99%, it's about the world cup. Yes, I agree, nowdays teams like Equador or Mexico put up much more then 40 years ago. But still, there were some great teams besides Italy, Brazil, Germany and England. You had a strong Sweden, Poland, Yugoslavia, and many more.

You mis-read what I said. I said that the top nations back then could beat 90% of the other nations WITH THEIR RESERVES. I don't think it's so easy nowadays, lower nations put up a good fight against the first team, let alone reserves.

But at the end of the day, some people will have to learn to accept that it is my opinion that Pele is ridiculously over-rated. I wouldn't mind people disagreeing, but an opinion on someones footballing ability is very subjective. Pele is not around today, so just like I can't say it's a fact that everyone nowadays is better than Pele, nobody can say that it's a fact that Pele is better than anyone currently playing, since he'll never be able to compete with them.

Disagree all you like, it's not going to change my opinion, and it doesn't mean that you're right or anything.

This post has been edited by kurtsimonw: Aug 19 2008, 10:28 AM

[Fillipo Simone]

I can name you now, in 2008, about 10 kids who were inspired by Pele.

The same cannot be applied to Sobis, and never will. But okay,..I understand. It's a different opinion on him you have. I respect that. But i'd be glad you respect Pele a bit more.

[Zed.D]

But at the end of the day, some people will have to learn to accept that it is my opinion that Pele is ridiculously over-rated.

Pele was great for 'him time', Kurt. of course now they are tens of strikers who are better than Pele would have been now. but 30-40 years ago, there weren't many, if any. someday football will improve so much that not only Maradona, but even Messi or Ronaldo or Kaka will not be appreciated like they're appreciated now. we don't know at what rate football is progressing though. that day could be in 2020's, or could be in 2090's!

I wouldn't mind people disagreeing, but an opinion on someones footballing ability is very subjective. Pele is not around today, so just like I can't say it's a fact that everyone nowadays is better than Pele, nobody can say that it's a fact that Pele is better than anyone currently playing, since he'll never be able to compete with them.

That is true.

Look at the keepers in 50's, 60' and even 70's. they look like a bunch of geeks, but that is how good goalkeepers were back then. they were not bad for their time. nowadays goalkeepers do amazing stuff. save shots that would've looked impossible to save for those old keeper. a few decades from now, the same WILL be said about Buffon and Casillas and etc. are they bad or overrated goalkeepers now? no. it's just like Pele's case. you can't measure his abilities with today's standards and say he was was overrated.

Just my honest $0.02 (sorry acid!).

This post has been edited by zdrossoneri: Aug 19 2008, 11:55 AM

[acid911]

Just my honest $0.02 (sorry acid!).

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) Agree with everything you said. Great, honest post!

[kurtsimonw]

Pele was great for 'his time', Kurt. of course now they are tens of strikers who are better than Pele would have been now.

I think you summed it up for me there.

Pele, good for his time? Certainly. One of the best ever? Not for me.

I have no problem with people saying Pele was the greatest players for his time , but it's when they label him footballs greatest ever player.. it's just outrageous for me.

Anyways, this Pele debate has gone on too much!

[Zed.D]

I think you summed it up for me there.

Pele, good for his time? Certainly. One of the best ever? Not for me.

I have no problem with people saying Pele was the greatest players for his time , but it's when they label him footballs greatest ever player.. it's just outrageous for me.

Anyways, this Pele debate has gone on too much!

Then there is no such thing as greatest players ever. you name every player you want and I say there will be a better one someday. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[drucurl]

This thread has passed ignorant and is quickly passing "completely inane" as well. Pele not good as the strikers today???? Lolzzzz (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif) Pele was the best....only Ronaldo and Maradonna did comparable things....This is UNBELIEVABLE!!!!! Try doing some research befor you talk out of your @$$e$. Pele could do all of those tricks that make people think CR7 and Ronaldinho are gods. He was the ultimate assassain and played in an era where defenders were not as good as they are today no doubt.....but that's why they compensated for it by plain straight up VIOLENCE........It was only till Marco Van Basten kept getting injured that they stopped certain harmful defensive manouvers like tackling from behind.....Pele played in an era where racism infiltrated football to the extent that for a black player to get a foul you probably had to injure him for life......and he surpassed these odds to still win as much as he did.

The other thing is Sobis has gotten less time on the pitch and has scored more goals than Pato......how that makes him average or crap amazes me. Not because a player wears our jersey is he automaticaly a majority stakeholded on the "best in his position" title. BE OBJECTIVE!!

[Jack Sparrow]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)


Oooooh....now I smell some knives being sharpened! Oh golly...flame war!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

[Zed.D]

The other thing is Sobis has gotten less time on the pitch and has scored more goals than Pato

Are you comparing 19yo Pato with 23yo Sobis? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif) are you comparing someone who's played 4 professional seasons with one who's played 1 and half?

You're not making any sense my friend, besides last time I checked Pato scored 9 goals in 18 games in highest level (Milan - Serie A), and Sobis has scored 8 goals in 57 games in a way lower level (Betis - La Liga). just because he hasn't found his form with the Selecao yet doesn't mean anything.

[Tennie]

Let's keep it a civil flame war, though, shall we?(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Or else...... (IMG:http://www.pic4ever.com/images/shrk.gif)

The fish doll might get angry. You wouldn't like him when he's angry.